Netflix to stream new documentary on Steven Avery - #4

[BigCityAccountant]

Something odd was how the investigator asked SA how one might enter the property through the gravel quarry side and SA said he didn't have a burn pit...

Yeah...I know...caught that too, but I just figured he was lying. I wonder if the trailer in the right hand corner of the picture that Missy posted awhile back, is the owner of the gravel quarry? Also, I wondered about the road from the gravel quarry--the owner would hear if someone was on that road?

To me if he wanted those interviews suppressed, there is something in those interviews that is a clue...

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Let's say that TH was not murdered in the garage as Kratz suggested but somewhere else on the property and LE really didn't plant that bullet with TH's DNA.

Then how would the bullet get into the garage? Any thoughts?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Something odd was how the investigator asked SA how one might enter the property through the gravel quarry side and SA said he didn't have a burn pit...

Oh...one more thing...if you are thinking LE already knew about the road, SA offers that info up freely to Marinette County during the 1st interview..

 

[Safeguard]

Morning guys! Think there's anything to this, "Edward Wayne Edwards" guy being the real killer? I had heard a little bit about him, some claim to have spotted him in the doc, briefly too. There was an article about him today, I thought was interesting:
http://radaronline.com/celebrity-ne...evidence-serial-killer-murder-teresa-halbach/

 

[pleasestandby]

in his first few interviews..... when asked what he was doing that night and the other nights all that week.... it was never mentioned. It was never mentioned by Scott, not Brendan, not Blaine (we don't have any from others at this point) I think I have discussed this over in the bonfire or bones thread, or maybe both.

I don't care what they said months later, IMO if it was that big of a fire, or was that memorable, it would have been mentioned by one them before LE poked into their heads and went "well there must have been a fire that night" (to fit the bones, which of course, I believe were moved there, partly because I don't believe there was a fire there that night) And if you believe they were all hiding it, then they must all have been in on the crime. jmo

I'm just wondering if a burn barrel fire or open fire on the ground can even generate a high enough heat to reduce human bones, skull and teeth to fragments. It sure wasn't hot enough to completely burn up a plastic phone and other items belonging to TH.

And how did body parts get into the fire pit, the five burn barrels and the quarry? Was the body burnt in the fire pit and then redistributed to the burn barrels and quarry or vice versa? And nobody in the area noticed the smell of a human body burning?

 

[TheDuchess]

Morning guys! Think there's anything to this, "Edward Wayne Edwards" guy being the real killer? I had heard a little bit about him, some claim to have spotted him in the doc, briefly too. There was an article about him today, I thought was interesting:
http://radaronline.com/celebrity-ne...evidence-serial-killer-murder-teresa-halbach/

I have been reading about him on Cold Case Cameron. The theory was put out by a man who is an expert on cold cases and his theory sounds really interesting, particularly because of other crimes being done on Halloween and other holidays. That said, he also believes that EWE is responsible for over 100 other cases, many of them high profile, such as JonBenet Ramsey, Laci Peterson and Chandra Levy. So I think many are taking it with a grain of salt. However, if you look at the photo from the documentary, it certainly looks like him....a LOT!!! Cameron claims that EWE enjoyed not just murdering people but setting other people up for the murders. He lived an hour away from SA when the crime was committed and he really was a sick twisted man.

 

[Madeleine74]

Bones would be hastened into fragments by someone hitting the bones with an implement of some kind to make them into fragments as they are burned down. Items like some kind of hammer, sledge hammer or a tool that the killer can use to reduce larger pieces of bone down to fragments.

 

[TheDuchess]

In going through the information on EWE, I thought that this was pretty compelling. Cameron says that EWE sent this false ransom note back in 1955. Eerily similar to the infamous JBR ransom note.

 

[Safeguard]

In going through the information on EWE, I thought that this was pretty compelling. Cameron says that EWE sent this false ransom note back in 1955. Eerily similar to the infamous JBR ransom note.
View attachment 88457

Right. I read that the judge in SA's case got a similar letter...

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Right. I read that the judge in SA's case got a similar letter...

I never heard that...where did you hear that?

 

[TheDuchess]

I never heard that...where did you hear that?

It's actually in the transcripts. If you go to Cameron's link here, scroll down a bit and click the link that says "Cryptic Letter Sent in Teresa Halbach Case" and a pdf will pop up with the actual transcript about it. It ended up not being allowed into evidence.

ETA (link) http://coldcasecameron.com/

"On Day 18 of the Steven Avery trial the court took up arguments by the defense regarding an
anonymous cryptic letter sent to the Sheriff of Manitowoc County. This letter sat in the evidence
room for a year after Teresa was murdered. It was just discovered by the defense through the
testimony of Detective Fassbender.
The following 12 pages are of the Trial Testimony about Cryptic Anonymous Letter, sent after
the arrest of Steve Avery and before the arrest of Brendan Dassey. The letter is referred to by the
Judge as “Cryptic”, containing details of how Teresa was killed and burned in a smelter. This
letter was handwritten and would have been sent by Edward Wayne Edwards. The police
disregarded it."

 

[Safeguard]

I never heard that...where did you hear that?

Here's a link mentioning a letter sent to Manitowoc LE. Ithe was supposedly "seen" in some of the trial transcrips, but I can't verify yet. I just started looking at this guy. Could be nothing, but worth a look-see...
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/news/local/2016/01/26/avery-case-great-falls-ties/79376778/
Whoops! Cross posted with TheDutchess! Lol.

 

[Justiceseeker35]

Yeah...I know...caught that too, but I just figured he was lying. I wonder if the trailer in the right hand corner of the picture that Missy posted awhile back, is the owner of the gravel quarry? Also, I wondered about the road from the gravel quarry--the owner would hear if someone was on that road?

To me if he wanted those interviews suppressed, there is something in those interviews that is a clue...

For me I find those first interviews with Law Enforcement to be where you get some of the best information. It's before the lawyers are involved, before the police has told the press what they know and before the person interviewed has really think about a story, you know really digest what they want to say. In hindsight we have the benefit of seeing what they chose to with hold, what they chose to divulge to the the LE individual. (For instance I believe Cindy Anthony's series of 911 calls was the most raw and honest she had been in the entire case)

That being said as far as SA's case goes, in his initial interviews he seems to waiver if TH ever came to knock on his door, how much he may have called her and if he touched her car in any way. The time line was off by several accounts. For SA's interview being she was there 2 to 2:30 and other witnesses 3:45 or so. For him to be viewed in the best light by the detectives he has to have minimal interaction with her for the least amount of time earliest in the day. So he minimizes it all. He claims his 4:35 call to her was in regards to another vehicle he wanted to sell. Is it possible he arranged an unscheduled photo session with her earlier during the 2pmish van photo session? For instance if she said she had another photo session scheduled (Zipperers) but she could come back after. Would there be enough time for her to go to Avery's spend 10 or 15 mins on the van, go to the Zipperers and spend 10 or 15 mins on their car and be back after for whatever SA was trying to sell? And be back at the Avery property for the 3:45 sighting? For SA to admit to that he would admit to her being on his property not once but twice during that day. And there would be another opportunity late in the day for the assault to occur.
I'm not saying he's guilty, I'm still on the fence but there's no proof that she ever made it out for the second time, there's not even 100% proof he was the last person to see her that day. I was kind of hoping for a bill of sale, receipt, or log for the unscheduled photo shoot.

 

[missy1974]

I'm just wondering if a burn barrel fire or open fire on the ground can even generate a high enough heat to reduce human bones, skull and teeth to fragments. It sure wasn't hot enough to completely burn up a plastic phone and other items belonging to TH.

And how did body parts get into the fire pit, the five burn barrels and the quarry? Was the body burnt in the fire pit and then redistributed to the burn barrels and quarry or vice versa? And nobody in the area noticed the smell of a human body burning?

They found bone fragments in 1 barrel, the burn pit, and I think 2 in the quarry (pelvic bones).

IMO from what I have read, you can generate that much... but you have to maintain that heat for a long time, which is not as easy.
I am curious to what Zellner comes up with this, because she tweeted about it awhile back saying that the heat needed wouldn't be possible with the garage and the propane tank so close. Read the testimony about the bones/firepit, both for the state and for the defense, the opinions about the bones being moved, etc.

It's just one more thing that doesn't make sense to me... the moving of the bones and the firepit. I guess 2 more things haha

 

[missy1974]

Morning guys! Think there's anything to this, "Edward Wayne Edwards" guy being the real killer? I had heard a little bit about him, some claim to have spotted him in the doc, briefly too. There was an article about him today, I thought was interesting:
http://radaronline.com/celebrity-ne...evidence-serial-killer-murder-teresa-halbach/

I dunno... the guy was pretty old, but I guess if she was in a vulnerable position, like bent over into the back of her RAV4, maybe? I read last night that one of her tools from her tool kit in the RAV4 was missing. I had heard this before, but didn't realize it was a tool that came with the RAV4... for changing a tire roadside. During their search of all the cars they were also looking for this tool... they used it in the search warrant too I think. They have never found the tool.

Also.... I am not sure, but early on I read that one of Zellner's exonerated clients may have been framed by EWE, I have not looked into who, but would be interested if anyone else has.

Cameron's website is very hard to follow IMO, you have to read it all to even remotely understand it. And IIRC he didn't make a connection until that picture was sent to him, and then he found out about the "letter". EWE lived an hour away at the time TH was killed.

 

[Safeguard]

Yeah, Cameron does seem to be a bit of a "Mad Hatter". (Of the Tin Foil kind!), seems like he lost it, mentally, somewhere along the line. (I can see how years of investigative work could cause a break down! LOL!).

Still, EWE was in the area, thought was worth looking at anyway.

Oh and it was Ryan Ferguson that zellner exonerated, who was killed by EWE. ( so it has been said, don't know if they ever proved it was EWE)...

Here's a reddit link discussing the whole thing:
https://m.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/41kx36/edward_wayne_edwards_may_have_been_in/

 

[MysticJynx]

I dunno... the guy was pretty old, but I guess if she was in a vulnerable position, like bent over into the back of her RAV4, maybe? I read last night that one of her tools from her tool kit in the RAV4 was missing. I had heard this before, but didn't realize it was a tool that came with the RAV4... for changing a tire roadside. During their search of all the cars they were also looking for this tool... they used it in the search warrant too I think. They have never found the tool.

Also.... I am not sure, but early on I read that one of Zellner's exonerated clients may have been framed by EWE, I have not looked into who, but would be interested if anyone else has.

Cameron's website is very hard to follow IMO, you have to read it all to even remotely understand it. And IIRC he didn't make a connection until that picture was sent to him, and then he found out about the "letter". EWE lived an hour away at the time TH was killed.

The Tire Iron was missing? The crowbar? This is what I had been thinking been used to hit her on the head outside the back of her car, then pushed her in. JMO Find it interesting that its missing.

 

[missy1974]

For me I find those first interviews with Law Enforcement to be where you get some of the best information. It's before the lawyers are involved, before the police has told the press what they know and before the person interviewed has really think about a story, you know really digest what they want to say. In hindsight we have the benefit of seeing what they chose to with hold, what they chose to divulge to the the LE individual. (For instance I believe Cindy Anthony's series of 911 calls was the most raw and honest she had been in the entire case)

That being said as far as SA's case goes, in his initial interviews he seems to waiver if TH ever came to knock on his door, how much he may have called her and if he touched her car in any way. The time line was off by several accounts. For SA's interview being she was there 2 to 2:30 and other witnesses 3:45 or so. For him to be viewed in the best light by the detectives he has to have minimal interaction with her for the least amount of time earliest in the day. So he minimizes it all. He claims his 4:35 call to her was in regards to another vehicle he wanted to sell. Is it possible he arranged an unscheduled photo session with her earlier during the 2pmish van photo session? For instance if she said she had another photo session scheduled (Zipperers) but she could come back after. Would there be enough time for her to go to Avery's spend 10 or 15 mins on the van, go to the Zipperers and spend 10 or 15 mins on their car and be back after for whatever SA was trying to sell? And be back at the Avery property for the 3:45 sighting? For SA to admit to that he would admit to her being on his property not once but twice during that day. And there would be another opportunity late in the day for the assault to occur.
I'm not saying he's guilty, I'm still on the fence but there's no proof that she ever made it out for the second time, there's not even 100% proof he was the last person to see her that day. I was kind of hoping for a bill of sale, receipt, or log for the unscheduled photo shoot.

The timeline is crazy... no one knows what time it is, and it's kinda frustrating. Can't even find proof that she was at Zipperer's before or after Avery's. Bobby says 2:45.... but can he be believed? The bus driver.... I am not sure she seen her that day or a different day, it does seem to be a really long distance for her to have seen TH taking pictures, and IIRC she wasn't even sure it was that day.

In one of the police interviews, I think it was BD's first one, they mention she had an appointment in Green Bay that she didn't make it too. She made a call at 11:31am... to a Daniel Morrow, he cancelled on Oct 29th, it was a 3 minute call and I'm thinking she rescheduled it for that day but never showed up. He was also on the potential witnesses list (not sure for who... defense or prosecution). If she was having troubles finding the Zipperer residence.... did she say screw it and go to Avery's hoping someone would call her back with the directions? In JZ's statement, she doesn't mention that TH had troubles finding the residence, no mention that she left a message at 2:12.

On another note: When I put in the address that is on the sheet, I get nothing on google maps but it gives me suggestions, if you are from the area, would you know what County Trunk B means? Google is suggesting County Road B (which I think is right, isn't it? LOL) On mapquest, I don't even get a suggestion LOL Was google maps around in 2005? I seen someone post on reddit about it last night but I was tired, I'm thinking because she is from the area, she would know though, right?

 

[missy1974]

Yeah, Cameron does seem to be a bit of a "Mad Hatter". (Of the Tin Foil kind!), seems like he lost it, mentally, somewhere along the line. (I can see how years of investigative work could cause a break down! LOL!).

Still, EWE was in the area, thought was worth looking at anyway.

Oh and it was Ryan Ferguson that zellner exonerated, who was killed by EWE.

ahh ok, thanks! I thought so, but wasn't sure! Some of Zellner's tweets are cryptic too.... but the thought has crossed my mind that EWE's DNA/prints weren't in the database in 2005, so maybe.... she has them because of Ryan's case? Interesting for sure. At this point, I think anything is possible. Look at the murders that EWE has confessed too.... didn't he burn one of his victims?

 

[pittie_mcclure]

They found bone fragments in 1 barrel, the burn pit, and I think 2 in the quarry (pelvic bones).

IMO from what I have read, you can generate that much... but you have to maintain that heat for a long time, which is not as easy.
I am curious to what Zellner comes up with this, because she tweeted about it awhile back saying that the heat needed wouldn't be possible with the garage and the propane tank so close. Read the testimony about the bones/firepit, both for the state and for the defense, the opinions about the bones being moved, etc.

It's just one more thing that doesn't make sense to me... the moving of the bones and the firepit. I guess 2 more things haha

With tires and enough fuel I'm sure the fire would get hot enough but would somebody be able to get close enough to the fire to break down the bones so they would burn better? Did I miss the theory that the fire was stopped and started again so the killer could break down the bones? Like Zellner, it is also sketchy to me that a fire that hot would not be a problem so close to a building and a tank. We have a small fire pit at our family cottage in Wisconsin. It is very close to our cottage, but we always make sure it's a generally small and very contained (in a metal bin) because flying embers and objects are a very real thing (and we just use wood for ours) They fly everywhere if a fire is big, so there is no guarantee.. We were built on a layer of sand on a lakefront by my great-grandfather, though, so we are always damp. I have to look and see if the number of fire pits on the Avery property is mentioned anywhere.

I agree that sound is "louder" out in small towns and we notice everything at our cottage. Granted we have a secluded drive (and a secluded property) so we notice any and everybody that comes through because they have to drive into our grass to turn around (and there are always like 5 dogs at any given time to alert us lol) but I hear parties across the lake and a gun range a few miles away as if it was next door. We can hear hunters as well. We've even had to chase illegal hunters off our property because "what if you shoot my dog or a child?!" kinda thing. That's one of the reasons I play with the idea of an accidental shooting or the like and a family cover up but I definitely don't think they'd let Brenden go down for that. Somebody would have come clean I think.

Cameron's website is VERY hard to follow! It might be compelling but trying to link one man to SO many high profile cases makes it hard for me to really bite. His proximity to the crime is interesting, but maybe he also enjoyed confusing those working on cases. I've heard of the letter but never saw it in its entirety. I will check out the ZN link because that would be interesting.