GUILTY Netherlands - Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 #4

  • #481
I saw tweeted photos of the cockpit being retrieved today, followed seconds after by reports of international monitors being shot at, 15km away. The teams who have worked so hard to bring back the missing and the plane wreckage have my utmost admiration.

ETA: I believe the cockpit may demonstrate some of the clearest evidence of a missile strike.
 
  • #482
I saw tweeted photos of the cockpit being retrieved today, followed seconds after by reports of international monitors being shot at, 15km away. The teams who have worked so hard to bring back the missing and the plane wreckage have my utmost admiration.

ETA: I believe the cockpit may demonstrate some of the clearest evidence of a missile strike.

Some suspected that the cockpit had been 'stolen' because of the possible proof, but apparently it was there beneath the rubble all the time. I've seen some surprised tweets :-)


NOS.nl reports:
http://nos.nl/artikel/2004822-cockpit-van-mh17-boeing-geborgen.html -> with PICTURES

Translation

In eastern Ukraine the cockpit from the MH17-Boeing has been salvaged. On the fifth day of the salvage operation the Dutch team has hoisted the cockpit onto a truck and taken it away for examination.

The cockpit of the Boeing 777 Malaysia Airlines is very badly damaged, but still recognizable as such. Like the other wreckage the cockpit will be transferred to Kharkov and flown from there to The Netherlands.

The Dutch Safety Board, leader of the salvage, said that the operation is proceeding as planned. The Board expects to have a few working days left at the crash site near the village of Grabovo.

BBM
 
  • #483
ONCE AGAIN HUMAN REMAINS FOUND AT CRASH SITE


De Telegraaf reports:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/23355501/__Meer_resten_op_rampplek_MH17__.html

Translation:



At the crash site of flight MH17 in Ukraine human remains were salvaged on Thursday. This was announced after the work ended for the day.
Among the wreckage, a part of the cockpit has been recovered.
The human remains were transferred to Kharkov. At a later moment that has still be to decided, they will be brought to The Netherlands together with the personal belongings.


BBM

:rose:
 
  • #484
And down the rabbit hole again. :banghead::heartbeat:
 
  • #485
The Dutch government has refused to reveal details of a secret pact between members of the Joint Investigation Team examining the downed Flight MH17. If the participants, including Ukraine, don’t want information to be released, it will be kept secret.

The respected Dutch publication Elsevier made a request to the Dutch Ministry of Security and Justice under the Freedom of Information Act to disclose the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) agreement, along with 16 other documents. The JIT consists of four countries - the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia and Ukraine - who are carrying out an investigation into the MH17 disaster, but not Malaysia.

Part of the agreement between the four countries and the Dutch Public Prosecution Service, ensures that all these parties have the right to secrecy. This means that if any of the countries involved believe that some of the evidence may be damaging to them, they have the right to keep this secret.

“Of course [it is] an incredible situation: how can Ukraine, one of the two suspected parties, ever be offered such an agreement?” Dutch citizen Jan Fluitketel wrote in the newspaper Malaysia Today.

http://rt.com/news/207243-netherlands-mh17-investigation-documents/
 
  • #486
The Dutch government has refused to reveal details of a secret pact between members of the Joint Investigation Team examining the downed Flight MH17. If the participants, including Ukraine, don’t want information to be released, it will be kept secret.

The respected Dutch publication Elsevier made a request to the Dutch Ministry of Security and Justice under the Freedom of Information Act to disclose the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) agreement, along with 16 other documents. The JIT consists of four countries - the Netherlands, Belgium, Australia and Ukraine - who are carrying out an investigation into the MH17 disaster, but not Malaysia.

Part of the agreement between the four countries and the Dutch Public Prosecution Service, ensures that all these parties have the right to secrecy. This means that if any of the countries involved believe that some of the evidence may be damaging to them, they have the right to keep this secret.

“Of course [it is] an incredible situation: how can Ukraine, one of the two suspected parties, ever be offered such an agreement?” Dutch citizen Jan Fluitketel wrote in the newspaper Malaysia Today.

http://rt.com/news/207243-netherlands-mh17-investigation-documents/

This is totally surreal. Who on earth is mr Fluitketel and why should a dubious blog (?) of his hand have such an 'impact'??
I am lost for words. I don't even know where to begin.

Let me put it to you like this:

This story is available through all mainstream Dutch news media.
I've seen it, I've read it and I felt no need or urgency to make a translation.

And now someone who goes by the name of Whistling Kettle writes something on one of these conspiracy blogs and BOOM the thing goes viral via RT.com.

IMHO they must be pretty desperate.


:what: :freakedout: :what: :freakedout:
 
  • #487
This is totally surreal. Who on earth is mr Fluitketel and why should a dubious blog (?) of his hand have such an 'impact'??
I am lost for words. I don't even know where to begin.

Let me put it to you like this:

This story is available through all mainstream Dutch news media.
I've seen it, I've read it and I felt no need or urgency to make a translation.

And now someone who goes by the name of Whistling Kettle writes something on one of these conspiracy blogs and BOOM the thing goes viral via RT.com.

IMHO they must be pretty desperate.


:what: :freakedout: :what: :freakedout:


I get the feeling that the Malaysians are starting to make a bit of noise about not being invited to be on the MH17 criminal investigation team. The article speaks a lot about that, and that is what I think it is really about ... particularly as Fluitketel's comments were taken from the Malaysia Today newspaper.

It is a bit strange that they are not on the investigative team, and I can't quite figure out why. But I suspect it has something to do with the private talks they had with the Donetsk People's Republic and 'officially recognising' them before they were given the black boxes.
 
  • #488
I get the feeling that the Malaysians are starting to make a bit of noise about not being invited to be on the MH17 criminal investigation team. The article speaks a lot about that, and that is what I think it is really about ... particularly as Fluitketel's comments were taken from the Malaysia Today newspaper.

It is a bit strange that they are not on the investigative team, and I can't quite figure out why. But I suspect it has something to do with the private talks they had with the Donetsk People's Republic and 'officially recognising' them before they were given the black boxes.

If I remember well, the fact that Malaysia is not on the criminal investigation team had or has to do with the differences in legal systems. For example, the death penalty still exists in Malaysia, all other participants have abolished it long ago.
I believe the plan was to have them later join the criminal investigation team, and indeed Ukraine may still have been opposed .... well, if Ukraine is called one of the possible suspects by Malaysian press, this is not going to mellow Ukraine nor help the Malaysian cause much.


This fuss about the non-disclosure agreement is strange. It is naive to expect that the Freedom of Information Act would apply to an agreement between States that involves disclore of information from Secret Services or qualified military information, for instance. Dutch MP's know this of course, and they have their channels of being informed on the basis of non-disclosure.
But Dutch MP's also have their own battles with the Government, and recently, MP's have had to rely on the freedom of Information Act to get the info from the Government, info that they should have been given automatically at the first request. Or the Parliament did not get the info, but the press did, om basis of the FoI act.
So there is history and quite frankly, this is not the kind of democracy we want to be and I stand behind the MP's and the press, with exception of this case.

As for the Whistling Kettle .... I can't get over that one.
I'd love to see SouthAussie mentioned as a source in the Malaysian press, or ZaZara for that matter....

:laughing:
 
  • #489
HUMAN REMAINS FOUND AT THE CRASH SITE ON FRIDAY

The Dutch Department of Security and Justice announces:
http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/ministe...bezittingen-en-wrakstukken-mh17-geborgen.html

Translation:


Today wreckage of flight MH-17 was once again recovered at the crash site in eastern Ukraine. During the salvage operations also human remains and personal belongings have been found. These belongings include to clothes and jewelry.

According to the Dutch Safety Board the salvage operations have gone well. The salvaged wreckage will be transported to Kharkov by train at a later time. The team expects to be busy with the work for a few more days. The work can hopefully be completed soon. The security situation is and remains fragile.


BBM


:rose:
 
  • #490
MH17 WRECKAGE ARRIVED IN KHARKOV


De Volkskrant reports:
http://www.volkskrant.nl/dossier-rampvlucht-mh17/wrakstukken-mh17-aangekomen-in-charkov~a3796279/

Translation

This afternoon [Saturday] wreckage of flight MH17 has arrived in the Ukrainian city of Kharkov. The parts of wreckage were transferred from the disaster area with two flatbed trailers, a journey of about 300 kilometers. "In the interests of the investigation" the Dutch Safety Board will not say what parts it concerns.

It is envisaged that the wreckage will be brought from Kharkov to The Netherlands, but it is not yet known when that happens. In The Netherlands, investigators want to reconstruct a part of the plane.
This may offer them a picture of what happened on 17 July.

The flatbed trailers transport parts of the disaster unit that were too large to be transported by train. Smaller parts are stored in wagons near the crash site.

According to the rebels in eastern Ukraine that train will leave on Sunday for Kharkov, but the Dutch Safety Board will only comment about this once the train is actually on its way.
"We still have a long road ahead. The fact that the first debris are now in Kharkov, is the first step in a difficult logistical operation. The planning depends on so many circumstances , it can change rapidly. So we work step by step," a spokesman said.


BBM


2619332.jpeg

Debris of MH17 on a platform in front of the wagons at the train station © ANP
 
  • #491
TRAIN WITH WRECKAGE IS ON ITS WAY TO KHARKOV


NOS-nieuws reports:
http://nos.nl/artikel/2005256


Translation:

A train with wreckage of flight MH17 on its way to the Ukrainian city of Kharkov, the Dutch Safety Board reports.

The train departed from Pelgejevski, a suburb of Torez.

Yesterday the AAM did not know with certainty whether the train would depart today, because of the unstable situation in the region.
Saturday, larger debris from the unit already arrived on low loaders in Kharkov.


BBM

Pictures at link


Pffff.... this is such a crucial step in the investigation..... let's try not holding our breath until that train arrives in Kharkov....
 
  • #492
DUTCH SAFETY BOARD: OPERATION TO RECOVER WRECKAGE HAS ENDED


Onderzoeksraad ‏@Onderzoeksraad:

(1/3) The recovered wreckage of flight #MH17 is underway towards Kharkov. The train loaded with wreckage departed from Torez this morning.

(2/3) Along with the transport from Torez to Kharkov, last weeks operation to recover wreckage has ended. #MH17

(3/3) As many wreckage relevant for the investigation as possible was recovered, all within realms of possibility at the crashsite. #MH17

B3IcEIBIgAAB1bf.jpg large.jpg


Impression of earlier this day: train carrying wreckage # MH17 on the way to Kharkov.


BBM
 
  • #493
DUTCH SECURITY COUNCIL: TRAIN HAS ARRIVED IN KHARKOV


Onderzoeksraad ‏@Onderzoeksraad


The train with wreckage of flight #MH17 has arrived in Kharkov.


BBM



:toast:
 
  • #494
ADDITIONAL BOUNTY OF 17 MILLION DOLLARS OFFERED


Capital. de reports: .
http://www.capital.de/themen/wir-brauchen-einen-zweiten-snowden-3073.html


Translation


Two months ago, the German private investigator Josef Resch offered a bounty of $ 30 million for information leading to the backers of [the downing of MH17].
His client remains anonymous. In an interview with Capital, he explains the status of his investigation and why his client has raised the reward with an additional 17 million dollars.


Capital: Mr. Resch, two months ago you have started their investigation into the crash of the MH 17. The media response was enormous. Your bounty hunting has been reported worldwide.
And then all became very quickly very silent.


Resch: What did you expect? That we'd present the offender after two days?

Not after two days, but after two months, the question must be permitted: Do you have a hot lead?

We have progressed a long way. We are now in a phase in which we are holding talks. Face to face. Such a conversation is preceded by weeks of initiation in advance.
Mostly through middlemen. We must be very careful.

How many clues did you get?

One has to distinguish. In total, there were over 1000 mails, hundreds of calls and dozens of letters with documents.
I believe every conspiracy theorist on this earth has contacted me. And every amateur detective.
There are also those who are keen on the money and prepare mediocre professional documents.


How do you filter these out?

Well, 99 percent of the tips you can toss immediately. A lot of busybodies. The remaining ones are worth a closer look. I call this plausibility checks.
About ten informants were initially found to be interesting. Five have remained.

With a clear result?

No. This is now our job to figure out what is real and what is fake.

Most clues are not going to be in German. Can you read Russian?

No. And my English is rather modest. But I do not work alone.

How big is your team?

I do not have permanent employees. I am involved in my network, the people I need at the right moment, that I know and whom I trust. We have interpreters among them, IT specialists and analysts.
They will never make a public appearance. For security and tactical reasons. As I have already said, we have just arrived at the stage of face to face meetings.
The other day we talked informants from Hungary. Meeting place was a hotel. Supposedly, the two spoke no German. I posted an employee only hours before the meeting in the lobby. And he heard how the lady ordered a coffee in nearly flawless German. Funny, is not it?

What does that tell you?

That not cards are laid on the table. In addition, the information was quite poor. It was probably more about getting to know me.

Do you have already received the documents that you consider to be controversial?

Yes. We have received many documents. Correspondences between authorities. A lot of lines of evidence. Perhaps even with the all-important evidence among them.
Only: We can not recognize it as such, not establish that it is genuine. One thing is certain, we have received very good fakes.
One time the Ukrainians, the other time Russians and even some times the separatists were responsible for firing.
So there is a great interest to sell us expensive fakes as genuine.

How can you ensure the safety of informants?

There is not one way. I am often asked this question by alledged informers, but they probably only want to find out how we work. We'll find a way, believe me. But that way is certainly not straight.
And there is no blueprint for it. That would be too simple. We trample on the feet of the powers that be. Therefore, it is clear that we need to be careful. Whoever covers the act must fear that he is betrayed. And so my assessment of the situation is, that in the case a lot is being covered up.

Have you actually been threatened in your investigation?

Of course I get threatening phone calls and and emails. There are attacks on my server. Last week, a DDoS attack was launched on it. It was offline for some hours. But if I would take all this to heart, I'd be in the wrong job. It's not about my safety, but that of the informants. Some promising informants, by the way, have suddenly jumped. All this shows that we have to be really careful.

More concretely: Who do you believe is responsible?

Faith belongs in the church. Yet we can not really rule out anything. But we have serious doubts about the current theory.

You mean that the pro-Russian separatists MH-17 shot down with a rocket-BUK, as the head of the Federal Intelligence Service Gerhard Schindler has stated before the members of the Parliamentary Control Panel in early October?

The point is the weirdest of all till now. The BND claims he would have gotten clear satellite images from the United States. I wonder about two things: firstly, why has the international investigation commission under the auspices of The Netherlands not received these images ? At any rate, their chief investigator Fred Westerbeke said in an interview not to know of substantiating satellite imagery.
He also said that he could not rule out any scenario.
Secondly: So the BND apparently receives top-secret information exclusively. And what does the BND-Chief do with that? He places himself in front of an assembly of politicians and tells them all about it, although everyone knows that often information from the control committee is leaked to the public. What a rubbish. This was planned to be leaked deliberately.

According to your findings, it was not the separatists then?

I did not say that. I just do not believe in the evidence. Here the game is being played wrong. The absolute, ultimate limit of disaster would be if it came out that it was the Ukraine. No intention, but an oversight. But it was covered up. Would the full support of the West for the government in Kiev be still acceptable? Probably not. And the other way around. What if a direct participation of the Russians could be detected? At a time when the West is pressing for de-escalation. And if it were the separatists? Then there is an ominous group without a state apparatus that could be held liable. That would be the easiest solution for all parties.


Back to your findings. What do you have you as concrete facts instead of theories?

We certainly have a lot of indications that the BND theory stinks.

Or evidence?

I deliberately say indications. They come from different countries. You will understand that I can not be specific. We would like to but. That is why my client ...

... Who still wants to remain anonymous?

Yes! And before you ask, well I still do not know him.

But you would like to know him?

Of course. But that's not my job. Anyway, via the middle man he has increased the reward. Precisely because of the BND history. It is still true: there is $ 30 million for evidence on those behind the act. And another 17 million dollars for clues as to how the clarification is being covered up or prevented in some countries.

Are you looking for a mole in the secret services?

The middle man put it this way: We are looking for a second Edward Snowden. We are now searching in a wide area. For this the 17 million dollars have destined. 17 because of the flight number, MH 17th

And you think intelligence services will let themselves be corrupted?

I would not say it like that. We are looking for the perpetrators, who are responsible for the deaths of 298 innocent people. If a state covers this fact, I do not think it is reprehensible to disclose that. But it's not just about intelligence. For example, shortly after the crash appeared to Twitter messages from a certain Carlos ...

... who allegedly worked for the air traffic control in Kiev. Similarly, there were recordings of alleged telephone calls by the separatists, who celebrated the launch. Red herrings?

That's what we want to find out. So back to Carlos. He tweeted that Ukraine was responsible for the shooting that Ukrainian military suddenly appeared in the tower. The next day the Twitter account was deleted. An account that has been active for a long time. This can be noted in the online archives. Ukraine said a Carlos had never worked in the tower. So was it all just a fake? Or did Carlos really exist? The $ 17 million - or part thereof - are to be used for indications that bring light into this darkness. If anyone can prove that there was this Carlos that he has been working in air traffic control, what happened to him, this is a valuable information for us that we reward them for.

This means you are at the very beginning?

Definitely not! A direction thickens. But it would be wrong to talk about it now. Let's wait for the next weeks. We need time. The first few days after the publication of the reward were pure chaos. There were dozens of interview requests from TV stations, more of print media. Camera crews were suddenly in front of my house. Photographers lounged in the neighborhood.

That should be fine by you ....

No. Of course, it is important that the media talk about my work, make it public. Otherwise we receive no information. Anything else would be foolish to assume. But do I have to tell the same thing a thousand times over? Certainly not. I was very surprised. Some assumed that I was press hungry, others complained that I would not talk to them. Then I was quoted with sentences that I never said. Like that I was once CID officer. This is total nonsense. For these games, I have no time.


BBM


:websleuther:
 
  • #495
MALAYSIA CONCERNED OVER NETHERLANDS ACTIONS IN CRASH PROBE MH17


Itar-TASS reports:
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/761484


According to the informed source, Malaysia has still not been given an opportunity to participate in the criminal investigation, contrary to the promise given by Dutch Prime Minister on November 5.

KUALA LUMPUR, November 24. /TASS/. Malaysia has expressed concern over the actually “unilateral action” taken by the Netherlands whose officials have announced the completion of the collection of the fragments of the Boeing plane (Flight MH17) that crashed in Ukraine, an informed source in the Malaysian capital told TASS.

Malaysian representatives insisted on their mandatory participation in the work at the crash site, including the study and removal of the airliner wreckage and now it is unknown in which condition they will take to the expert examination, he said. Also, Malaysia has still not been given an opportunity to participate in the criminal investigation, contrary to the promise given by Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte in Kuala Lumpur on November 5.

According to the source, Malaysia believes that due to its neutral position on the conclusions concerning the causes of the catastrophe, as well as owing to the fact that it put forward no accusations, a number of countries participating in the investigation are doing everything possible not to admit Malaysian representatives to the full-fledged investigation.


BBM


:liar:
 
  • #496
Yes, we are still seeing lots of media about Malaysia wanting to be in the criminal investigation group.

"Malaysia is also demanding that it be given a seat in the JIT. It is a demand that undoubtedly has the support of the entire nation," he said, adding that Umno, the backbone of the Malaysian government, could adopt a resolution endorsing this demand at its general assembly that ends this Saturday.

Chandra said the Malaysian parliament, which is also in session, should lend its weight to a demand, which was at the heart of our integrity and sovereignty as a nation.

"It is just not only because MH17 is ours. It is just because we have a fair and balanced approach to the tragedy and its probe. We want the entire truth to be known.

"Our participation in the investigation will at least help to check any attempt to conceal or camouflage the real story behind one of the most heinous crimes in recent times," he added.

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...investigation-asks-group#sthash.9vAIjklo.dpuf
 
  • #497
And I notice that funerals for the victims are still underway ... with some angst about the nine victims who are still unidentified or missing.

THE funeral will be held next week for a British student who had been flying to Australia to start a new life when his Malaysian Airlines MH17 flight was shot down over east Ukraine.

They also said while they could hold a funeral, with their son being positively identified late last month, they felt for the other families of nine passengers whose bodies have yet to be recovered or positively identified.

http://www.news.com.au/world/family...wn-plans-funeral/story-fndir2ev-1227135023030
 
  • #498
AUSTRALIAN DOCUMENTS CONFIRM 'CONFIDENTIALITY AGREEMENT' MH17


RTL-Nieuws is going through a lot of trouble in getting more info from the Dutch Governement about the confidentiality agreement between The Netherlands, Belgium, Australia and Ukraine ..
and all of a sudden some 'answers' come from Australia:

http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/australische-documenten-over-geheimhoudingsovereenkomst-mh17

Two documents in pictures:

The letter to which you refer is authentic ......

screenshot-australie_4.jpg


I regret that as the document is classified, the Department cannot provide you with a copy of the agreement:

screenshot-australie2_0.jpg


RTL-Nieuws comments:
http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenland/onderzoek-mh17-vliegramp

Translation:

The four countries that are working together on the criminal investigation into the disaster flight MH17 have indeed signed a confidentiality agreement.
This 'non-disclosure agreement' means that not only The Netherlands, Australia and Belgium, but also Ukraine has a veto over what may and imay not be made public. All this according to a document from the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs.

So far, the Dutch government has suggested that there was no such veto and such clause. The deal is nationally and internationally very sensitive, because the fear is that Ukraine thus has the ability to keep secret facts or information that might be unfavourable to the country. The option that Ukraine itself was involved in the disaster is officially a subject of the investigation by the Dutch Safety Board (OVV) and Justice.

(...)

The Dutch Department of Security and Justice, insists in a reaction to RTL Nieuws that there is no question of a veto: "The Australian document says nothing other than that the JIT [Joint Investigation Team] countries have agreed to exercise caution in bringing out information, they call it a non-disclosure agreement, but it is a paragraph in the JIT agreement. The government has also repeatedly expressed the view that the JIT countries have made this appointment and therefore no information about the JIT can be shared with the press or Parliament. In any case, it has nothing to do with the veto."


BBM


Often, quite often, I get these cosmic vibrations that our Government operates in a parallel universe, far away from us lesser mortals, the press and Parliament combined.


:alien3:
 
  • #499
  • #500
Sounds as though the most recently found remains will be transported to the Netherlands tomorrow (Friday).

Yesss .......


Eindhovens Dagblad reports:
http://www.ed.nl/algemeen/binnenland/rutte-vrijdag-bij-aankomst-slachtoffers-mh17-1.4644888

Translation:

THE HAGUE (ANP) - On Friday, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte will attend the arrival at Eindhoven Air Base of the remains of the victims of the plane crash with flight MH17. This was announced on Wednesday by the Department of Security and Justice.

Also will attend Deputy PM Lodewijk Asscher and Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert, Defence Secretary and FM Bert Koenders. This same ceremony will take place as on previous arrivals of victims.

The military cargo aircraft from Kharkov lands around 16:00 hrs local time (GMT+1) at Eindhoven Airport. The remains will be transferred to the Korporaal Oudheusden Kazerne in Hilversum for identification.


BBM


Six coffins with remains of the passengers will be sent to The Netherlands
Since one coffin is not one body, more mortal remains have been recovered than I imagined from reading the reports in the news.
Let's hope that the unidentified, or at least traces of them, have been found at last.


:rose:
 

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