Nedra & Patsy's sisters

[Dru]

Your argument is good - it is. But it is also possible that she appeared dead to them and that they could tell that her head was almost in half, all they had to do was feel it. And whoever inflicted it, HEARD it. So they may have believed she is dead and the resulting staging which included a strangling by garrotte came later and was intended to throw the police off.

And I do not think it is as simple as "lets see what can I find to stab her in the vaginal area'. I think that Patsy was out of her mind and John right along with her. I think we can see that she is not thinking straight by the 3 page note and the handwriting of that note is extremely shakey. So whoever is writing it is terrified - so terrified that they left bruises on JonBenet's brain by shaking her - trying to wake her - what else?

Solace, see my reply to CK.

Also, here's something to consider. If they really, truly believed that JBR was dead as a result of the head blow, why would they use the garrote to "throw the police off?" If JBR had actually and in fact been strangled after she was dead, the autopsy would have illustrated that at once, and the parents would look even more suspicious than they already did!!!

This is further evidence, to me, that whoever strangled JBR must have realized that she was still alive at that moment; because even the most novice reader/watcher of mysteries (as PR and JR both were) would know that an autopsy would uncover the real cause of death, and that faking a method that had nothing to do with the death would only get you arrested that much faster.

 

[JMO8778]

Neither do I; that is, I don't think someone planned this particular crime--the crime itself shows the disorganization and lack of forethought.

However, I do think that once someone had 'snapped' he or she decided to make sure that JBR was dead.

If the person who struck the head blow really believed that JBR was dead, why were either the vaginal wound or the garrote really necessary? Couldn't a murder have been staged by simply placing some blunt instrument (flashlight, golf club, fireplace poker etc.) near the child's body and leaving the RN? In fact, such a scenario would have better matched the RN: a helpless child struggling to escape her kidnappers is killed by them when they attempt to silence her; panicked, they leave, and leave her body behind.

The sexual wound and garrote are unnecessary complications; moreover, they will undoubtedly have the effect of focusing the attention more on the parents, rather than less. And no matter how rattled they were, I believe that JR at the very least would have known that!

I think the garrotte and sexual wound matched the RN,when the prior plan was to get her body out of the house.The garrotte counts for the 'beheaded' content,and they alerted LE,not telling them to lay low...thus the 'reason' for her death.
As far as the sexual wound,I think it was to cover past abuse,in case her body was found,it would appear she was abducted and assaulted,but that JR didn't do it bc she was outside the home when found.That makes the whole world a suspect.

 

[JMO8778]

Solace, see my reply to CK.

Also, here's something to consider. If they really, truly believed that JBR was dead as a result of the head blow, why would they use the garrote to "throw the police off?" If JBR had actually and in fact been strangled after she was dead, the autopsy would have illustrated that at once, and the parents would look even more suspicious than they already did!!!

This is further evidence, to me, that whoever strangled JBR must have realized that she was still alive at that moment; because even the most novice reader/watcher of mysteries (as PR and JR both were) would know that an autopsy would uncover the real cause of death, and that faking a method that had nothing to do with the death would only get you arrested that much faster.

I'm don't think they were thinking very clearly that night,but I think JB's neck had marks on it from manual strangulation,which,clearly it does...and the ligature was an attempt to cover for that,ie,a reason for how she was choked.

 

[Solace]

Neither do I; that is, I don't think someone planned this particular crime--the crime itself shows the disorganization and lack of forethought.

However, I do think that once someone had 'snapped' he or she decided to make sure that JBR was dead.

If the person who struck the head blow really believed that JBR was dead, why were either the vaginal wound or the garrote really necessary? Couldn't a murder have been staged by simply placing some blunt instrument (flashlight, golf club, fireplace poker etc.) near the child's body and leaving the RN? In fact, such a scenario would have better matched the RN: a helpless child struggling to escape her kidnappers is killed by them when they attempt to silence her; panicked, they leave, and leave her body behind.

The sexual wound and garrote are unnecessary complications; moreover, they will undoubtedly have the effect of focusing the attention more on the parents, rather than less. And no matter how rattled they were, I believe that JR at the very least would have known that!

Dru, this is not a murder committed by serial killers. This is an unintentional murder and the resulting cover up. I really do not think that John and Patsy were thinking that forensics would be able to tell if she is dead already. And you know what, forensics so far has yet to say which occurred first, it is still open to debate. I believe the head wound occurred first. As far as the sexual wound focusing more on the parents, members of the grand jury did verbally say that they did not believe a parent could do this. So it worked as the Ramseys planned. It did not focus on them more - not in the grand jury's eyes anyway.

 

[Solace]

I'm don't think they were thinking very clearly that night,but I think JB's neck had marks on it from manual strangulation,which,clearly it does...and the ligature was an attempt to cover for that,ie,a reason for how she was choked.

Not bad JMO, I did not think of that. But you are probably right that the garrotte was used for that reason also.

 

[JMO8778]

Not bad JMO, I did not think of that. But you are probably right that the garrotte was used for that reason also.

I meant to ask you a question on that,as I do believe you are correct about the mark on her neck being a thumbprint.
There are also the other abrasions on her neck and face,that appear to be ring or knuckle marks from where she was manually strangled w/ the shirt collar,per ST's book.
So it appears she was manually strangled more than once?B/c the thumb print is on the front of her neck,and the other marks are below her chin(? I think) and the other 2 are on the side of her neck,below her ear.
If so,I wonder which marks were from the ones that caused the head wound from where she was thrown,if that's what caused it,(b/c I don't rule out her being choked w/ one hand and then hit upon the head with the flashlight at the same time,either).It does seem likely to be from one fell swoop,but it seems she was strangled at least once or twice bf that?Any thoughts?

 

[Dru]

Dru, this is not a murder committed by serial killers. This is an unintentional murder and the resulting cover up. I really do not think that John and Patsy were thinking that forensics would be able to tell if she is dead already. And you know what, forensics so far has yet to say which occurred first, it is still open to debate. I believe the head wound occurred first. As far as the sexual wound focusing more on the parents, members of the grand jury did verbally say that they did not believe a parent could do this. So it worked as the Ramseys planned. It did not focus on them more - not in the grand jury's eyes anyway.

Solace, all due respect, but you don't have to be a serial killer to know that a discrepancy between the apparent cause of death and the actual cause of death is going to be a huge red flag to LE.

IF JR and PR really believed that the head blow had killed JBR, they would never have used the garrote, because JBR would be dead of a fractured skull, not asphyxiation!

Only if someone knew that JBR had really been strangled, manually or otherwise, does the garrote make any sense.

Now, I know that a lot of people point to the turtleneck, and say it was used to strangle JBR, but I don't think the forensic evidence supports that theory. Not only that, but PR begins to cry after saying the words, "A crown," after having been shown the picture of the balled-up turtleneck, so I'm not completely convinced that her emotional reaction is to the turtleneck itself.

Here's the quote, from the 6/98 interview:

23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red
24 item in the upper right-hand corner?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a
0266
1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,
2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites
3 and she didn't want to wear it.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up
5 there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A
7 crown. Oh, God.
8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.
9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,
10 how's that sound? We will come back.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE
12 RESPONSE.)

 

[UKGuy]

Solace, see my reply to CK.

Also, here's something to consider. If they really, truly believed that JBR was dead as a result of the head blow, why would they use the garrote to "throw the police off?" If JBR had actually and in fact been strangled after she was dead, the autopsy would have illustrated that at once, and the parents would look even more suspicious than they already did!!!

This is further evidence, to me, that whoever strangled JBR must have realized that she was still alive at that moment; because even the most novice reader/watcher of mysteries (as PR and JR both were) would know that an autopsy would uncover the real cause of death, and that faking a method that had nothing to do with the death would only get you arrested that much faster.

Dru,

JonBenet's killer knew JonBenet was still alive, this is why she was strangled to death.

Its patently obvious JonBenet's killer intended her to die, she could have been offered medical assistance, this was denied, at various points her killer knew she was alive but still inflicted serious injury upon JonBenet, and there is absolutely nothing the apologists for JonBenet's killer can say to contradict this.

Coroner Meyer's autopys report states:

CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
trauma.

That is unambiguously saying JonBenet was asphyxiated, the method was strangulation, and oxygen depletion due to her head injury simply exacerbated the process of hypoxia.

So its perfectly possible that JonBenet was strangled twice, once manually, then again very deliberately using a ligature, which was then tied later onto the paintbrush handle to construct a garrote. Note in the autopsy the term ligature is used not garrote.

This can imply that the person who killed JonBenet and the person who constructed her staged crime-scene are two different people, since in either instance a homicide took place then another persons interpretation of a homicide was created leading to the classical staging errors.

So lets assume JonBenet's killer dropped or swung her head accidentally in a rage or not, against some hard surface, ok, so now you have JonBenet lying unconcious, possibly moaning, blood and mucous seeping from her mouth and nostrils, but still alive, remember its supposedly accidental, unintentional, what is the response, do we dial 911, phone for our private doctor to attend, phone for ER?

No what occurs next is that JonBenet is manually strangled, or was she sexually assaulted, either way the fact she is alive is of no concern, since blood flows from her vaginal wound, next a ligature is placed around her upper neck, and pulled tight, by all accounts its this that finally kills JonBenet?

This sequence of events or some variation thereof tells you JonBenet was deliberately killed, the staging was preplanned, making her death premeditated, not simply an unintentional consequence of some unknown and imagined rage assault.


.

 

[gracefuljf1505]

Jay78,

Because Nedra and Pam both knew who killed JonBenet; and it wasn't Patsy.

BlueCrab

If that is the truth then why is it that th epolice never did actually rule them out and that police officers wrot ebooks about PR murdering JB? I still think that the ramsey's did it if it wasnt them then i dont have any idea who it could be..you cant just look at teh sercumstantial evidence you hav eto use common sense in these things as well...and all common sence evidence points to the ramseys. that is my opinion!

 

[JMO8778]

Not bad JMO, I did not think of that. But you are probably right that the garrotte was used for that reason also.

it seems there were 3 bases to cover on the staging..the head wound,which her hair was rearranged to hide,the ligature to hide the manaul strangling(which they didn't do a very good job of),and the vaginal wound to cover past abuse.
also something else that struck me,is that Patsy's fiber evidence is all at the top of her head and neck,while JR's is on her vaginal wound.
So did they each do the staging on the parts of her body they felt they needed to do to cover what they wanted to hide?

 

[UKGuy]

it seems there were 3 bases to cover on the staging..the head wound,which her hair was rearranged to hide,the ligature to hide the manaul strangling(which they didn't do a very good job of),and the vaginal wound to cover past abuse.
also something else that struck me,is that Patsy's fiber evidence is all at the top of her head and neck,while JR's is on her vaginal wound.
So did they each do the staging on the parts of her body they felt they needed to do to cover what they wanted to hide?

JMO8778,

Not unless JonBenet's sexual assault predates her asphyxiation and head blow, and the staging is what comes later?


.

 

[UKGuy]

If that is the truth then why is it that th epolice never did actually rule them out and that police officers wrot ebooks about PR murdering JB? I still think that the ramsey's did it if it wasnt them then i dont have any idea who it could be..you cant just look at teh sercumstantial evidence you hav eto use common sense in these things as well...and all common sence evidence points to the ramseys. that is my opinion!

gracefuljf1505,

BlueCrab has a theory that considers that a third party, possibly an invited guest killed JonBenet and that Burke may have been either witness or party to this?

That is the Ramsey's are covering up for Burke aided by the Colorado child privacy laws?

This is why he says
Because Nedra and Pam both knew who killed JonBenet; and it wasn't Patsy.!


.

 

[JMO8778]

Solace, all due respect, but you don't have to be a serial killer to know that a discrepancy between the apparent cause of death and the actual cause of death is going to be a huge red flag to LE.

IF JR and PR really believed that the head blow had killed JBR, they would never have used the garrote, because JBR would be dead of a fractured skull, not asphyxiation!

Only if someone knew that JBR had really been strangled, manually or otherwise, does the garrote make any sense.

Now, I know that a lot of people point to the turtleneck, and say it was used to strangle JBR, but I don't think the forensic evidence supports that theory. Not only that, but PR begins to cry after saying the words, "A crown," after having been shown the picture of the balled-up turtleneck, so I'm not completely convinced that her emotional reaction is to the turtleneck itself.

Here's the quote, from the 6/98 interview:

23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red
24 item in the upper right-hand corner?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a
0266
1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,
2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites
3 and she didn't want to wear it.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up
5 there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A
7 crown. Oh, God.
8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.
9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,
10 how's that sound? We will come back.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE
12 RESPONSE.)

good point on the crown;I was going by ST's book,hardback,p. 228:

In a 3 page report,forensics expert Dr Werner Spitz furnished a logical sequence of events on the night JonBenet was killed.

-First there had been a manual strangulation,by twisting the collar of the shirt,with the perpetrator's knuckles causing the neck abrasion.That was consistant with a rage type attack.
-Then came the devastating head blow,followed by the garrote strangulation.The detectives felt this could have been done either to ensure death or as part of a staging.Another Dr. said that the head was hit with great force and that the cracking skull would have made a tremendous noise.It was agreed that the cord around the throat was applied to a victim who offered little or no resistance,probably as she lay grievously wounded by the head injury.(I think the staged vaginal wound occured right here,right b/f the ligature strangling)
-By examining the condition of the pineapple in the stomach and the rate of digestion,Spitz put the time of death "about or before 1AM".
*The 1 am is interesting IMO..the neighbor reportedly saw the FL light in the kitchen around 12 -midnite.Was the neighbor mistaken,or did her death occur earlier than midnite?If both are correct,then that could indicate this was possibly planned??
____

It seems there is some evidence on the shirt being held back???

 

[Albert18]

So, Albert18, you think that PR looked down at the apparently lifeless form of her daughter and thought, "Hmmm. I don't want to go to jail for this. Let's see...what can I use to stab her in the vaginal area and make this look like a sex crime?"

I'm sorry if that's too graphic, but please consider the situation. We have to believe that PR, and JR too if he was helping her, decided to defile their daughter to make her death look like a sex crime, then changed their minds, "lovingly" cleaned her up (and then dumped her "lovingly" in the freezing dark wine cellar?) and wrote a ransom note that changed the whole scenario to a politically motivated crime of hatred against JR; a kidnapping, moreover, complete with a demand for money and a lot of lame references to action movies. Which, considering that they'd have to know that LE would find the 'sex wound,' makes absolutely no sense at all.

With the R's money and lawyers, even a second-degree murder/manslaughter charge would probably have been plea-bargained away to something rather minimal, all things considered, if JBR's death really had been some kind of accident, even one motivated by rage.
...

Maybe Patsy couldn't face the world knowing everybody would know she was responsible for JonBenet's death, even if it was ruled an accidental death. Maybe she thought living a lie was better than facing the truth.

Maybe there were marks on JonBenet from whatever happened before the head injury that made Patsy think it would be difficult to say JonBenet fell off a stool in the kitchen or something like that.

I agree it makes no sense at all and the speed at which the decisions were apparently made is truly stunning.

 

[DeeDee249]

If it truly were simply an "accidental death", I really feel the Rs would have come up with some kind of explanation for the skull fracture (there could easily have been a slip in the bathtub, etc) that while their world would have been shocked, it would have been seen as a tragic accident and that's that. They'd have called 911 and dealt with the consequences, probably never have faced prosecution (especially in Boulder) and we wouldn't be here discussing this 10 years later.
It's the garrotte, strangulation, apparant sexual abuse and vaginal wound that paints this as a murder. The head wound alone COULD HAVE been explained without it being seen as murder. The rest cannot.
So SOMETHING ELSE needed to be covered up. Not just a fractured skull. It's the cover-up that smacks of parental involvement.
And if they were covering up for their son, isn't that a crime in itself despite his age? I mean, it's evidence tampering, tampering with a corpse, etc. Even with Colorado's inane laws about shielding children under 10 from prosecution to the extent of preventing a murder from being solved and innocent people from being suspected it still seems like that kind of covering up is illegal to me.

 

[gracefuljf1505]

gracefuljf1505,

BlueCrab has a theory that considers that a third party, possibly an invited guest killed JonBenet and that Burke may have been either witness or party to this?

That is the Ramsey's are covering up for Burke aided by the Colorado child privacy laws?

This is why he says
Because Nedra and Pam both knew who killed JonBenet; and it wasn't Patsy.!


.

it has been said everyone is entitled to there own opinion.....if you read the last sentence of what i wrot ei said "this is my OPINION!" i am not suggesting she is wrong or right i am suggesting that in my opinion it is entirely possible that PR did in fact kill JB....Can you truely give me proof that she didn't? no becaus eit is an unsolved case.

 

[coloradokares]

it has been said everyone is entitled to there own opinion.....if you read the last sentence of what i wrot ei said "this is my OPINION!" i am not suggesting she is wrong or right i am suggesting that in my opinion it is entirely possible that PR did in fact kill JB....Can you truely give me proof that she didn't? no becaus eit is an unsolved case.

If that is what Blue Crab is suggesting, they do Not prosescute minors here in Colorado Yet Blue Crab seems to suggest yet a 5th party no more minors in the family I also womder if some of the staging was made to "look like" a minor did this? Staging within staging. I am not unwilling to consider a minor but not convinced either

 

[Dru]

If it truly were simply an "accidental death", I really feel the Rs would have come up with some kind of explanation for the skull fracture (there could easily have been a slip in the bathtub, etc) that while their world would have been shocked, it would have been seen as a tragic accident and that's that. They'd have called 911 and dealt with the consequences, probably never have faced prosecution (especially in Boulder) and we wouldn't be here discussing this 10 years later.
It's the garrotte, strangulation, apparant sexual abuse and vaginal wound that paints this as a murder. The head wound alone COULD HAVE been explained without it being seen as murder. The rest cannot.
So SOMETHING ELSE needed to be covered up. Not just a fractured skull. It's the cover-up that smacks of parental involvement.
And if they were covering up for their son, isn't that a crime in itself despite his age? I mean, it's evidence tampering, tampering with a corpse, etc. Even with Colorado's inane laws about shielding children under 10 from prosecution to the extent of preventing a murder from being solved and innocent people from being suspected it still seems like that kind of covering up is illegal to me.

DeeDee, exactly! The cover-up has to be of something more than just the head injury, because even a really bad head injury, if that were all, wouldn't automatically mean criminal charges and jail time. For one thing, just look at the R's house! Multiple staircases, a balcony in JBR's room, fireplaces, oddly angled countertops (look at the one near the phone in the kitchen, for example), the laundry area right outside JBR's room, the nightstand in her room (and the trunk, and the headboard of the bed, and the trophies on the cabinet--heck, even the TV in her closet!)--there are literally dozens of ways to create a "head injury" scenario, if that was all the R's had to cover up.

And if PR had called 911 hysterical just before or just after midnight saying, perhaps, that her little girl had climbed on a stool to try to turn on her TV by herself and had caused the whole think to fall on top of her, and that PR had hear the noise and come rushing in, and saw JBR with the TV on top of her head, and she's not breathing, etc. etc. who's to say that LE wouldn't have, at least officially, believed her? They might have privately suspected that something else caused the injury, but unless they had a really good reason to try to prove that a TV falling on JBR's head wouldn't have fractured her skull, chances are that with the money and power and lawyers the R's had available to them that the "accident" scenario would have been accepted, and that would have been that.

But the R's, or at least one of them, knew that something else had to be accounted for, and quite honestly the only thing that makes sense to me is preexisting sexual abuse. An abuser would know that all the "sad, tragic accidental death of a six-year-old" staging in the world wouldn't explain to the police why the six-year-old's hymenal opening was abnormally enlarged, which in turn would raise red flags about the "accident" in the first place.

And I keep coming back to the idea that the original plan was to get JBR's body out of the house. I envision the mind of the killer/killers this way:
1. JBR is dying; sexual abuse must be covered; vaginal wound inflicted.
2. JBR must be dead; strangulation.
3. JBR must be removed from the house; ransom note.
4. JBR can't be safely removed from the house; staging with garrote and 'wrist restraints.'
5. JBR must not be found immediately, yet police must be called and flight to Charlevoix canceled; keep RN, hide body in wine cellar.
6. JBR's body must be found so we can leave, hire lawyers, plan what to do next; 'discover' body in wine cellar with FW along as a 'witness' of the discovery.

Why did the killer want JBR's body out of the house? Because sufficient time before the discovery/sufficient decomposition would have made it impossible for sexual abuse to be uncovered. But the killer didn't make the Susan Smith mistake, and therefore we're still talking about this crime ten years later.

 

[rashomon]

Ames, how do you explain the fact that the vaginal wound was done within one hour of the head blow at the longest, and that it was done before the strangulation? Also, how do you explain the failure to go ahead and stage JBR's body as if this were a sex crime, i.e., unclothed, with the blood left on her body? Many people seem to believe that PR and/or JR could kill their daughter and inflict this horrible wound, but then just couldn't bring themselves to leave her unclothed in the basement. I honestly don't buy that.

Dru, on what forensic evidence do you base your belief that the vaginal wound was done within one hour of the head blow at the longest? On Dr. Wright's opinion as to how long she would have survived with this kind of brain injury?

 

[rashomon]

I've no doubt that JR later told PR, very heartbroken, that BR may have been even more troubled than they thought, and that he'd had to remove evidence of some kind of molestation, necessitating the size 12 underwear. But on the night of the murder it was only important that PR not ask too many questions, and a totally different pair of underwear.

Jmpo, but I don't think Patsy would have bought that story from John. She would have smelled a rat instantly, for it would have been only too obvious what John was up to.
Also, them sending Burke away alone to the Whites would have been incredibly risky too, as he might talk. They would have seen to it that one of them stayed near Burke all the time. jmo