New Details of Josh's Brainwashing Techniques

[GrainneDhu]

bbm
The monster probably just changed the account pin number/password on their personal account so Susan would not be able to withdrawn funds which the monster HAD to control.

It sounds like Susan may have taken one(?) of her paychecks to the bank and cashed it with the cashier putting her money on a disposable debit cash card. At this point she opened another account or went to another bank and opened an account that the monster couldn't find. There is no doubt that the monster watched every penny like a hawk and knew immediately that Susan didn't deposit her paycheck into an account which he could control.

BBM

If Susan did this, I wonder if she knew she was moving into a high risk period?

Most domestic violence advocates and experts like Gavin de Becker say that if a person is in an abusive relationship, don't do anything the abuser can detect until the victim is in a place of safety.

Yes, if possible, prepare for leaving by siphoning off some money but don't do it in any way the abuser can detect. Rather than taking a whole paycheck and depositing it to another account, siphon off $5 every time the victim goes to the grocery store, so that the abuser has no clue or warning that the victim may be thinking of leaving.

Yes, it's sneaking around and in a *normal* relationship would be deeply dishonest. But in an abusive relationship, it's a matter of life and death to keep such preparations secret.

 

[dovebar]

Exactly.

 

[RubyBlu]

I have been so under the weather that I haven't been here in a while. I have been reading the thread with tears in my eyes from sadness and plain old rage. I just can't help thinking that none of the legal entities in the whole shmeel give a crap. Like another day, another dollar. Oh, those boys died? Hmmmm....next?! If I can see the problems and you all can see the problems, why can't or don't the people in place to take care of this see it??? It is beyond the beyond..the fake house, the hostility, Charlie acting out, , , , missing mother, narcisist, blah blah blah.

It just breaks my heart. It still feels surreal. I hope Josh stays in flames, eternal flames. The people I want to hold accountable are the law. That is besides Josh, who is not here to answer any more than he did when he was alive. And I am even more incensed that the villains have more rights than the victims, once again.

I, too, feel your rage, discontent and we do share the same tears.

This case has always held me captive and this most tragic outcome will forever haunt me.

 

[DLT88]

I don't know if you're aware of the psychology involved in abuse. It doesn't begin immediately - it is a very gradual process. An abuser is essentially a predator that stalks their prey - they learn their victim's strengths and weaknesses, hopes and fears and from that point their every manipulation is strategically designed to weaken their victim's resolve, to control, to subjugate.

Anyone can find themselves in an abusive relationship. It isn't about weakness, self esteem or socio-economics. It's about falling in love with someone who you become a thing to.

If Josh had been abusive and controlling from the moment they met Susan wouldn't have stayed. No one would - but that simply isn't how abuse works. He would have trapped her, isolated her, whittled down her self-esteem and self-worth, made her believe she would lose her children to him, used her religion against her to assert control and authority, and controlled transportation/finances to further secure domination. It would have happened over months and then years until the crazy-making, gaslighting, brainwashing, threats, isolation, control and criticisms made her believe she was the one with all the problems. It is mental torture - especially when you are trying to weigh your children's best interests as well.

She lived it everyday. Unless you've been there it is difficult to imagine how much strength it takes to survive and endure abuse at the hands of someone you love. It is devastating to the human spirit...and no one chooses it.

Very well-said. When I saw the videos of the two of them while they were dating -- such young teenagers -- with the cooing at each other and smiling and stealing kisses -- I could understand what Susan, as a very very young adult, saw in him as a potential mate for life. These men like JP are con men. They know how to play their cards and wheel in what they want. Look how much he got from CPS and the judge. He knows how to put on a show and convince others he is capable of being a good man (while, inside his warped brain, he is plotting and planning to control and destroy whatever he can reel in).

Susan was brave and strong and was growing into more so and more independent, and JP couldn't deal with that. I think by the time Susan realized the trouble she was in with JP, she had already given birth to Charlie. And, I've noticed this a lot, giving that child a sibling in life is important to them even though the marriage is so bad, so a second child is born. I've seen that many many times. It's important to these mothers that their children have someone else in this world so they are never left alone.

 

[RubyBlu]

Very well-said. When I saw the videos of the two of them while they were dating -- such young teenagers -- with the cooing at each other and smiling and stealing kisses -- I could understand what Susan, as a very very young adult, saw in him as a potential mate for life. These men like JP are con men. They know how to play their cards and wheel in what they want. Look how much he got from CPS and the judge. He knows how to put on a show and convince others he is capable of being a good man (while, inside his warped brain, he is plotting and planning to control and destroy whatever he can reel in).

Susan was brave and strong and was growing into more so and more independent, and JP couldn't deal with that. I think by the time Susan realized the trouble she was in with JP, she had already given birth to Charlie. And, I've noticed this a lot, giving that child a sibling in life is important to them even though the marriage is so bad, so a second child is born. I've seen that many many times. It's important to these mothers that their children have someone else in this world so they are never left alone.

BBM

I so agree. Thank you.

 

[Nova]

ETA: Nauvoo, Illinois was a major Mormon settlement, but the believers were driven out, which created the exodus into the new U.S. territory that included Utah and Idaho. Religious freedom is a myth about America.

Mormons were driven out of Nauvoo by an angry mob. You might as well say religious freedom is a myth because of the 9/11 hijackers.

The principle of religious freedom in this country prevents the government from establishing a particular religion and persecuting all others. It doesn't magically prevent lawbreaking or all conflicts between members of different faiths.

 

[Nova]

I don't understand where you get the idea she was "weak." I think she was far from it. She wanted to be a stay at home mom, but instead went out and earned her stockbroker's license and got a good job in the field, making herself the primary earner. She rode her bike to work every day, five miles each way for a time. She raised the boys nearly single handedly because Josh wasn't really the hands-on father type--unless it was to use the boys to thwart her. She raised a garden. She volunteered at church, even with a full time job. She may have been married to a jerk, but she made the best of it. She was planning to divorce him, but was giving him one last chance to be the man he was when they married. She knew it was going to be difficult and was taking steps to start the separation process. No, I don't see anything at all that shows Susan as weak. She was granite strong.

And quite frankly, I think the idea that her parents are purposely making her look "weak" is insulting to them and her. Anyone can look weak if they are paired with an uber control freak.

Maybe "weak" was the wrong word. Perhaps the OP just meant that Susan chose to be "submissive" based on her religious faith. Obviously, she couldn't have predicted the outcome (and let's be clear that LDS isn't the only church that names the husband as head of the household).

Since I wasn't raised in that type of family or religion, I am only speculating here.

And you are right about this much: she was obviously a highly capable woman and a loving mother.

 

[OEJ]

I don't know if you're aware of the psychology involved in abuse. It doesn't begin immediately - it is a very gradual process. An abuser is essentially a predator that stalks their prey - they learn their victim's strengths and weaknesses, hopes and fears and from that point their every manipulation is strategically designed to weaken their victim's resolve, to control, to subjugate.

Anyone can find themselves in an abusive relationship. It isn't about weakness, self esteem or socio-economics. It's about falling in love with someone who you become a thing to.

If Josh had been abusive and controlling from the moment they met Susan wouldn't have stayed. No one would - but that simply isn't how abuse works. He would have trapped her, isolated her, whittled down her self-esteem and self-worth, made her believe she would lose her children to him, used her religion against her to assert control and authority, and controlled transportation/finances to further secure domination. It would have happened over months and then years until the crazy-making, gaslighting, brainwashing, threats, isolation, control and criticisms made her believe she was the one with all the problems. It is mental torture - especially when you are trying to weigh your children's best interests as well.

She lived it everyday. Unless you've been there it is difficult to imagine how much strength it takes to survive and endure abuse at the hands of someone you love. It is devastating to the human spirit...and no one chooses it.

Absolutely excellent, BritsKate. You said it perfectly.

 

[OEJ]

I'd just like to say this is one of the clearest, best posts I've ever read online.

This is what I've been thinking about how Josh was grooming the boys. The behavior is similar - it's sadistic. It's a person who KNOWS what they have in mind, who KNOWS what their agenda is, and who is systematically, bit by bit, torturing the person before them. I don't believe JP ever had an interest in being a father - a real father who puts the needs of his kids first - he saw them as objects to get his sexual kicks. Susan was an object to do other things - get him societal cover and legitimacy, get him kids, get him money. Abusers of this kind actually enjoy watching how much people work to try to struggle with them, because they know that they are poisoning them, or going to leave them, or going to use them for an online business, or whatever their plans are.

Sadly, that is one reason it is so hard to help someone in a relationship like this because if they are strong and capable, they work with it, find ways around it, think they can "manage" the situation.....and all the while, they are simply prey that the sadist is toying with.

But how many of us would support someone leaving a relationship because the husband keeps changing the PIN or won't let them have the car? We are always judging about whether someone should or should not leave. We don't see and support people in this kind of systemic, emotional abuse until it's too late. We need to find ways to help people see the warning signs of behavior right in the dating relationship so they never marry someone with the behavior JP exhibited as a teen. JMO

Wonderful, Dovebar. Now we are getting somewhere.

 

[OEJ]

BBM

If Susan did this, I wonder if she knew she was moving into a high risk period?

Most domestic violence advocates and experts like Gavin de Becker say that if a person is in an abusive relationship, don't do anything the abuser can detect until the victim is in a place of safety.

Yes, if possible, prepare for leaving by siphoning off some money but don't do it in any way the abuser can detect. Rather than taking a whole paycheck and depositing it to another account, siphon off $5 every time the victim goes to the grocery store, so that the abuser has no clue or warning that the victim may be thinking of leaving.

Yes, it's sneaking around and in a *normal* relationship would be deeply dishonest. But in an abusive relationship, it's a matter of life and death to keep such preparations secret.

You're absolutely right. I'm so happy to see so many insightful posts!!

 

[sayd]

None of my friends would of put up with JP's controlling crap. I wonder if she was trying to be a Biblical submissive wife?? where he was head of the house? Susan seemed to be a rather weak woman, but I really hate to think of her that way. It might be that her parents and her family have showed her to be a very weak woman so they could show the world how JP was so controlling over her, but in a way it shows how weak Susan was.

Well, now that I'm 56 years old, I wouldn't put up with it for a second. But when I was just out of high school, I dated a very abusive person for far longer than I should have. I just kept trying to make it work. Looking back I can't even believe I did it. He told me when I finally did leave that he would find me and throw acid on my face. I surrounded myself with friends and family for a long time after that. I was lucky. I was also lucky we didn't have a baby together.

So, all that I am trying to say is that sometimes very smart, strong women can make very dumb mistakes. Especially when they are young. Cut her some slack. She wasn't the abuser. Geez.

 

[dovebar]

Well, now that I'm 56 years old, I wouldn't put up with it for a second. But when I was just out of high school, I dated a very abusive person for far longer than I should have. I just kept trying to make it work. Looking back I can't even believe I did it. He told me when I finally did leave that he would find me and throw acid on my face. I surrounded myself with friends and family for a long time after that. I was lucky. I was also lucky we didn't have a baby together.

So, all that I am trying to say is that sometimes very smart, strong women can make very dumb mistakes. Especially when they are young.

Soooooooooooo true. Youth plus short courtship plus con man plus a worldwide culture that trains women not to be too "dominant" or trust themselves too much, to work work work to be what men "want," and again, youth, and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[Nova]

Wonderful, Dovebar. Now we are getting somewhere.

Dovebar's post is indeed excellent, as are several others on the subject.

Yes, we want to encourage abused people to escape their abusers.

On the other hand, we need to also remember there are numerous reasons why it is difficult to do so: psychological, social, financial and legal, and especially if there are children involved.

 

[Etilema]

May have been a first that we know of. Why was there a family story about how to bury a bear?

Also, what happened to SP's mother's second husband, who we are told died fairly soon after she remarried? Does anyone know?

Where do we learn about SP's mother, other than the story on SP's website about him being kidnapped away from her? I had no idea we knew WHAT happened to her after that.

 

[Dr. Know?]

I understand how Susan could have tried to make her marriage work but was also careful. Just not careful enough maybe that day. Josh knew she was going to leave him with the boys. jmo

It disturbs me that Charlie said he didn't have a brother. Just him and his dad & all the hate he had for his mom's family & religions. It disturbs me the boys slept naked & lived with an uncle who sometimes walked around naked and apparenty opened a door naked or in front of a case worker or LE. I think Josh was grooming Charlie or if not already tried something as sick as that is to write. He was mentally trying to seperate the boys with his control. Granted we all got mad at our siblings but I never just made them not exist. Cut them off as though they weren't part of the family, etc.. How sick is that? If all that's been said about SP is true about his hate for the religion, maybe he believed more like Warren Jeffs? That's scary. It just reeks of incest sadly. jmo

 

[hollyblue]

Where do we learn about SP's mother, other than the story on SP's website about him being kidnapped away from her? I had no idea we knew WHAT happened to her after that.

The thread discussing SP's mother was taken away for review, but if you do a search for Ouita on Susan's forum, you'll find some posts. She remarried and her new husband died a few months later, then she remarried again and she is buried with that husband.

 

[dovebar]

Dovebar's post is indeed excellent, as are several others on the subject.

Yes, we want to encourage abused people to escape their abusers.

On the other hand, we need to also remember there are numerous reasons why it is difficult to do so: psychological, social, financial and legal, and especially if there are children involved.

That's why I think it's important that we begin to study and teach young people about the signs of unhealthy people and unhealthy relationships - and why to avoid them. We spend a lot of time doing things that may be counterproductive, like talking about how people are innocent until proven guilty or deserve second chances. That may be true in lots of cases, but it doesn't mean you need to marry someone who has killed pets for no reason. One of the things Gavin de Becker talks about is heeding the tiny warning signs, because we often don't get someone calling a radio station and saying, "I'm going to murder my wife and boys."

Instead, you have someone making fun of things that are important to you, or disparaging your views, or making light of the fact that his father has bad boundaries around you when you visit, or that he can't hold a job, or that his mother said in divorce papers that she as afraid of him. Somehow we override that and dismiss those smaller things and we teach young girls (mostly, but also boys) to overlook any intuition about things like that while dating. I did.

I include myself in this because there were several relationships where I overrode what I knew or suspected or saw because it didn't seem "nice" to be bothered by them. Nice is more important to use in a girl than safe! Another time a friend told me he'd been approached by a pedophile and I really didn't know what to make of it or feel able to be supportive (as a teenager) because the man was highly respected. I couldn't put the two together. I was young and it wouldn't have been nice to suspect him of that.

Do we fear that talking to our teenagers about true psychopathology will scare them too much, or that we are overreacting?

 

[dovebar]

The thread discussing SP's mother was taken away for review, but if you do a search for Ouita on Susan's forum, you'll find some posts. She remarried and her new husband died a few months later, then she remarried again and she is buried with that husband.

Do you have a link about this, or do you remember where it came from? I knew SP's mother remarried a third time but thought she divorced him (Mr. Ward) and that her whereabouts - living or dead - are currently unknown.

Ouita herself is buried with her last husband, Vacil Williams, at least in the same cemetery.

 

[gwenabob]

That's why I think it's important that we begin to study and teach young people about the signs of unhealthy people and unhealthy relationships - and why to avoid them. We spend a lot of time doing things that may be counterproductive, like talking about how people are innocent until proven guilty or deserve second chances. That may be true in lots of cases, but it doesn't mean you need to marry someone who has killed pets for no reason. One of the things Gavin de Becker talks about is heeding the tiny warning signs, because we often don't get someone calling a radio station and saying, "I'm going to murder my wife and boys."

Instead, you have someone making fun of things that are important to you, or disparaging your views, or making light of the fact that his father has bad boundaries around you when you visit, or that he can't hold a job, or that his mother said in divorce papers that she as afraid of him. Somehow we override that and dismiss those smaller things and we teach young girls (mostly, but also boys) to overlook any intuition about things like that while dating. I did.

I include myself in this because there were several relationships where I overrode what I knew or suspected or saw because it didn't seem "nice" to be bothered by them. Nice is more important to use in a girl than safe! Another time a friend told me he'd been approached by a pedophile and I really didn't know what to make of it or feel able to be supportive (as a teenager) because the man was highly respected. I couldn't put the two together. I was young and it wouldn't have been nice to suspect him of that.

Do we fear that talking to our teenagers about true psychopathology will scare them too much, or that we are overreacting?

Excellent post! I try to teach my daughters to watch for those danger signs and never let a man manipulate them by calling them a bi*** or "stuck up" or anything like that. I tell my girls they don't have to do anything they don't want to do and no man has the right to make them. And if a man keeps saying things like "I won't hurt you, I *promise*!", you should turn tail and run the other way as fast as you can. I wish they would spend more time on that theme in television, movies, school, etc.

 

[OEJ]

Dovebar's post is indeed excellent, as are several others on the subject.

Yes, we want to encourage abused people to escape their abusers.

On the other hand, we need to also remember there are numerous reasons why it is difficult to do so: psychological, social, financial and legal, and especially if there are children involved.

I think we can encourage people to leave an abuser and understand it is difficult to do it.