GUILTY Netherlands - Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 #4
- Thread starter zwiebel
- Start date
Agree, agree. :gaah:
I don't think that the rescue team and the OSCE in the region can do much about it. And there has been heavy fighting at the location during recent weeks. But still.
IMHO the endless delay is a direct consequence of the Dutch decision not to negotiate with the separatists.
There may be sound political grounds for such a decision, but the consequences are ominous. Delays, delays and more delays. Plus lots of babble about safety of our team members.
Meanwhile, various journalists were able to reach the crash site with no obvious problems, while the rescue teams had to travel for hours on, if the 'safety situation' allowed them to travel at all.
Malaysia took a neutral stand. This allowed their PM to negotiate with the separatists and achieve the release of the bodies and the black boxes. That man deserves a medal and our eternal gratitude.
The Dutch Government may claim that they are dedicated to return to the crash site and to get to the bottom of this.
However, in the grand scheme of things, they are only 'dedicated' after a litany of bureaucratic requirements has been complied with, and unfortunately, that is their main priority.
If it had not been for a handful of journalists who went to see for themselves, we would never have known about this.
Surviving families of some Dutch victims are taking the government to court for neglect. Rightly so, IMHO. While the Dutch government cherishes it's noble principles, stray dogs in the region run off with bones that may have been left behind. (*)
:notgood:
(*) There was a mention of this in July or August, when inhabitants of the surrounding villages were interviewed.
Some body parts, limbs had been laying in a field and one day they were gone, the villagers had not seen any rescuers and assumed that the dogs had taken the parts to the woods.
If I remember correctly, I did not copy it at the time, because I found it too shocking. I regret that now.
Anyway, dogs will be dogs. Same for wolves. I do not doubt that they will do this if they are given the chance.
Let's hope the fire brigades salvaged all remains.
ALL BELONGINGS OF VICTIMS MH17 HAVE BEEN COLLECTED
Nieuwsuur reports:
http://nieuwsuur.nl/onderwerp/709988-de-afhandeling-van-ramp-mh17.html
All personal belongings of the victims of the disaster flight MH17 in Eastern Ukraine have been collected. That says a minister of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk. But the Dutch repatriation mission still wants to return to the area. Tomorrow a critical Dutch Parliament will discuss the handling of the disaster.
The last items on the crash site were removed yesterday, according to Alexei Kostroebitski, Minister of Civil Defense. "We have completed the technical side, the Dutch were present and they were pleased with how we went about our work."
When asked whether his men will go on a further search, Kostroebitski's answer is: "There's nothing left to search for, we've gathered all the stuff."
In the areas where the international investigators were not allowed to search, nothing is left according to the Minister, with exception of some pieces of the wreckage. He points out that in the first days after the crash all personal belongings were been removed from there.
A spokesman for the Department of Security and Justice said that The Netherlands still wants to return to the crash site to search themselves for human remains and belongings of the victims . That certainly applies to the places where the Dutch repatriation mission has not previously been.
Yesterday, the Dutch head of the repatriation mission, Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg told Nieuwsuur that members of the local Ukrainian Agency for Disaster (SES, State Emergency Service) had gathered nine cubic feet of personal belongings that day.
The collected belongings pass through Donetsk on their way to Kharkiv. There forensic experts will examine the items, and they will be transported to The Netherlands as soon as possible.
Relatives of the victims of the attack on Flight MH17 decided last week that they are going to sue the Dutch State for gross negligence and carelessness in the handling of the tragedy with the airplane.
That news came out after the howling blunder of Dutch FM Frans Timmermans. Timmermans said during a broadcast of 'Pauw' that one of the victims had an oxygen mask. That was not known to the relatives .
The criminal investigation into the perpetrators of the attack on flight MH17 is the largest police investigation ever in The Netherlands.
BBM
Nieuwsuur reports:
http://nieuwsuur.nl/onderwerp/709988-de-afhandeling-van-ramp-mh17.html
All personal belongings of the victims of the disaster flight MH17 in Eastern Ukraine have been collected. That says a minister of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk. But the Dutch repatriation mission still wants to return to the area. Tomorrow a critical Dutch Parliament will discuss the handling of the disaster.
The last items on the crash site were removed yesterday, according to Alexei Kostroebitski, Minister of Civil Defense. "We have completed the technical side, the Dutch were present and they were pleased with how we went about our work."
When asked whether his men will go on a further search, Kostroebitski's answer is: "There's nothing left to search for, we've gathered all the stuff."
In the areas where the international investigators were not allowed to search, nothing is left according to the Minister, with exception of some pieces of the wreckage. He points out that in the first days after the crash all personal belongings were been removed from there.
A spokesman for the Department of Security and Justice said that The Netherlands still wants to return to the crash site to search themselves for human remains and belongings of the victims . That certainly applies to the places where the Dutch repatriation mission has not previously been.
Yesterday, the Dutch head of the repatriation mission, Pieter-Jaap Aalbersberg told Nieuwsuur that members of the local Ukrainian Agency for Disaster (SES, State Emergency Service) had gathered nine cubic feet of personal belongings that day.
The collected belongings pass through Donetsk on their way to Kharkiv. There forensic experts will examine the items, and they will be transported to The Netherlands as soon as possible.
Relatives of the victims of the attack on Flight MH17 decided last week that they are going to sue the Dutch State for gross negligence and carelessness in the handling of the tragedy with the airplane.
That news came out after the howling blunder of Dutch FM Frans Timmermans. Timmermans said during a broadcast of 'Pauw' that one of the victims had an oxygen mask. That was not known to the relatives .
The criminal investigation into the perpetrators of the attack on flight MH17 is the largest police investigation ever in The Netherlands.
BBM
They mean everything that was left behind. Among those items were a Malaysian passport, a quartz wristwatch - stil ticking- and creditcards.
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All but two Australian victims of the MH17 crash have been identified amid doubts that investigators will ever be able to return to the crash site in eastern Ukraine.
The West Australian understands 272 of the 298 victims from the July 17 disaster have been identified, including 36 of the 38 Australians and three non-Australians who had a partner or parents living in Australia.
So far, 17 Australian victims of the Malaysia Airlines crash have been repatriated from the Netherlands, where the identification process will continue until early next year.
A plane with the remains of several victims is expected in Melbourne this week.
Some families chose to have the remains of loved ones cremated in the Netherlands.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/25260738/australian-mh17-victims-coming-home/
The West Australian understands 272 of the 298 victims from the July 17 disaster have been identified, including 36 of the 38 Australians and three non-Australians who had a partner or parents living in Australia.
So far, 17 Australian victims of the Malaysia Airlines crash have been repatriated from the Netherlands, where the identification process will continue until early next year.
A plane with the remains of several victims is expected in Melbourne this week.
Some families chose to have the remains of loved ones cremated in the Netherlands.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/25260738/australian-mh17-victims-coming-home/
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Vladimir Putin's official spokesman has described Prime Minister Tony Abbott's comments about "shirtfronting" the Russian leader as "very unfortunate".
In the first direct response from the Kremlin, Mr Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov told the ABC "we are sorry about these unfortunate statements".
Russian prime minister Dmitry Medvedev has responded to Mr Abbott's comments, and is warning Australia's PM to "choose his words carefully".
Yesterday Mr Abbott moderated his language, saying only that he would have a "very robust conversation" with Mr Putin.
At present the two leaders are not scheduled to meet at the Brisbane G20 summit, being held on November 15-16.
But Mr Putin's spokesman said the Australian and Russian leaders would certainly have the opportunity to exchange their views, "preferably in a more diplomatic way".
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-15/moscow-responds-to-abbott-shirtfront-comment/5814258
In the first direct response from the Kremlin, Mr Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov told the ABC "we are sorry about these unfortunate statements".
Russian prime minister Dmitry Medvedev has responded to Mr Abbott's comments, and is warning Australia's PM to "choose his words carefully".
Yesterday Mr Abbott moderated his language, saying only that he would have a "very robust conversation" with Mr Putin.
At present the two leaders are not scheduled to meet at the Brisbane G20 summit, being held on November 15-16.
But Mr Putin's spokesman said the Australian and Russian leaders would certainly have the opportunity to exchange their views, "preferably in a more diplomatic way".
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-15/moscow-responds-to-abbott-shirtfront-comment/5814258
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A plan to upgrade Brisbane hotels to the six and seven-star standards required by G20 leaders has been shelved.
"They will be staying in the splendid hotels of Brisbane," Prime Minister Tony Abbott said.
"My friend (Russian President Vladimir Putin) will be staying in a fine hotel, I'm sure. And I'm sure that will be a comfort to him after the robust conversations that he'll have," Mr Abbott said.
Foreign Minister Julie Bishop will be meeting with Mr Putin among other leaders at the Asia Europe meeting in Italy later this week.
http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...treatment-for-g20-leaders#8ydWQYtQlXr20o4Y.99
If I didn't know better, I'd think we didn't want Putin to come here to Australia. :whistle:
"They will be staying in the splendid hotels of Brisbane," Prime Minister Tony Abbott said.
"My friend (Russian President Vladimir Putin) will be staying in a fine hotel, I'm sure. And I'm sure that will be a comfort to him after the robust conversations that he'll have," Mr Abbott said.
Foreign Minister Julie Bishop will be meeting with Mr Putin among other leaders at the Asia Europe meeting in Italy later this week.
http://www.9news.com.au/national/20...treatment-for-g20-leaders#8ydWQYtQlXr20o4Y.99
If I didn't know better, I'd think we didn't want Putin to come here to Australia. :whistle:
DUTCH GOV'T ADMITS: NORTHWEST AREA HAS NOT BEEN SEARCHED BY ANYONE
RTL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binn...-delen-rampgebied-mh17-door-niemand-doorzocht
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/delen-rampgebied-mh17-door-niemand-doorzocht
TRANSLATION:
A substantial part of the northwest of the disaster area of the MH17 has never been searched, while satellite images show that a lot of debris is located there. This can be inferred from a map of the Ukrainian emergency services that the Dutch government has made ​​public only now.
The map (pdf) has been in the possession of the Dutch government since August 31. The Ukrainian emergency services who recovered the bodies of the victims, have indicated on this map which part of the disaster area they have searched.
Part of the disaster area of flight MH17 has still not been searched by anyone, admits the government for the first time. Earlier, the Netherlands assumed that the Ukrainian salvage workers had been everywhere.
It involves a considerable part of the northwest of the crash site. It was already known that the Dutch investigation mission was never there . But the government assumed - based on information from the Ukrainians - that the local disaster relief services had searched this area. A map published today shows that is not the case.
"We still want to go there for sure," said a spokesman for the Ministry of Security and Justice. "But it is the most dangerous part of the disaster area. There are many shellings still, even yesterday."
The Dutch mission considers it important to search this area. A significant part of the western area that has not been searched, was designated as 'Priority 1 area' because around there airplane seats were found and on the satellite map many traces of debris are seen. The majority of the bodies has been recovered in the eastern part of the disaster area.
BBM
Another map of the area, 'niet doorzocht' = not searched
RTL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binn...-delen-rampgebied-mh17-door-niemand-doorzocht
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/delen-rampgebied-mh17-door-niemand-doorzocht
TRANSLATION:
A substantial part of the northwest of the disaster area of the MH17 has never been searched, while satellite images show that a lot of debris is located there. This can be inferred from a map of the Ukrainian emergency services that the Dutch government has made ​​public only now.
The map (pdf) has been in the possession of the Dutch government since August 31. The Ukrainian emergency services who recovered the bodies of the victims, have indicated on this map which part of the disaster area they have searched.
Part of the disaster area of flight MH17 has still not been searched by anyone, admits the government for the first time. Earlier, the Netherlands assumed that the Ukrainian salvage workers had been everywhere.
It involves a considerable part of the northwest of the crash site. It was already known that the Dutch investigation mission was never there . But the government assumed - based on information from the Ukrainians - that the local disaster relief services had searched this area. A map published today shows that is not the case.
"We still want to go there for sure," said a spokesman for the Ministry of Security and Justice. "But it is the most dangerous part of the disaster area. There are many shellings still, even yesterday."
The Dutch mission considers it important to search this area. A significant part of the western area that has not been searched, was designated as 'Priority 1 area' because around there airplane seats were found and on the satellite map many traces of debris are seen. The majority of the bodies has been recovered in the eastern part of the disaster area.
BBM
Another map of the area, 'niet doorzocht' = not searched
SEPARATIST LEADER: DISASTER AREA NEAR RUSSIAN BORDER IS SAFE
RTL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/rebellenleider-rampgebied-mh17-veilig
The leader of the insurgent eastern Ukrainian region of Donetsk is surprised that there wreckage of the downed plane of Malaysia Airlines is still to be found in the disaster area after three months.
"Such lack of action raises many questions. Each piece of debris is evidence," said Prime Minister Aleksander Zachartsjenko of the separatists to the Russian state news agency TASS. According Zachartsjenko the disaster area at the border with Russia safe and investigators can simply do their work there.
BBM
RTL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/rebellenleider-rampgebied-mh17-veilig
The leader of the insurgent eastern Ukrainian region of Donetsk is surprised that there wreckage of the downed plane of Malaysia Airlines is still to be found in the disaster area after three months.
"Such lack of action raises many questions. Each piece of debris is evidence," said Prime Minister Aleksander Zachartsjenko of the separatists to the Russian state news agency TASS. According Zachartsjenko the disaster area at the border with Russia safe and investigators can simply do their work there.
BBM
Donamena
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Am I missing something????
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It's been almost four months since the world was left shaken by the downing of Malaysia AirlinesFlight MH17, but harrowing pictures from the crash site today show how the remnants of smouldering wreckage remain untouched at the devastated scene.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/15/mh17-crash-site-pictures_n_5990938.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/15/mh17-crash-site-pictures_n_5990938.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
You're probably missing part of the fun .... :whoosh:
DUTCH GOVERNMENT TO AWARD COMMEMORATIVE MEDAL TO UKRANIAN RESCUERS
RTL-Nieuws reports:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/onderzoek-mh17-vliegramp#node_1109571
Translation:
All the aid workers who helped with the recovery and identification of victims of the plane crash in Ukraine and who collected the belongings, will be awarded a Commemorative Medal by The Netherlands as a tribute.
Minister Ivo Opstelten of Security and Justice announced this during a debate in the House about the aftermath of the disaster flight MH17.
The medal is not only for Dutch forensic experts and others who have been involved in the aftermath of the disaster in Ukraine or Netherlands.
The Ukrainian aid workers who were first responders in the disaster area and secured remains and belongings will receive one too. "They have done important work, and a tribute is suitable" according to Opstelten.
He says it's not an attempt to make up for the criticism that the government voiced in the first days after the disaster at the local rescuers. Prime Minister Mark Rutte openly showed his disgust for the way people were 'messing' among the debris with personal and recognizable property of victims. Reality turned out to be different, and the government acknowledged that the rescuers have handled the items and the remains in a correct way
"The government had major concerns, there were images. Then you may be furious too. Nevertheless people have done a great job," Opstelten said after the debate in Parliament.
BBM
:winkaway: :winkaway: :winkaway: :winkaway:
A QUIET WALK AROUND THE CHRASH SITE, HUMAN REMAINS (?) STILL THERE THREE MONTHS LATER
Reporter Graham Philips has a video channel with lots of material about Ukraine crisis and MH17
Graham Phillips @GrahamWP_UK · 32 min
All filmed today on scene- Part 1/2 - Special Report - MH17 3 Months On - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhqWi5cavY #MH17 #Ukrainewar #MalaysiaAirlines
[video=youtu;GAhqWi5cavY]http://youtu.be/GAhqWi5cavY[/video]
Graham Phillips ‏@GrahamWP_UK
Shockingly at #MH17 site, 3 months on, at least 2 examples of what seems surely human bone, still there at the scene.
I'm not an expert in aviation investigation. But no one on scene, all wreckage still there, bones there. Something feels very wrong at #MH17
It's deserted, it's a mess,some still smells of burning. Very hard to feel a real investigation is taking place.#MH17
@OSCE @Onderzoeksraad why are Human remains still among the wreckage of the #MH17 crashsite? #Donetsk #Ukraine #OSCE
BBM
Pictures and video at link: https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK
Q:
"@OSCE @Onderzoeksraad why are Human remains still among the wreckage of the #MH17 crashsite?"
A:
IMHO this is all due to lack of political will
Reporter Graham Philips has a video channel with lots of material about Ukraine crisis and MH17
Graham Phillips @GrahamWP_UK · 32 min
All filmed today on scene- Part 1/2 - Special Report - MH17 3 Months On - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAhqWi5cavY #MH17 #Ukrainewar #MalaysiaAirlines
[video=youtu;GAhqWi5cavY]http://youtu.be/GAhqWi5cavY[/video]
Graham Phillips ‏@GrahamWP_UK
Shockingly at #MH17 site, 3 months on, at least 2 examples of what seems surely human bone, still there at the scene.
I'm not an expert in aviation investigation. But no one on scene, all wreckage still there, bones there. Something feels very wrong at #MH17
It's deserted, it's a mess,some still smells of burning. Very hard to feel a real investigation is taking place.#MH17
@OSCE @Onderzoeksraad why are Human remains still among the wreckage of the #MH17 crashsite? #Donetsk #Ukraine #OSCE
BBM
Pictures and video at link: https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK
Q:
"@OSCE @Onderzoeksraad why are Human remains still among the wreckage of the #MH17 crashsite?"
A:
IMHO this is all due to lack of political will
FLIGHT MH17 VICTIMS ARRIVE BACK IN AUSTRALIA FOR BURIAL
The Australian reports:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...093187595?nk=09180b70d3ac195e45b4d4e938a08d67
Sources confirmed that a substantial repatriation took place yesterday.
The Victorian Coroner is co-ordinating the certification process for the bodies, *meaning all the victims will go to Melbourne before returning to their home states for burial.
The flight carrying the victims arrived in Melbourne about 4.30pm after departing from Eindhoven in The Netherlands.
Defence personnel carried the coffins from the Globemaster transport plane into a hangar as a lone piper played.
Family members greeted the coffins as they arrived.
A total of 298 people lost their lives in the tragedy. All but two of the Australian victims have now been identified. It is thought 27 of the Australian victims have now been returned to home soil.
BBM
Mo, 12, Evie, 10 and Otis, 8, have finally returned home. RIP
:rose:
The Australian reports:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...093187595?nk=09180b70d3ac195e45b4d4e938a08d67
Sources confirmed that a substantial repatriation took place yesterday.
The Victorian Coroner is co-ordinating the certification process for the bodies, *meaning all the victims will go to Melbourne before returning to their home states for burial.
The flight carrying the victims arrived in Melbourne about 4.30pm after departing from Eindhoven in The Netherlands.
Defence personnel carried the coffins from the Globemaster transport plane into a hangar as a lone piper played.
Family members greeted the coffins as they arrived.
A total of 298 people lost their lives in the tragedy. All but two of the Australian victims have now been identified. It is thought 27 of the Australian victims have now been returned to home soil.
BBM
Mo, 12, Evie, 10 and Otis, 8, have finally returned home. RIP
:rose:
Donamena
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Words usually never fail me. My ignorance of European government is abysmal. So please, 'Indian Red' ZaZara..explain this to me: .the EU can do nothing. The UN can so nothing. I've watched too much American CSI.
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bones still there?!?!?!?!?!?!??! My heart hurts. Can no one do anything? Are we so afraid of the Russians?????? What is it????
?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bones still there?!?!?!?!?!?!??! My heart hurts. Can no one do anything? Are we so afraid of the Russians?????? What is it????
Dona, thank you for believing that I can explain it all ..... :hills:
The Netherlands have the lead in ther investigation and the salvage expedition. The LEAD. As in LEADER. :maddening:
This is what I wrote on October 14:
and this is a map of the network of pipelines that transport natural gas from Russia to Ukraine and the EU:
Another map with the pipelines in Ukraine:
Somehow I wish that the burden wouldf have fallen on Australia or Malaysia, but they have suffered so many losses already.
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Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has delivered a diplomatic version of the 'shirt front' promised by Prime Minister Tony Abbott as Russia came under fire over the fate of flight MH17 at the ASEM summit.
Bishop revealed that she had taken her Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov to task on the sidelines of the Asia-Europe gathering.
She said she had bluntly spelled out her government's frustration at what it sees as Moscow's hampering of the Dutch-led probe into the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner over eastern Ukraine in July.
Bishop acknowledged that veteran diplomat Lavrov had flat-batted her complaints, ensuring the explosive issue is likely to resurface when Putin visits Australia for next month's G20 summit.
'The response was somewhat predictable,' Bishop said.
'He said it was a matter for Ukraine, as a crash that occurred in Ukrainian airspace. That is not a view I share.'
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/national/2014/10/17/bishop-chides-lavrov-over-mh17-probe.html
Bishop revealed that she had taken her Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov to task on the sidelines of the Asia-Europe gathering.
She said she had bluntly spelled out her government's frustration at what it sees as Moscow's hampering of the Dutch-led probe into the shooting down of the Malaysian airliner over eastern Ukraine in July.
Bishop acknowledged that veteran diplomat Lavrov had flat-batted her complaints, ensuring the explosive issue is likely to resurface when Putin visits Australia for next month's G20 summit.
'The response was somewhat predictable,' Bishop said.
'He said it was a matter for Ukraine, as a crash that occurred in Ukrainian airspace. That is not a view I share.'
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/national/2014/10/17/bishop-chides-lavrov-over-mh17-probe.html
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Maslin angels return home.
Their parents Anthony Maslin and Rin Norris travelled to Melbourne to meet the plane carrying the remains of their children and their grandfather Nick Norris, 68, who also died on the flight.
Foreign Minister Julie Bishop paid tribute to the Maslin children and the bravery of their parents, vowing to seek justice for all the victims.
She (had) referred to the Maslins in her speech to the Security Council in New York, and when she told their story to Russia's Ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin's eyes welled with tears, before saying he had children, too.
Ms Bishop was scheduled to meet Dutch PM Mark Rutte overnight.
"I'll keep my focus on ensuring we can get the final visits to the crash site to ensure that we are able to repatriate all of the remains that we can locate and supporting the Dutch-led investigation," she said.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/25279211/maslin-angels-return-home/
Their parents Anthony Maslin and Rin Norris travelled to Melbourne to meet the plane carrying the remains of their children and their grandfather Nick Norris, 68, who also died on the flight.
Foreign Minister Julie Bishop paid tribute to the Maslin children and the bravery of their parents, vowing to seek justice for all the victims.
She (had) referred to the Maslins in her speech to the Security Council in New York, and when she told their story to Russia's Ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin's eyes welled with tears, before saying he had children, too.
Ms Bishop was scheduled to meet Dutch PM Mark Rutte overnight.
"I'll keep my focus on ensuring we can get the final visits to the crash site to ensure that we are able to repatriate all of the remains that we can locate and supporting the Dutch-led investigation," she said.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/25279211/maslin-angels-return-home/
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