New Details of Josh's Brainwashing Techniques

[Vhead]

34 page report here:

http://blog.thenewstribune.com/crime/2012/02/17/psychologists-report-on-josh-powell-released/

Good find thanks. The report kinda irks me .. That even this psych wasn't able to protect these children by seeing into the monster that is JP!!


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Sulamith]

On an unrelated note, I saw on the local news a couple days ago that Ann Rule had been preparing to write a book about this case, but has stopped work on it now that the boys have been murdered. It seems she won't write books that involved children dying anymore. It is too upsetting for her. I am majorly bummed because she is my favorite true crime author. I sure wish she would reconsider because I think she is the best person for the job.

Looks like Ann Rule will be writing a book about Susan. I love her books!

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53561249-78/cox-powell-case-rule.html.csp

 

[gwenabob]

Looks like Ann Rule will be writing a book about Susan. I love her books!

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53561249-78/cox-powell-case-rule.html.csp

That is good news. I'm glad she changed her mind.

 

[dovebar]

Just to follow up on something upthread, I think parents have the right to teach kids values like, "That church is not correct."

I think it is child abuse to teach kids obviously false "facts" and inculcate paranoia. Like, "your brother is dead; Mormons killed him." Or "Mormons have a posse and they are coming to kill you, so you should fear your grandfather."

This kind of lying is usually prohibited under "parental alienation syndrome" and it is observable. What bothers me is that the psychologists in this case seemed to think it was so normal and benign, even when JP did it in front of them! At the very least, he was out of touch with reality. That should have prevented this kind of visitation all by itself.

 

[Sulamith]

Just to follow up on something upthread, I think parents have the right to teach kids values like, "That church is not correct."

I think it is child abuse to teach kids obviously false "facts" and inculcate paranoia. Like, "your brother is dead; Mormons killed him." Or "Mormons have a posse and they are coming to kill you, so you should fear your grandfather."

This kind of lying is usually prohibited under "parental alienation syndrome" and it is observable. What bothers me is that the psychologists in this case seemed to think it was so normal and benign, even when JP did it in front of them! At the very least, he was out of touch with reality. That should have prevented this kind of visitation all by itself.

I agree with you dovebar. In my state there is a megachurch pastor that has been telling the news/Christian TV/radio how he feels about Mormons and not painting that faith in a very good light. He is against Mitt Romney (LDS) for the US Presidential Republican candidate. I have met a few people in the US that have never heard of the LDS/Mormon church. (surprised me, they were not immigrants) My point is, it might be possible that the psychologists had never heard of Mormons so those outrageous comments by Josh Powell went in one ear and out the other or they might have held some prejudice towards the Mormons and just shined on those comments made by J.P.???

 

[dovebar]

I agree with you dovebar. In my state there is a megachurch pastor that has been telling the news/Christian TV/radio how he feels about Mormons and not painting that faith in a very good light. He is against Mitt Romney (LDS) for the US Presidential Republican candidate. I have met a few people in the US that have never heard of the LDS/Mormon church. (surprised me, they were not immigrants) My point is, it might be possible that the psychologists had never heard of Mormons so those outrageous comments by Josh Powell went in one ear and out the other or they might have held some prejudice towards the Mormons and just shined on those comments made by J.P.???

The latter seems more likely.

Sadly, from that recently posted link with more on the psych status of the boys, JP and SP were really abusing and traumatizing those boys in any number of ways.

 

[ThoughtFox]

I agree with you dovebar. In my state there is a megachurch pastor that has been telling the news/Christian TV/radio how he feels about Mormons and not painting that faith in a very good light. He is against Mitt Romney (LDS) for the US Presidential Republican candidate. I have met a few people in the US that have never heard of the LDS/Mormon church. (surprised me, they were not immigrants) My point is, it might be possible that the psychologists had never heard of Mormons so those outrageous comments by Josh Powell went in one ear and out the other or they might have held some prejudice towards the Mormons and just shined on those comments made by J.P.???

Most people in the U.S. have heard of Mormons. We all learn about Mormon history in school too. Heck - my kids learned about Mormons various ways, from having Mormon friends at school, and also playing the game Oregon Trail. My favorite teacher in High School was a Mormon. Lots of people research genealogy through Mormon records.

So I don't believe ignorance is the right excuse for what they did. I think these psychologists and social workers, not to mention the Judge who was way off base, were looking on the bright side too much. I think they believed JP was just ranting, and even though it was clearly inappropriate speech in front of the kids (not to mention the thinking behind it), for some reason they glossed over the whole thing.

I think so much ranting goes on in this country about one religious belief versus another, even among Christians, so that it has almost become background noise. Just turn on the TV at any time during the day - it's Catholics versus Protestants, Evangelicals against Mormons and Catholics. It's making us all crazy. :twocents: Rick Santorum ranting about Obama not being a real Protestant, or Protestants being in a shambles (yeah, right). Then Franklin Graham, a Protestant, ranting about Obama being a Muslim (he isn't), then saying Romney isn't a Christian!

When people get so used to hearing this stuff day after day, then it doesn't seem dangerous anymore, unfortunately. I think all the rhetoric needs to be toned down - religious wars have started for a lot less than some of these statements.

I'm about ready to go live in a cabin somewhere like Henry David Thoreau and have a religious epiphany in nature. Or maybe we can get back to separation of church and state, and the fact that there is no religious "test" in order to hold office acc. to the Constitution.

 

[Pensfan]

PLZ EXCUSE THE RIDICULOUS ERRORS THIS TOUCHPAD SUCKS!



A Question I have that there they may not be an answer for is my wanting to know what exactlywould have motivated Josh to use the depraved method of chopping the boys necks witha hatchet as a means of incapacitating the boys??.. imo it seems as tho itd be the absolute last way a parent would choose if in such a position[which it goes without saying that the situation itself is unfathomable] but i believe most understand what im trying to say here..

It is brutal, depraved, and would strike immense fear and terror in those few possible moments of comprehension[especially for Braden who witnessed Charrlie being hatcheted].. This for me does in no way convey that which the Powell's are claiming for the deaths to be..as in somehow done out of immense love for his sons...

I hope I am being clear enough in what is im attempting to say/ask.. What i mean is that the chopping with a hatchet was most likely done to keep the boys from escaping, period.. imo there isno bs like he did to alleviate the suffering ofbeing burned to death...bull****!.. it was done so those boyscouldnt attempt to run for their lives.. my question is why not blunt force trauma????

I believe i am not alone in that the act of his chpping their necks with a hatchet/ax is what takes the entire murder to a whole new level of horrific[and when you add in the "I've got a surprise for you, charlie"..well that just is without words].. so, again my question of why would one not choose a much less depraved and horrific and yes, even less terrifying for the boys in those few moments of comprehension[and yes i absolutelybelieve that Bradens seeing Charlie struck on the back of his head, tho still traumatic, but by no means even comparableto thehorror of seeing his brother chopped in the neck with a hatchet/ax which would cause immediate and immense amount of blood].. that isjust the utmost of horrific, striking immense terror, that imo would not be anywherenear that level in seeing him whopped to the back of his head, blunt force trauma , and very likely causing unconsciousness thereby leaving them to not feel the horrific pain of being burned alive.. whereas the method chosen by josh very likely did not cause IMMEDIATE UNCONSCIOUSNESS, thereby leaving those precious boys to not only experience the horrific terror of thechoppingof their necks withahatchet/ax[especially Braden]..but then to still have to experience the excruciating pain of being burned alive!!

MY GOD IT IS TRULY ONLY THE ACTIONS OF WHICH A TRUE MONSTER WOULD BE CAPABLE OF INFLICTING!!

SO WHY WOULD HE HAVE CHOSEN SUCH DEPRAVITY OVER SOMETHING THAT NOT ONLY WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE IN TERMS OF INCAPACITATING AS WELL AS ALEVIATING THE TERROR AND PAIN OBURNING ALIVE?

Nobody will ever know for certain why he chose an ax, but the answer might be found in studies on evil people. According to psychiatrist
M. Scott Peck M.D., author of People of the Lie, the truly evil people which he studied had a conscience, but they hid from their conscience through self-deception. This is different from sociopaths who do not have a conscience.

According to Dr. Peck, the evil individual:
▪ Projects his own evil onto very specific targets
▪ Commonly hates with the pretense of love, for the purposes his self-deception and for deceiving of others
▪ Is consistent in the destructiveness of his evil deeds
▪ Is unable to think from the viewpoint of his victim
▪ Becomes furious with any form of narcissistic injury
▪ Enjoys abusing his emotional power or imposing his will upon others.
▪ Consistently self-deceives to avoid feeling any guilt

Applying the above to JP:
JP may have felt that his boys were a huge source of his problems/unhappiness. He may never have actually loved his children. Chopping them with an ax might have been consistent with the destructiveness of his other pathological behaviors, so this was not an extreme action to JP. He had zero apathy for others. He might have been furious that his connection to the boys (CPS involvement/Coxes winning custody) was injuring his sicko pride. He may have received physical and/or emotional pleasure by chopping his children with an ax and setting them on fire. He created some illogical and evil reason which justified (to him) chopping his children with an ax and this relieved him of feeling any guilt.

 

[sorrell skye]

IMO, JP attacked the boys with the hatchet before burning them alive because they had been expressing happiness about living with their maternal grandparents. JP was diagnosed as a narcissist, and I have no doubt that in his narcissistic/most-likely-sociopathic mind he saw their enjoyment of bonding with their grandparents as a betrayal.

A true narcissist will not share attention with anyone - they must be worshipped as the center of the universe. JP the narcissist saw himself as a god- and he would have no other gods before him.

JP didn't love Charlie and Braden. He didn't see them as autonomous beings with free will. IMO, he considered them his creations (i.e. his possessions) and he believed he had the ultimate authority over them - even the authority to end their lives in the most brutal manner should they "sin" (in his mind) against him.

I believe that his evil act of murdering the boys by fire was symbolic to JP - in his narcissistic/sociopathic mind, he thought he was condemning the boys to hell for "worshipping a false idol" because they grew to love their maternal grandparents, who JP saw as the devil, the enemy; whereas he viewed himself as pure and above reproach. He murdered Charlie and Braden because he was seeking vengeance against them for what he considered to be an act of betrayal for their daring to love those that he saw as his nemeses.

 

[Dal Gal]

I agree with you dovebar. In my state there is a megachurch pastor that has been telling the news/Christian TV/radio how he feels about Mormons and not painting that faith in a very good light. He is against Mitt Romney (LDS) for the US Presidential Republican candidate. I have met a few people in the US that have never heard of the LDS/Mormon church. (surprised me, they were not immigrants) My point is, it might be possible that the psychologists had never heard of Mormons so those outrageous comments by Josh Powell went in one ear and out the other or they might have held some prejudice towards the Mormons and just shined on those comments made by J.P.???

I grew up in Quincy, Illinois in the 70's and 80's and a public school field trip to Nauvoo, Illinois was an annual fact of life! If there was a Mormon populace in West Central Illinois at that time, it was negligible, but bottom line is that we were educated first hand in the plight of people from our region. And when you go to Nauvoo Village, the blacksmith sculpts really cool rings from a horseshoe nail!

30 years ago, I was educated about prejudice against a particular religion that shaped a U.S. region, so I guarantee that professional people WHO HAVE TO RELATE SOCIALLY are particularly in tune with the current culture of that region.

Which leaves your suggested prejudice, not ignorance, to blame.

ETA: Nauvoo, Illinois was a major Mormon settlement, but the believers were driven out, which created the exodus into the new U.S. territory that included Utah and Idaho. Religious freedom is a myth about America.

 

[Just K]

Most people in the U.S. have heard of Mormons. We all learn about Mormon history in school too. Heck - my kids learned about Mormons various ways, from having Mormon friends at school, and also playing the game Oregon Trail. My favorite teacher in High School was a Mormon. Lots of people research genealogy through Mormon records.

So I don't believe ignorance is the right excuse for what they did. I think these psychologists and social workers, not to mention the Judge who was way off base, were looking on the bright side too much. I think they believed JP was just ranting, and even though it was clearly inappropriate speech in front of the kids (not to mention the thinking behind it), for some reason they glossed over the whole thing.

I think so much ranting goes on in this country about one religious belief versus another, even among Christians, so that it has almost become background noise. Just turn on the TV at any time during the day - it's Catholics versus Protestants, Evangelicals against Mormons and Catholics. It's making us all crazy. :twocents: Rick Santorum ranting about Obama not being a real Protestant, or Protestants being in a shambles (yeah, right). Then Franklin Graham, a Protestant, ranting about Obama being a Muslim (he isn't), then saying Romney isn't a Christian!

When people get so used to hearing this stuff day after day, then it doesn't seem dangerous anymore, unfortunately. I think all the rhetoric needs to be toned down - religious wars have started for a lot less than some of these statements.

I'm about ready to go live in a cabin somewhere like Henry David Thoreau and have a religious epiphany in nature. Or maybe we can get back to separation of church and state, and the fact that there is no religious "test" in order to hold office acc. to the Constitution.

ITA! Just a few hours ago one of my OL friends posted an article about Santorum's general condemnation of Democrats re: being general heathens

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.co...ity-preying-on-lust/politics/2012/02/21/35088

My response was something like "UGH! Rick, c'mon...separation of church and state...ever heard of that?" Then I came here and saw your post and I thought, Wow, isn't that cool.

 

[Dal Gal]

I know it is off topic, but...RON PAUL knows the difference between state and federal!

 

[ynotdivein]

Hi peeps! Just a gentle and random reminder.

Topic (post here) <-----------------------------------------------------> Off topic (don't post here)

 

[couggal]

I agree with you dovebar. In my state there is a megachurch pastor that has been telling the news/Christian TV/radio how he feels about Mormons and not painting that faith in a very good light. He is against Mitt Romney (LDS) for the US Presidential Republican candidate. I have met a few people in the US that have never heard of the LDS/Mormon church. (surprised me, they were not immigrants) My point is, it might be possible that the psychologists had never heard of Mormons so those outrageous comments by Josh Powell went in one ear and out the other or they might have held some prejudice towards the Mormons and just shined on those comments made by J.P.???

I live in Washington state and there is quite a large Mormon population here and a Mormon temple in Seattle. I would be VERY surprised if there are functioning professionals in Washington state that do no know what Mormonism is. I agree that we hear hate filled messages about different religions so often that it just becomes benign. Sad. Does anyone think JP had some delusional thinking or were his rants and lies purely to manipulate?

 

[gwenabob]

I live in Washington state and there is quite a large Mormon population here and a Mormon temple in Seattle. I would be VERY surprised if there are functioning professionals in Washington state that do no know what Mormonism is. I agree that we hear hate filled messages about different religions so often that it just becomes benign. Sad. Does anyone think JP had some delusional thinking or were his rants and lies purely to manipulate?

I think he was just parroting his father plus displaced anger towards the LDS friends who knew Susan and helped him move from Utah. Sometimes when we feel guilty towards someone, we lash out in an effort to make them the bad guy and us the victim so we can stop feeling the guilt. JMO.

 

[concentric]

BBM

The bear story could be significant. Then again, if the "Mommy is looking for crystals" story is accurate, that kind of rules out the bear story, I think. To me, the comments about Mommy being in a mine and Mommy looking for crystals seem more likely.
-----------
I had a dream a few nights ago that investigators were searching the mines, and some of these areas were not easily navigated (very small tunnels). I also thought of the websleuths banner--the light breaking through darkness. Had a good feeling in the sense that they were trying to do a thorough search.

I have a question: What type of mechanism is used to ignite dynamite in a mine? I was thinking a box with a plunger-type handle. It would be a way for a perp. to remove evidence: underground.

Seems that there could be a propensity to destroy evidence by means of explosion, since he eventually blew up the house.

 

[GrainneDhu]

BBM

The bear story could be significant. Then again, if the "Mommy is looking for crystals" story is accurate, that kind of rules out the bear story, I think. To me, the comments about Mommy being in a mine and Mommy looking for crystals seem more likely.
-----------
I had a dream a few nights ago that investigators were searching the mines, and some of these areas were not easily navigated (very small tunnels). I also thought of the websleuths banner--the light breaking through darkness. Had a good feeling in the sense that they were trying to do a thorough search.

I have a question: What type of mechanism is used to ignite dynamite in a mine? I was thinking a box with a plunger-type handle. It would be a way for a perp. to remove evidence: underground.

Seems that there could be a propensity to destroy evidence by means of explosion, since he eventually blew up the house.

BBM

Dynamite is actually a very stable explosive, meaning that it basically takes an explosion to get it to explode. So attached to the dynamite is a blasting cap, which is a small amount of highly unstable explosive (when playing with these types of explosives, it's the blasting caps that will get you every time).

The box with the plunger handle on it is used to detonate an electric blasting cap. The box is a combination of an electric battery and a switch (the handle) with a wire that runs to the blasting cap, which is attached to the dynamite. When the switch is on (the handle plunged), the battery sends a current down the wire.

Inside the blasting cap, the electric wire is bare and skinny. This wire heats up and causes the explosive in the blasting cap to go off, which triggers the dynamite.

Or not.

The "or not" situations are very upsetting because you've got this unstable explosive sitting out there attached to dynamite and you don't know for sure what went wrong. No one wants to be the person who goes up to the explosive bundle and figure out what went wrong and yet, typically, you can't just shrug and leave it sitting there.

Keeping a pair of clean underwear on hand is recommended for such eventualities.

I digress.

The problem with explosives in a mine shaft is that they shake the ground. The whole USA is covered with seismic monitors which can detect earthquakes and anything else that shakes the ground. Seismologists can look at the graphs of seismic activity and figure out whether the activity was a tiny earthquake or an explosion underground.

Via triangulation, the epicenter of the earth movement can be located quite accurately (to within feet).

 

[concentric]

BBM

Dynamite is actually a very stable explosive, meaning that it basically takes an explosion to get it to explode. So attached to the dynamite is a blasting cap, which is a small amount of highly unstable explosive (when playing with these types of explosives, it's the blasting caps that will get you every time).

The box with the plunger handle on it is used to detonate an electric blasting cap. The box is a combination of an electric battery and a switch (the handle) with a wire that runs to the blasting cap, which is attached to the dynamite. When the switch is on (the handle plunged), the battery sends a current down the wire.

Inside the blasting cap, the electric wire is bare and skinny. This wire heats up and causes the explosive in the blasting cap to go off, which triggers the dynamite.

Or not.

The "or not" situations are very upsetting because you've got this unstable explosive sitting out there attached to dynamite and you don't know for sure what went wrong. No one wants to be the person who goes up to the explosive bundle and figure out what went wrong and yet, typically, you can't just shrug and leave it sitting there.

Keeping a pair of clean underwear on hand is recommended for such eventualities.

I digress.

The problem with explosives in a mine shaft is that they shake the ground. The whole USA is covered with seismic monitors which can detect earthquakes and anything else that shakes the ground. Seismologists can look at the graphs of seismic activity and figure out whether the activity was a tiny earthquake or an explosion underground.

Via triangulation, the epicenter of the earth movement can be located quite accurately (to within feet).

-----------
You are quite an expert in this aren't you? I mean that will due respect, not sarcasm.

I also thought about the "shaking the ground" factor. A perp. might think twice about this method of evidence removal if he/she thought it would call attention to his/her actions.

However, if a perp. did do this, then that would be good for investigators, right, because they could track the seismic activity in the area.

So thank you for your response.

 

[Nova]

I agree with you dovebar. In my state there is a megachurch pastor that has been telling the news/Christian TV/radio how he feels about Mormons and not painting that faith in a very good light. He is against Mitt Romney (LDS) for the US Presidential Republican candidate. I have met a few people in the US that have never heard of the LDS/Mormon church. (surprised me, they were not immigrants) My point is, it might be possible that the psychologists had never heard of Mormons so those outrageous comments by Josh Powell went in one ear and out the other or they might have held some prejudice towards the Mormons and just shined on those comments made by J.P.???

I can't imagine psychologists in Utah and Washington could be unaware of the Church of LDS. The Church is very popular in the West.

I was raised back east and though I had heard of Mormons, I had never noticed one of their temples. But in the Western states, the Mormon temple is like the Catholic cathedral in Europe: very often the largest and tallest building in town. Hard to miss.

 

[Sulamith]

My apology if thas been posted elsewhere, I just found it. Denise Cox, Susan's sister gave an interview to The National Enquirer (gag) in which she states that JP poisoned Susan. http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/susan-powell-was-poisoned-hubby-dumped-body