New Details of Josh's Brainwashing Techniques

[dovebar]

To me, the trouble with any idealogy is that a sick person will find in it something to use to do what they want. So my experience with Mormonism includes elements of both of what others here have posted.

As I reflect on it, controlling people found doctrines they could use to control while strong, confident Mormon men and women support each other admirably. I will say that I found quite a bit of pressure culturally for people to work at marriages and not divorce, beyond what I found wise in many instances. But I believe this is not particular to Mormonism, but is common in most churches, certainly in Catholicism and more fundamentalist Protestant denominations.

It's like the pendulum swing we were talking about with "family reunification." At one time, too many children may have been removed because their parents were poor or their Native American roots weren't respected. But reunification with a father who is bizarre in behavior AND a murder suspect is a pendulum swing too far in the other direction.

I think there is a lot of cultural pressure in U.S. society for women to be more submissive - studies show this is true in schools, where boys are allowed to be active and talky in classrooms far more than girls, and on and on. Connect this to virtually any religion, all of which have roots - as does all of society - to ancient cultures where women couldn't own property or participate fully in legal/civic life. Connect it especially to most religion's views of divorce. I think it all comes together in a sort of hothouse of pressure that may also include family pressures, like eagerness to win love or to please. Add in personality; if Susan was a high achiever and a helper, she would have worked like crazy to "achieve" a healthy marriage and to help JP, who clearly came from a bad situation. I have done that myself, and am just lucky that I got out in time, did not have kids with the person, and the person was not as extreme a danger (that I know of) to me as JP. Basically, when I look at Susan's story, I think, there but for the grace of God go I. I suppose that is one major reason I am still hoping that she will be found.

 

[Kimster]

Let's not continue the personal experiences with Mormonism unless you can tie it in with Josh's behavior somehow. For example, that he used part of the Mormon religion to brainwash and why.

For example, some cult leaders in the past (like Jim Jones) have told their followers they were the Messiah and therefore "brainwashed" them to commit suicide. Keep it tied in with this case and the topic of this thread. :tyou:

 

[Sulamith]

Let's not continue the personal experiences with Mormonism unless you can tie it in with Josh's behavior someone. For example, that he used part of the Mormon religion to brainwash and why.

For example, some cult leaders in the past (like Jim Jones) have told their followers they were the Messiah and therefore "brainwashed" them to commit suicide. Keep it tied in with this case and the topic of this thread. :tyou:

With all due respect, Kimster, I do think personal experiences with the LDS church can, maybe, give an insight into why Susan stayed with JP long after she should have and why JP was a control freak (LDS priesthood power?). All I can give is my personal experience with the patriarchial LDS church. Your blog, your rules..I just wanted to speak my mind here. I will continue reading and I hope Susan's threads still receive info. Thank You.

 

[Montjoy]

For example, some cult leaders in the past (like Jim Jones) have told their followers they were the Messiah and therefore "brainwashed" them to commit suicide.

Sure, but the followers of Jim Jones (or pretty much any cult leader) were hardly a representative sample of the American public. Cults (and I am not calling the LDS church a cult here) prey upon people with certain sensibilities, dispositions, vulnerabilities. I would submit that being raised in a highly patriarchal tradition would make one more susceptible to some things one's husband (or some male authority figure) might promote. It's not like Jim Jones was persuasive to the public at large -- he had his flock, his congregation. The LDS church is a highly patriarchal institution -- that has deep consequences for the ways that both its male and female members think about themselves and each other.

(That being said, I don't think the term 'brainwashing' illuminates anything.)

 

[couggal]

I am by no stretch of the imagination an expert on the LDS faith, but half of my husbands family is LDS including his parents. His brother is currently engaged which lead to a conversation about the church's view on engagements. The LDS church, according to my inlaws does not encourage long engagements. My BIL who is getting married at the end of this month met his fiancé right after Christmas. I have to imagine there is a lot about eachother they do not know. When my in-laws spoke of the church promoting short engagements, my mind immediately went to Susan. Does anyone know how long they dated and were engaged?

 

[Kimster]

Thanks for your responses. It only furthers the reasons that WS doesn't like discussing religion. :sigh: Even in my post above it caused concern. I was trying to use the example of some "way out" religion so I wouldn't step on anyone's personal spiritual beliefs and that didn't even work out well.

Our members have a wide array of spiritual beliefs on Websleuths. It makes it very difficult at times.

The bottom line is, don't let the thread go from "brainwashing" to a religious debate. It wasn't there yet, but time and time again I've seen threads take off that way when discussing religious practices. If you keep it focused on what you know and tie it in with Josh's brainwashing techniques, using your own experiences is fine.

Note: this post is not addressing the post above, which is just fine.

 

[wenwe4]

I truly appreciate the opportunity to discuss my experiences and the thoughtful comments that others made about their experiences. Furthermore, I really appreciate that everyone here was respectful and I do realize we are walking a very thin line here Kimster. Thank you all for your responses . . . and I do agree - this type of thing happens in every religion (not just the LDS). Cultural factors play a huge role, (I was raised in south eastern Idaho - very close to Utah where the LDS population was even higher than in Salt Lake City per capita.)

What we do know is that the Powell family is also highly Patriarchial (Men are in charge) and no matter what religious affiliation they claim to have - JP & SP have a very twisted version of "how to play nice with others".

To take things back to topic . . . . we know the Powell children were taught: hate towards others, nudity/sexuality was encouraged (in whatever twisted sense they wanted) and lying to others is the way to survive in this world.

Women were not highly regarded as "partners" in decision making, valuable, or equal in any way in the Powell family (given the remarks made by SP & JP). Susan was made to be a second class citizen in this family - (ie: forced to ride a bicycle to work, not given enough grocery money to provide for the family, etc).

 

[Salem]

Let's not continue the personal experiences with Mormonism unless you can tie it in with Josh's behavior somehow. For example, that he used part of the Mormon religion to brainwash and why.

For example, some cult leaders in the past (like Jim Jones) have told their followers they were the Messiah and therefore "brainwashed" them to commit suicide. Keep it tied in with this case and the topic of this thread. :tyou:

Thank you Kimster!

 

[wenwe4]

I just re-watched video 2 weeks after Susan went missing. Susan's friend stated if Josh were to tell her he was going to take the boys camping in the middle of winter on a school night, Susan would have said "No Way!" She did explain that she and her husband were good friends with Josh and Susan both in Washington and Utah. There was a considerable difference in Susan's demeanor over the years and this friend felt Susan worked too hard on working on the marriage.

When in terms of working on the "marriage" and making decisions together, was this honored by Josh in the latter part of their 8 years together? Did Susan feel she had no way to refuse Josh, even when child safety and well-being is paramount? Was she deferring to her husband in the end (despite her initial objections) in every scenario?

Camping at midnight in the middle of winter was not a decision made in the "best interest of children". Josh said his reason to do take the children out in freezing temps in the dark was because it was "fun". Fun for Who? He went onto say anyone that knows him would say he didn't have a good concept of time. (What does that mean? How is that good for the children?)

Every decision Josh made was for his own deviant gain (IMO).

 

[dovebar]

I am by no stretch of the imagination an expert on the LDS faith, but half of my husbands family is LDS including his parents. His brother is currently engaged which lead to a conversation about the church's view on engagements. The LDS church, according to my inlaws does not encourage long engagements. My BIL who is getting married at the end of this month met his fiancé right after Christmas. I have to imagine there is a lot about eachother they do not know. When my in-laws spoke of the church promoting short engagements, my mind immediately went to Susan. Does anyone know how long they dated and were engaged?

In my experience, long engagements are discouraged, perhaps by default. When Mormons get engaged, they tend to set a date and do it. Keep in mind that temple-going Mormons are not sleeping together, so once they decide they want to be together, there is some interest in going ahead with the marriage. I have heard church officials encourage this so that kids do not get carried away and commit sexual sins. Mormons are encouraged to pray about their decision, so if they feel they have received heavenly confirmation of their decision, why wait? Also, they are encouraged not to put off having families for things that non-Mormons often use to postpone marriage - finishing school, buying a house. To my eye, Susan and JP's meeting and marriage were quite typical.

Another thing is that Susan was not 18. At that age, I had more than one engaged friend, and at 21, about 80% of my friends were engaged or married. At her age, she might have been feeling quite concerned about whether she would meet someone. Because Mormon kids marry young, if you do not, you quickly find yourself with a more limited dating pool and it can become quite time-consuming and taxing and discouraging trying to meet someone. Basically, she was dating in a worse pool and JP was dating in a better one than he deserved.

Anyone can be on "good behavior" for a few months. In six months, you may never have gone through a Christmas or Thanksgiving with intense family elements, a summer apart, the stresses of a school year, or a long vacation together. If they have at least traveled together, whether they are sleeping together or not, preferably in a foreign country, they can get a good snapshot of what they life will be like in frustration, anger, delay, confusion, fatigue, fun, and around-the-clock being together. It would help to know how they react in the morning short of sleep. Or to have met their fiancee's families. I have known more than one couple who did not meet the families until directly before or at the wedding. Bad idea.

I doubt Susan had that kind of look at JP and his family before she walked down the aisle.

 

[Dal Gal]

I truly appreciate the opportunity to discuss my experiences and the thoughtful comments that others made about their experiences. Furthermore, I really appreciate that everyone here was respectful and I do realize we are walking a very thin line here Kimster. Thank you all for your responses . . . and I do agree - this type of thing happens in every religion (not just the LDS). Cultural factors play a huge role, (I was raised in south eastern Idaho - very close to Utah where the LDS population was even higher than in Salt Lake City per capita.)

What we do know is that the Powell family is also highly Patriarchial (Men are in charge) and no matter what religious affiliation they claim to have - JP & SP have a very twisted version of "how to play nice with others".

To take things back to topic . . . . we know the Powell children were taught: hate towards others, nudity/sexuality was encouraged (in whatever twisted sense they wanted) and lying to others is the way to survive in this world.

Women were not highly regarded as "partners" in decision making, valuable, or equal in any way in the Powell family (given the remarks made by SP & JP). Susan was made to be a second class citizen in this family - (ie: forced to ride a bicycle to work, not given enough grocery money to provide for the family, etc).

BBM. Wenwe, I am curious about the cultural differences that you mention as they might relate to family dynamics of LDS in Idaho or Utah, versus say Cali or WA, or anywhere else where the per capita population is lower. Do you, or anyone else, have specific observations of a difference between the regions?

Your personal tragic experiences in SE Idaho caught my interest, since SP's father and grandparents (yes, those) are from Fremont and Teton Counties in SE Idaho, as was every generation of Powell since their LDS conversion back in England.

ETA: Feel free to PM me. I realize that the religious aspect PLUS the genealogy aspects are thin ice on public forum, but both are at the heart of this.

 

[hollyblue]

JMO, I think it was mainly JP and SP's control issues. Granted they all had the same religion and Susan may have fallen under the description of bowing to JP in the beginning...( with thinking JP was a good leader, making good decisions, etc) and the trouble began when she realized he wasn't and objected to many of his quirky ideas because they weren't fruitful....either in business or to the family. It happens in other religions as well, but basically it's the controlling male who takes advantage of a certain passage in the scriptures. In my experience, it's not the only passage they try to twist to their own demands. Susan was trying to make him see this and he wanted no part of it....going thru their religion was double trouble because of SP's influence. ?I'm sure she may have tried to talk to him just with common sense, but SP would have kept jabbing the religion as the basis behind it. IMO, JMO, etc.

 

[BritsKate]

I believe JP simply utilized religion as a tool against Susan. Any ideology is malleable and can be turned and twisted into a weapon.

The more important religion is to the victim of emotional abuse the more dominant role it plays in the abuse itself.

Ironically my ex-SIL was also in an abusive marriage for many years. Her ex would quote scripture, turned and twisted, to further victimize, manipulate, control and dominate. Over time he would seek assistance from the church elders over his wife's behavior, attend marital bible study alone (never informing her he was attending) and continue to paint her in the congregation's eyes as troubled, lazy, mentally unstable, etc. He would seek sympathy that his wife was unwilling/unable to follow the principles of the church. Eventually he isolated her from the church entirely because she was so humiliated and embarrassed over the lies he had spewed all while appearing the 'perfect' husband and father unfortunately married to an unstable troubled soul.

JP would have been an abuser no matter what religion, if any, he and Susan followed. Had she had no religion at all he would have simply manipulated what did matter most to her.

Incidentally abusive relationships also move very, very quickly. It is common that an abuser tries to solidify the relationship as soon as possible through pregnancy, marriage, engagement, co-habitation, etc. It secures their control.

 

[Dr. Know?]

More Josh Powell documents to be released today

SALT LAKE CITY — About 1,700 more pages of documents relating to Josh Powell and his two sons are expected to be released today by the Washington Department of Social and Health Services

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=96...-documents-to-be-released-today&s_cid=queue-1

 

[Dal Gal]

I'm still waiting to see the last 1000 pages that were released! I'm sure if KSL needs help digitizing those, some of us would be happy to assist!

 

[Dr. Know?]

Little bits of info is trickling out. Here's Ben Winslow's tweets. Also KSL is busy reading away, Desertnews had a small bit about Josh.

BenWinslow Ben Winslow
CPS noted Susan's parents would likely oppose reunification between #JoshPowell and kids because of her disappearance. Um, yeah? #findsusan

BenWinslow Ben Winslow
#JoshPowell wrote letters daily to his sons. #findsusan http://twitpic.com/8r4cw1

BenWinslow Ben Winslow
A letter from #JoshPowell to his son. #findsusan http://twitpic.com/8r4bj2

eta, look at the stack Ben's going through.

http://twitpic.com/8r4kr0

 

[Dr. Know?]

BenWinslow Ben Winslow
Among the docs released in the #JoshPowell case: the boys' school reports, medical exams, Steven Powell's divorce filings. #findsusan

 

[DLT88]

Incidentally abusive relationships also move very, very quickly. It is common that an abuser tries to solidify the relationship as soon as possible through pregnancy, marriage, engagement, co-habitation, etc. It secures their control.

I've noticed this to be true, too. Whenever I have heard of a male pushing for a woman/girl to marry him quickily, it has turned out to be a very abusive marriage. Did we ever find out how long Susan was engaged to JP before they married? I also wonder if SP pushed his wife to marry him very soon into the relationship, too.

 

[Dr. Know?]

New documents released from Powell custody case

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53633137-78/powell-custody-documents-case.html.csp

 

[DLT88]

Little bits of info is trickling out. Here's Ben Winslow's tweets. Also KSL is busy reading away, Desertnews had a small bit about Josh.

BenWinslow Ben Winslow
CPS noted Susan's parents would likely oppose reunification between #JoshPowell and kids because of her disappearance. Um, yeah? #findsusan

BenWinslow Ben Winslow
#JoshPowell wrote letters daily to his sons. #findsusan http://twitpic.com/8r4cw1

BenWinslow Ben Winslow
A letter from #JoshPowell to his son. #findsusan http://twitpic.com/8r4bj2

eta, look at the stack Ben's going through.

http://twitpic.com/8r4kr0

A handwriting analysis' (sp?) paradise! I remember a little from some classes years ago. Notice Josh puts an abnormal distance between his words and lines. The distance between lines is how they feel distanced from normal society if I remember correctly.

Also sudden spaces before certain words usually means lying but he spaces between all words so i don't know....different ways of writing "y" in the lower zone could mean they are unsure about their sexuality.

Anyway, that aside, I find his message to Charlie very pushy telling him to be sure and write everyday and to help Braden do the same thing. Everyday for a kid is way too much to ask. He just wanted to stay in control and have their mind and time every day. There is also nothing in there about Charlie specifically as a boy with interests. He asks no questions about that. It's all about Josh and how much he needs them.