Nedra & Patsy's sisters

[UKGuy]

I'm confused...you're saying the autopsy report is (at least in part)...fake?
B/c couldn't she have been strangled to death w the ligature,just enough to compress her windpipe and shut off her oxygen supply,but not cause damage to the thyroid gland and other structures?? Or am I wrong?? I've always assumed that to be the case.

JMO8778,

More or less, I reckon Coroner Meyer probably consulted with the police and produced an autopsy report, which although not false or bogus, mirrors the results of the intended staged crime-scene.

The start of the report gives prominence to:

FINAL DIAGNOSIS:
I. Ligature strangulation ...

II. Craniocerebral injuries ...

Yet there is no mention of her lower strangulation abrasions which are not circumferential.

JonBenet's sexual injury is buried in the report and her prior sexual activity is mentioned verbally, not in writing, although its likely this is expanded upon in his notes.

B/c couldn't she have been strangled to death w the ligature,just enough to compress her windpipe and shut off her oxygen supply,but not cause damage to the thyroid gland and other structures?? Or am I wrong?? I've always assumed that to be the case.

Anything is possible, particularly if you argue that her head injury came first, but the autopsy report makes it clear, that referring to the cross-sections of skin sampled from her neck, there was no underlying damage to her soft-tissue structures, so its difficult to make the case that the ligature asphyxiated JonBenet?


Think carefully about the autopsy report it simply says JonBenet suffered strangulation and head injuries, this is then qualified in a technical manner stating there is a Clinicopathlogic Correlation itemising the cause of death to be asphyxia by strangulation, complicated by her head injury.

So you can then interpret this two ways, he is playing down the effects of her head injury, or allowing for another mechanism by which asphyxia by strangulation may occur, e.g. manual?

Or to be blunt Coroner Meyer is saying JonBenet had two major injuries e.g. ligature strangulation and head trauma, his opinion is that the cause of death was asphyxia by strangulation but not exclusively by a ligature!


.

 

[Ames]

Thanks Dru. Maybe this is where SuperDave got his info from - the article in which the famous forensic pathologist Dr. Wright said that 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the head blow and the stranguation (bold type mine):


If the head blow came well before the strangulation, an intruder scenario is highly unlikely. Unless IDIs believe that the intruder was a 'necrophile' who enjoyed garotting dead victims. Very implausible scenario imo.
In short, everything points to the garrote scene as being staged by the parents.
Another thing which points to the strangulation as being staged is that there is no evidence whatsoever of internal injuries to JB's neck, as would occur in strangulations. No damage to the hyoid bone, no damage to the thyroid, no contusions, no bruising - nothing. Only petechiae around her neck where the cord was tied. It seems to me that the stager of the scene, believing JB already dead, merely tied a knot around her neck and that was it. Wouldn't violent pulling at the ligature (by a person who wanted to make sure that JonBenet would die from the stranglation) have caused inner neck wounds?

Yep...and if you haven't read my thread.."First Hand Knowledge on What It Feels Like To Be Strangled"....please do. Its also posted over at FFJ. I was strangled as a young elementary school girl, by a bully on the school bus. He pulled the string (like a shoe string) so tight that it cut off my air, and I almost passed out. I clawed my neck to shreds, trying to remove the string, so that I could breathe. This is a natural instinct....JB had no claw marks, or skin under her nails. Proving to me, that she was already unconsious from the head wound, before the "staged strangulation".

 

[Ames]

rashomon,

I reckon we both saying the same thing, except I am using precise technical terms.

I'll state it again, since it is clear in the autopsy report, JonBenet died from hypoxia, which is a deficiency of oxygen!

Any interruption of oxygen at any step in its path through the body can lead to asphyxia via various mechanisms e.g.

Suffocation
Strangulation
Drowning
Inhalation of toxic chemicals

These are the most common and well understood, another mechanism is via a serious head injury.

So if JonBenet's subdural hemorrhage was significant enough in volume, it would increase the intracranial pressure, squeezing the brain. Mounting pressure would shut down the brain function, push brain material down into the foramen magnum, the opening at the base of the skull where the spinal cord exits, causing JonBenet to lose conciousness. Now the important part is this, the part of the brainstem that controls breathing also shuts down, respiration stops, and death follows. That is a head injury of the type inficted upon JonBenet has the ability to cause asphyxia!

Since her skull was fractured I do not think the above asphyxiation process occurred.

But her depressed skull fracture did lead to a subdural hemorrhage, which reduces the flow or passage of oxygen, thus contributing to her death via asphyxia, which caused hypoxia.

So a strangulation and head injury both contributed towards asphyxiation.

But Coroner Meyer reckons the strangulation is the major causal factor in her death with her head injury patently being corelated in some manner, which he cannot quantify, e.g. strangulation equals no oxygen!


.

Here is my theory......based on my own experience. The head wound came first, knocking JB unconscious....The Ramseys thought she was dead...but she wasn't, she just had a faint heartbeat. So, then the staged garrotting occurred. The cord was probably pulled tight enough to cut off her airway, but not tight enough to damage anything inside of the throat. When I was strangled...there was no damage done to the inside of my throat, but it DID cut off my air and I couldn't breathe. IMO...she was going to die soon from the head wound, but the garotting killed her sooner. But, like I said before....IMO...the Rams thought that she was ALREADY dead. Edited to add: Obviously the cord wasn't pulled very tight, if it didn't damage anything internally. This is another sign that points to the parents....John (or Patsy) didn't angrily twist that garotte, to the point of damaging anythng inside of her throat. This is just another thing that points to staging by the parents....a real intruder that was angry with John, would have twisted that cord so tight, that it would have damaged the inside of her throat, and probably would have even sliced THROUGH her neck. This is why the garotte was not intended to kill her ....they already thought that he was dead. It was a "Soft" strangulation....for lack of a better word. Just like the bully on my bus, he wasn't TRYING to kill me, and he wasn't angry with me....he was just mean, and was just trying to hurt me. He even asked me if I was "OKAY"...after he realized that I was losing consciousness....mine was a "soft" strangulation too, not enough to do internal damage, but enough to cut off my airway.

 

[Ames]

I'm confused...you're saying the autopsy report is (at least in part)...fake?
B/c couldn't she have been strangled to death w the ligature,just enough to compress her windpipe and shut off her oxygen supply,but not cause damage to the thyroid gland and other structures?? Or am I wrong?? I've always assumed that to be the case.

I just now saw your post...YES...you ARE correct. Been there....done that.

 

[Dru]

UKGuy, have you ever posted your entire theory? I apologize if I've just missed it somehow, and would appreciate seeing it.

The reason I ask is because I'm confused. On some points you and I seem to be in some agreement, but then something like this comes up and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

It does seem pretty clear from the physical evidence that JBR wasn't actually strangled before the head blow. I would use the term "choked" even if it could be shown that her collar was somehow twisted at the time the head blow was inflicted. Why? Because there's no evidence that her air supply was actually cut off at that time.

I'm not even really sure about "choked." Ames' first-hand testimony is valuable here--I think JBR would have put her hands up to her neck if someone were choking her, even manually, before the head blow.

Her fingernails were clipped and collected, and lots of discussion about DNA has ensued about them, but one thing that seems pretty clear is that there was nothing really unusual about the fingernails: no blood, no signs that she'd damaged the nails scratching at someone, not even any fiber evidence (and if she'd been strangled with her shirt, wouldn't there be fibers from her own shirt as she pulled and tugged instinctively at whatever was choking her?).

I think the only reasonable inference we can draw from the complete lack of physical evidence under JBR's nails is that she was unconscious when she was strangled. Honestly, if she hadn't been, if she'd fought it in any way, not only would there be lots of evidence of that fact, but also I think we might be talking about a child who died of a broken neck, given how little she was!

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I came across an article on strangulation that said clawing at your neck when being strangled is so reflexive that people who have hanged themselves as suicide do it. I was mildly surprised that even people who intend to die by strangulation reach up and try to relieve the pressure. That's your brain on autopilot due to a life-threatening situation. Even tiny infants who are smothered fight to breathe, so that autopilot is definitely active in the brain of a 6 year old child.

There is no way, imo, that JonBenet would not have struggled to free herself and get a breath if she was being choked or strangled - unless she was unconscious. Although if she was being choked, I would expect to see scratch marks on the hands of the choker as well as that person's skin under her nails, or scratch marks on her throat, and her skin under her nails. She's struggling to breathe, her brain's kicking into survival mode - she's going to use every ounce of strength she has to fight.

 

[JMO8778]

It may have just all happened so fast she didn't have a chance,if she was choked and hit upon the head at about the same time(then later strangled while unconcious).
Patsy said she had flashbacks of JB screaming..there must have been at least some kind of a struggle,even a short-lived one.
I'm guessing the red turtleneck has some evidence on it that's being held back.
The only other thing I can think of is if she was having a seizure from the head injury,she wouldn't have been able to use her arms and hands to try to free herself.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, have you ever posted your entire theory? I apologize if I've just missed it somehow, and would appreciate seeing it.

The reason I ask is because I'm confused. On some points you and I seem to be in some agreement, but then something like this comes up and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

It does seem pretty clear from the physical evidence that JBR wasn't actually strangled before the head blow. I would use the term "choked" even if it could be shown that her collar was somehow twisted at the time the head blow was inflicted. Why? Because there's no evidence that her air supply was actually cut off at that time.

I'm not even really sure about "choked." Ames' first-hand testimony is valuable here--I think JBR would have put her hands up to her neck if someone were choking her, even manually, before the head blow.

Her fingernails were clipped and collected, and lots of discussion about DNA has ensued about them, but one thing that seems pretty clear is that there was nothing really unusual about the fingernails: no blood, no signs that she'd damaged the nails scratching at someone, not even any fiber evidence (and if she'd been strangled with her shirt, wouldn't there be fibers from her own shirt as she pulled and tugged instinctively at whatever was choking her?).

I think the only reasonable inference we can draw from the complete lack of physical evidence under JBR's nails is that she was unconscious when she was strangled. Honestly, if she hadn't been, if she'd fought it in any way, not only would there be lots of evidence of that fact, but also I think we might be talking about a child who died of a broken neck, given how little she was!

Dru,
My complete theory has never been posted, partly due to the suspension of the Theory Thread, and the obscure nature of some of the facts, as distinct from all the pseudo facts that now surround the case. e.g. Patsy peering through her fingers.

It does seem pretty clear from the physical evidence that JBR wasn't actually strangled before the head blow. I would use the term "choked" even if it could be shown that her collar was somehow twisted at the time the head blow was inflicted. Why? Because there's no evidence that her air supply was actually cut off at that time.

How can you tell this, there is nothing to stop JonBenet's air-supply being cut-off, followed by a loss of consciousness, followed by a head blow to make sure she is killed, the residual blood in her brain would still cause the subdural hemorrhage. This notion of scratching or fighting against asphyxiation is fine, but for some cases the victim is never afforded the possibility. The person asphyxiating JonBenet may have been kneeling over her, this persons arms may have been over JonBenet's preventing her from reaching her neck, there are many possibilities that could prevent JonBenet from resisting asphyxiation, so generalising to the specific may not help.

I find it helps to refer to the forensic evidence rather than generalising either from personal experience or a particular theory. On this basis it appears that the ligature strangulation was done from behind, and the abrasions on the front of her neck were sustained from some kind of frontal asphyxiation, this suggests there were two attempts at asphyxiation, and not just one?

So if we assume her head injury comes first why is there the need for two separate attempts at asphyxiation?

Also where does her sexual assault fit into this, since her killer knew she was still alive, otherwise there is no need to asphyxiate her?

A possible but not convincing answer is that the two asphyxiations were failed staging attempts?


.

 

[rashomon]

JMO8778,
Not precisely because either has the ability to kill on its own. If he thought that a combination of strangulation and head injury contributed towards her death, then the cerebrocranial trauma and strangulation would be jointly listed as the causes of death.

But they are. Isn't that what 'associated with' implies? If he had writtten COD is 'craniocerebral trauma associated with strangulation', it would be the same too.
I think when a person dies from craniocerebral trauma it means the shutting down and collapsing of all vital brain functions. Ashphyxia is normally not specifically listed as the COD in victms ho have suffered craniocerebral trauma, at least not in the autopsy reports from other criminal cases I have read.

imo I reckon the autopsy report plays along with the staging, whereas the physical forensic evidence suggests something else.

You mean Dr. Meyer worked hand in hand with Team Ramsey in the cover-up, suggesting JB had died from strangulation while in truth there was no strangulation at all?

 

[UKGuy]

It may have just all happened so fast she didn't have a chance,if she was choked and hit upon the head at about the same time(then later strangled while unconcious).
Patsy said she had flashbacks of JB screaming..there must have been at least some kind of a struggle,even a short-lived one.
I'm guessing the red turtleneck has some evidence on it that's being held back.
The only other thing I can think of is if she was having a seizure from the head injury,she wouldn't have been able to use her arms and hands to try to free herself.

JMO8778,

It may have just all happened so fast she didn't have a chance,if she was choked and hit upon the head at about the same time(then later strangled while unconcious).

This appears the simplest explanation, and it also tells us her killer knew she was still alive, as per her sexual assault, so her death was intentional.

If you remove her sexual assault and place it prior to start of her asphyxiation or head blow, then it offers a motive for her death and silence, with the rest mainly being staging?

But either way someone intentionally killed JonBenet, it was not unintended or an accident, someone did not want JonBenet to talk.


.

 

[UKGuy]

But they are. Isn't that what 'associated with' implies? If he had writtten COD is 'craniocerebral trauma associated with strangulation', it would be the same too.
I think when a person dies from craniocerebral trauma it means the shutting down and collapsing of all vital brain functions. Ashphyxia is normally not specifically listed as the COD in victms ho have suffered craniocerebral trauma, at least not in the autopsy reports from other criminal cases I have read.


You mean Dr. Meyer worked hand in hand with Team Ramsey in the cover-up, suggesting JB had died from strangulation while in truth there was no strangulation at all?

rashomon,

But they are. Isn't that what 'associated with' implies? If he had writtten COD is 'craniocerebral trauma associated with strangulation', it would be the same too.

Not quite, Coroner Meyer did not use the word, multiple which you will have seen in other autopsy reports where the causes of death are plural?

I think when a person dies from craniocerebral trauma it means the shutting down and collapsing of all vital brain functions.

Possibly so, and did this occur in JonBenet's death, was her head injury the sole cause of her death?

Does this mean when Coroner Meyer itemises Ligature Strangulation it was just really attempted strangulation since her head injury caused her respiration to fail?

Or did he emphasise asphyxia by strangulation as the cause of death, with her head injury contributing associated trauma, because asphyxia by strangulation means zero oxygen to breathe?

You mean Dr. Meyer worked hand in hand with Team Ramsey in the cover-up, suggesting JB had died from strangulation while in truth there was no strangulation at all?

I'm sure you know I am not suggesting this, what I am suggesting is that minimal information was included in the autopsy, and that which was mirrored the staged crime-scene.


.

 

[Dru]

JMO8778,

This appears the simplest explanation, and it also tells us her killer knew she was still alive, as per her sexual assault, so her death was intentional.

If you remove her sexual assault and place it prior to start of her asphyxiation or head blow, then it offers a motive for her death and silence, with the rest mainly being staging?

But either way someone intentionally killed JonBenet, it was not unintended or an accident, someone did not want JonBenet to talk.


.

Are you suggesting that JBR was alive, conscious, and docile during the sexual attack?

Even if she'd been a victim of prior molestation, it's hard to justify this from the forensics. A hard object was jabbed into her hymen; again, we'd see some evidence of a struggle, possibly bruising along the thighs, etc.

Though I do tend to believe the 'prior molestation' theory, I also believe that the abuse, though chronic, had not involved any painful injury to JBR prior to the night of the 25th.

 

[rashomon]

How can you tell this, there is nothing to stop JonBenet's air-supply being cut-off, followed by a loss of consciousness, followed by a head blow to make sure she is killed, the residual blood in her brain would still cause the subdural hemorrhage. This notion of scratching or fighting against asphyxiation is fine, but for some cases the victim is never afforded the possibility. The person asphyxiating JonBenet may have been kneeling over her, this persons arms may have been over JonBenet's preventing her from reaching her neck, there are many possibilities that could prevent JonBenet from resisting asphyxiation, so generalising to the specific may not help.

What exactly do you mean by 'residual blood'? Fresh scalp hemorrhage does not sound like being residual blood. What about the subarachnoid hemorrhage and the large areas of contusions in her brain?

Famous forensic experts like Dr. Spitz and Dr. Wright came to the conclusion that the head injury came first.

I find it helps to refer to the forensic evidence rather than generalising either from personal experience or a particular theory.

I couldn't agree more. Therefore inferring for example that Dr. Meyer intentionally left out crucial facts in his autopsy report is mere speculation.

On this basis it appears that the ligature strangulation was done from behind, and the abrasions on the front of her neck were sustained from some kind of frontal asphyxiation, this suggests there were two attempts at asphyxiation, and not just one?

The second abrasion could have been caused simply from the stager's fumbling around with the cord, trying to adjust it.

So if we assume her head injury comes first why is there the need for two separate attempts at asphyxiation?

Sorry to sound like a broken record here, but the autopsy report says nothing whatsoever about a second attempt at asphyxiation.

Also where does her sexual assault fit into this, since her killer knew she was still alive, otherwise there is no need to asphyxiate her?

No indeed there was no need to asphyxiate her, since imo the garrote scene was done for mere staging purposes.
In terms of the vaginal wound: I think this too was an attempt at staging, but not followed through. I believe the Ramseys thought JB was already dead when they staged the scene. God knows what were their thoughts when they saw that the vaginal wound bled. How 'forensically aware' were they, i. e. did they realize JB was still alive when they saw the blood?

A possible but not convincing answer is that the two asphyxiations were failed staging attempts?

Imo here was only one asphyxiation. The garrote was needed to introduce an element of bizarreness to the crime scene.

 

[rashomon]

I'm sure you know I am not suggesting this, what I am suggesting is that minimal information was included in the autopsy, and that which was mirrored the staged crime-scene.

No, I did not know this, since you often sound quite 'cryptic' in your posts.
A question: on which forensic evidence do you think Dr. Meyer based his opinion that JonBenet was strangled?

 

[UKGuy]

No, I did not know this, since you often sound quite 'cryptic' in your posts.
A question: on which forensic evidence do you think Dr. Meyer based his opinion that JonBenet was strangled?

rashomon,

Well to continue in the cryptic vein, I do not think it was based on her head injury, or on the garrote ligature, since there was no soft tissue damage, just probably enough pressure to create the furrow etc.

So what other strangulation may have caused her death?

Does there not appear to be an anomaly here?


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

This appears the simplest explanation, and it also tells us her killer knew she was still alive, as per her sexual assault, so her death was intentional.

If you remove her sexual assault and place it prior to start of her asphyxiation or head blow, then it offers a motive for her death and silence, with the rest mainly being staging?

But either way someone intentionally killed JonBenet, it was not unintended or an accident, someone did not want JonBenet to talk.


.

I've thought about that,too,and I certainly don't rule JR out,not at all.As far as motive goes,it seems he would have had more reason to see her dead,*if in fact there was molestation going on.

 

[JMO8778]

rashomon,

Not quite, Coroner Meyer did not use the word, multiple which you will have seen in other autopsy reports where the causes of death are plural?


Possibly so, and did this occur in JonBenet's death, was her head injury the sole cause of her death?

Does this mean when Coroner Meyer itemises Ligature Strangulation it was just really attempted strangulation since her head injury caused her respiration to fail?

Or did he emphasise asphyxia by strangulation as the cause of death, with her head injury contributing associated trauma, because asphyxia by strangulation means zero oxygen to breathe?



.

does he have an email address so we could ask him,does anyone know?

 

[JMO8778]

Are you suggesting that JBR was alive, conscious, and docile during the sexual attack?

Even if she'd been a victim of prior molestation, it's hard to justify this from the forensics. A hard object was jabbed into her hymen; again, we'd see some evidence of a struggle, possibly bruising along the thighs, etc.

Though I do tend to believe the 'prior molestation' theory, I also believe that the abuse, though chronic, had not involved any painful injury to JBR prior to the night of the 25th.

that's why I think there could have been 2 sexual assaults that night...the first a non-painful one,the second done for staging purposes after she was thought dead.

 

[DeeDee249]

Let me make it clear that I do not necessarily think the coroner wrote his report according to Team R dictates. But it wouldn't be the first time in history an autopsy report was "adjusted" when needed. It does seem odd that a "ligature strangulation" that was not really forceful enough to actually strangle would be listed as a cause of death. But it was the ligature that was most obvious; the head wound was not apparant on external visual inspection and wasn't seen until the autopsy itself.

 

[Ames]

Dru,
My complete theory has never been posted, partly due to the suspension of the Theory Thread, and the obscure nature of some of the facts, as distinct from all the pseudo facts that now surround the case. e.g. Patsy peering through her fingers.


How can you tell this, there is nothing to stop JonBenet's air-supply being cut-off, followed by a loss of consciousness, followed by a head blow to make sure she is killed, the residual blood in her brain would still cause the subdural hemorrhage. This notion of scratching or fighting against asphyxiation is fine, but for some cases the victim is never afforded the possibility. The person asphyxiating JonBenet may have been kneeling over her, this persons arms may have been over JonBenet's preventing her from reaching her neck, there are many possibilities that could prevent JonBenet from resisting asphyxiation, so generalising to the specific may not help.

I find it helps to refer to the forensic evidence rather than generalising either from personal experience or a particular theory. On this basis it appears that the ligature strangulation was done from behind, and the abrasions on the front of her neck were sustained from some kind of frontal asphyxiation, this suggests there were two attempts at asphyxiation, and not just one?

So if we assume her head injury comes first why is there the need for two separate attempts at asphyxiation?

Also where does her sexual assault fit into this, since her killer knew she was still alive, otherwise there is no need to asphyxiate her?

A possible but not convincing answer is that the two asphyxiations were failed staging attempts?


.

If the person was kneeling over her, she would have reached up and scratched at him, if she couldn't reach her neck for some reason. She would have scratched at his face, his arms.....anything that she could, to get him to let go of the cord, so that she could breathe...but, yet...no skin was found under her nails. She didn't scratch at all....because she was UNCONSCIOUS.