New Tracey Documentary

[Maikai]

Sounds like this could be the guy who was tagged when working for the Ramseys?

Any other bombshells? The match to the mold, wolfdog hairs, rare(?) hi-tec boots, and the accomplice working in the house is all news to me. So is the Barbie Doll interest----remember they found a barbie doll on the Ramsey's front lawn. Kenady first gave the boots to Ramsey investigators---they could have gotten trace evidence from them. Perhaps ol' Hunter's bluff really worked afterall as far as closing in on the perp......if it was these two--they got the missing guy's number.....at least they know a name.

I wonder if either of them smoked--there's the cigarette butts and leaves that were gathered up during the search of the outside of the Ramsey house.

 

[Shylock]

Doberson explained that statement....at the time he didn't have a specific stun gun to use in experiments.

Total Bull Chit, Maikai. The fool said you can't tell by photographs--it doesn't matter if the jerk had a stun gun down his pants at the time, you can't tell by photographs. READ the article I quoted you.

Doberson is a fool who impeached his own opinion with his big yap-trap. Maybe next time he'll know better to keep his big mouth shut so later on he doesn't make himself look like an idiot.

 

[Jayelles]

Until we get a transcript of the documentary, it's down to accounts from a handful of us that saw the documentary and frustratingly, I have a tight schedule for the rest of the day. HoraceMills has posted a more wordy synopsis of the documentary than I did, but he's got a couple of things wrong and he's missed a few key points as well.

For the moment - a couple of points.

They showed a PHOTO of the bootprint from the basement and a PHOTO of the Hi-Tec logo from the bottom of one of the boots and said (paraphrased) "It's a match - you can clearly see the imprint of the logo in the mould". I think they would have to go a bit further in order to show that it was that particular pair of boots which made the print - a much harder task which would involve looking for other distinctive marks in the imprint and correspinding marks on the boot. The also pointed to a photo of Helgoth's boots and said that little brown marks were the same colour as the mould in the Ramsey basement - ergo it WAS the mould. I think they would need more than that too. There also would appear to be a chain of custody issue with these boots.


Kenady based his supicion of Helgoth on the latter talking about getting $50,000 and then seeming depressed because the deal fell through. $50,000 - not $118,000 or even $59,000.

The characters who were interviewed about Helgoth and Mr X were pretty dodgy, long hair, long beards, dirty looking and speaking with slurred speech. They seemed pretty doped up. Not saying their word was any less than yours or mine, but it's not a stretch to suppose that if Helgoth and X were running with druggies, then they might be druggies too. Druggies need to fund their habit, so it doesn't make a lot of sense that they would burgle houses and not take anything.

Fibres - the programme made a big thing about Helgoth dressing as a ninja. The 14 year old's attacker was dressed as a ninja - all in black. No mention of red or tan.

The animal hairs I AM interested in. I have said all along that I felt these could be significant. They said that there were TWO different coloured animal hairs found on JonBenet's body and that they were the same colour as Mr X's wolf dogs. I think that is more significant that the Hi-Tec boot stuff which I feel is flimsy evidence.

What I didn't like about the documentary was the way it clearly attempted to demonise the police. There was no need for that and it's just as bad as slowing down the pageant video of JonBenet to make it look more seductive. I think there was a deliberate attempt to make them look even more foolish by the choice of video footage and corresponding voiceover. This of course is more of an artistic criticism and has little to do with anything else - apart from displaying bias on the part of the producers and showing them to be every bit as bad as the American press that Tracey has been so critical of.

I've had a look through today's papers and can't see anything of a review. My usual paper has chosen to review the programme which showed on the other side.

I have a lengthy list of things to do today and I'm going to batter through them as quick as I can because I'd like to try and make screen captures of some of the evidence they showed. I've never tried to do this directly from a VCR before so it might not work as I think it should. If it doesn't, I'll do what I did with Tracey II and take photos of the TV screen - not as desirable, but better than nothing.

 

[VespaElf]

:laugh:John and Patsy Ramsay, now impoverished by legal costs.......................






Cherokee summed this up beautifully but I still have to point it out because its the funniest thing Ive read in weeks!!!!!!!

 

[Cherokee]

They showed a PHOTO of the bootprint from the basement and a PHOTO of the Hi-Tec logo from the bottom of one of the boots and said (paraphrased) "It's a match - you can clearly see the imprint of the logo in the mould". I think they would have to go a bit further in order to show that it was that particular pair of boots which made the print - a much harder task which would involve looking for other distinctive marks in the imprint and correspinding marks on the boot. The also pointed to a photo of Helgoth's boots and said that little brown marks were the same colour as the mould in the Ramsey basement - ergo it WAS the mould. I think they would need more than that too. There also would appear to be a chain of custody issue with these boots.

Thanks, Jay, for pointing out you can't tell WHAT is shown on the bottom of Helgoth's boot FROM A PHOTO, and you sure can't tell IT'S A MATCH.

First of all, we don't KNOW it mold in the Ramsey basement. As WHY_NUT has pointed out, it could be saponification.

Secondly, whatever might be shown on Helgoth's boots CANNOT BE MATCHED FROM A PHOTO. There must be lab analysis for conclusive proof. The brown marks could be dog doo, for all we know.

The animal hairs I AM interested in. I have said all along that I felt these could be significant. They said that there were TWO different coloured animal hairs found on JonBenet's body and that they were the same colour as Mr X's wolf dogs. I think that is more significant that the Hi-Tec boot stuff which I feel is flimsy evidence.

I agree the animal hairs found on JBR are significant.

However, once again, a conclusive match cannot be made without lab analysis. To say the hairs found on JBR were the same COLOR as hairs on some dogs, and therefore, they match is ludicrous. Did they have photos of these dogs? Who gave them the information about the dogs? Can they prove the dogs existed? Can they prove Mr. X even had dogs? All of this is just hearsay.

You know, I have a friend who has a red and black sweater that LOOKS like the same colors of the sweater Patsy wore at Christmas. I could take a photo, and tell you they WERE the exact same colors and a match. I could also tell you this friend had two dogs, and their hair matched the hairs found on JBR. By the way, this friend lives in Boulder, not too far from the Ramseys.

I could TELL you all this, but does it mean anything? No. Because I don't have forensic proof, and half of it is only hearsay. I haven't proven anything with the sweater photo, and you have to take my word that the dogs even exist, or that the friend even HAS dogs, or lives in Boulder.

Thanks, Jay, for taking the time to let us know what was in the Tracey propaganda program. (To call it a documentary would be an insult to real documentaries.) It sounds like a mish-mash of incomplete investigation and wholesale grasping at straws.

It's obvious, by omission, they could not tie Helgoth, or the mysterious Mr. X, to the ransom note ... the one piece of evidence we do have that connects to JonBenet's death.

I'll tell you why that is. It's because Patsy wrote the ransom note. That one fact alone negates the entire Tracey bag of tricks. They can pull Mr. Xs out of their collective hat until the cows come home, but it doesn't change that one fact.

Patsy wrote the ransom note. Patsy knows what happened. And so does John. Nothing else explains their behavior. Nothing else explains their lack of cooperation, their evasiveness and their lies. They covered up what happened to JBR to protect a Ramsey ... not a Helgoth, not a mysterious Mr. X.

IMO

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Tell me the dog hairs are scientifically matched, tell me the boot print was scientifically matched, tell me the DNA scientifically matched.
Then I may listen

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Experts determined that JonBenet had been sexually abused PRIOR to Dec. 26th and that her vaginal opening was 6 TIMES that of a normal child her age.

 

[Jayelles]

Chero - regarding colours on photos.

My hair is fair - I'd be described as a dishwater blonde. Yet in some photos, my hair looks quite dark. Lab analysis is essential. They can do colour analyses which involve the use of lights and then taking measurements. I'm pretty certain they'd also be able to do mtDNA analysis of the hairs.

Of course, it all hinges on finding this bloke and testing his DNA. I don't know why they aren't doing a "Wanted" campaign for him. If he has nothing to hide, maybe he will come forward and be tested.

 

[BlueCrab]

Experts determined that JonBenet had been sexually abused PRIOR to Dec. 26th and that her vaginal opening was 6 TIMES that of a normal child her age.

Ned,

The only credible information that I know of in regard to the size of JonBenet's vaginal opening was that the 1x1 cm hymenal orifice opening was about twice the size that it should have been. Can you please provide a source that states "the vaginal opening was 6 times that of a normal child her age"? Thanks.

JMO

 

[Jayelles]

Ned,

The only credible information that I know of in regard to the size of JonBenet's vaginal opening was that the 1x1 cm hymenal orifice opening was about twice the size that it should have been. Can you please provide a source that states "the vaginal opening was 6 times that of a normal child her age"? Thanks.

JMO

That's big! I think it's probably an error!

 

[Jayelles]

Any other bombshells? The match to the mold, wolfdog hairs, rare(?) hi-tec boots, and the accomplice working in the house is all news to me. So is the Barbie Doll interest----remember they found a barbie doll on the Ramsey's front lawn. Kenady first gave the boots to Ramsey investigators---they could have gotten trace evidence from them. Perhaps ol' Hunter's bluff really worked afterall as far as closing in on the perp......if it was these two--they got the missing guy's number.....at least they know a name.

I wonder if either of them smoked--there's the cigarette butts and leaves that were gathered up during the search of the outside of the Ramsey house.

I found what I was looking for. I didn't want to commit to this till I'd checked it.

Helgoth died in February 1997
The barbies on the lawn incidents occurred in 1998 - obviously not Helgoth.

 

[Jayelles]

The Tracey documentary wasn't really "new evidence". This preceeded it by 4 years! It also confirms that Smit HAS discussed the Helgoth theory with others - albeit several yearas ago.

Jeff Shapiro:-

Boots

As I wrestled with my personal investigation of Wolf, I heard about "Boots." Once upon a time, Boots lived with a local woman and her 4-year-old blonde daughter, until the two had an explosive argument that led to their break-up. The woman accused the man of masturbating under his blanket while her daughter was sitting on his bed. Boots lived in a small shack at a local junkyard on Valmont Road, where he also worked.

On Feb. 13, 1997, DA Hunter had a press conference in order to send a message to JonBenet's unknown killer: "You will pay for what you have done, and we have no doubt this will happen." The next day, Valentine's Day, Boots was found dead in his apartment. Supposedly, he had killed himself with a shotgun. Immediately, he became another "possible suspect"-albeit a dead one-in the Ramsey murder.

But the theory that JonBenet's killer got spooked and took his life had a gaping hole in it: The suicide began to look like a murder. Boots was right-handed and the bullet's trajectory went from left to right. In addition, someone had placed a pillow in front of his chest before firing the gun, something professional killers do to muffle the noise of a gunshot. In addition, Boots was a former military sharpshooter and parachutist who had been trained to use an M16 Rifle and hand grenades. I wondered: If Boots was a sharpshooter, why the odd trajectory?

When police took crime scene photos at Boots' apartment, two items grabbed their attention. Not only was there a pair of Hi-Tec climbing boots by the dead man's feet, there was a stun gun beside his hand and a Taser in the distance. Supposedly, Boots also owned a baseball cap with the letters "SBTC" on it. Later, a friend of Boots found a videotape in the dead man's apartment that intrigued police. It was footage of a newscast from a couple of years before. The news story featured an unsolved case involving a kidnapped and murdered 6-year-old girl. Was the newscast a random recording left behind by someone else? Or was it a trophy of some kind?

Since the ransom note refers to at least two other kidnappers, Lou Smit believes it's possible more than one person was involved. It was strange that some of the exact items used in JonBenet's attack had been found next to his body. Had the second kidnapper killed his ex-partner hoping to get police detectives off his trail? If so, his ploy failed. Even though Smit and I found the Boots' story compelling, Boulder police weren't biting-at least not hard.

http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/122001/coverstory.html

 

[why_nutt]

In addition, someone had placed a pillow in front of his chest before firing the gun, something professional killers do to muffle the noise of a gunshot.

I see. Nobody but professional killers put a pillow in front of a chest before firing. That would be news to the family of Herve Villechaize, the little man from the TV show Fantasy Island ("Da plane! Da plane!"), who, in 1993, put a pillow in front of his chest before shooting himself.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

The vaginal comment has been discussed many times, it was noted in Thomas' book. I think it came from Cyril Wecht, but I am not certain. Britt where are you? Britt keeps everything

 

[Jayelles]

I see. Nobody but professional killers put a pillow in front of a chest before firing. That would be news to the family of Herve Villechaize, the little man from the TV show Fantasy Island ("Da plane! Da plane!"), who, in 1993, put a pillow in front of his chest before shooting himself.

On the Doc, Helgoth's pal Kenady made a great deal of the fact that Helgoth was always pointing guns at people's heads or firing shots close to people. Kenady said that if Helgoth was going to shoot himself, he wouldn't have muffled the shot - why should he care if the shot disturbed the neighbours?

There was also the point that Helgoth's entry wound was on his left side just about the bottom of his ribs and it travelled across inside his chest from bottom left to top right. They reckoned that was a difficult angle for a right handed person to achieve - particularly with a pillow in between him and the gun too. I've never fired a gun, but I'm trying to imagine that. Someone (probably Agustin I think since he did most of the talking) said that suicides would normally just put a gun to their heads - not their sides. Now that I think about it, the gun was also lying at Helgoths right side, not his left, so he would have had to shoot himself with his non-dominant hand, then either throw the gun across his body or pass it from one hand to the other before dying.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds." (end quotes

Ned: Guess it may have been exaggerated over the years. This is the quote I recall however

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9337/cord.html

 

[why_nutt]

On the Doc, Helgoth's pal Kenady made a great deal of the fact that Helgoth was always pointing guns at people's heads or firing shots close to people. Kenady said that if Helgoth was going to shoot himself, he wouldn't have muffled the shot - why should he care if the shot disturbed the neighbours?

There was also the point that Helgoth's entry wound was on his left side just about the bottom of his ribs and it travelled across inside his chest from bottom left to top right. They reckoned that was a difficult angle for a right handed person to achieve - particularly with a pillow in between him and the gun too. I've never fired a gun, but I'm trying to imagine that. Someone (probably Agustin I think since he did most of the talking) said that suicides would normally just put a gun to their heads - not their sides. Now that I think about it, the gun was also lying at Helgoths right side, not his left, so he would have had to shoot himself with his non-dominant hand, then either throw the gun across his body or pass it from one hand to the other before dying.

When considering a chest shot, always keep this in mind: A method of shooting the gun in that case involves using one's thumb on the trigger, not the index finger. People do not automatically consider that option, but it has been used. Imagine holding a gun pointed towards you in your left hand. Your four fingers wrap around the butt of the gun, your thumb is on the trigger. You would push with your thumb, while using your right hand (which is dominant) to carefully aim the barrel of the gun where you want it to go, or to hold in place the pillow you want to fire through. It is not inconceivable that Helgoth fired with his left thumb, the gun recoiled, his hand bounced off the bed, and as it bounced upwards, the gun was thrown across his body to his right side.

Edited to add:

The case is not being made very well for Helgoth as JonBenet's murderer. Where does Kenady or anyone else say that Helgoth was overly fond of stragulation? JonBenet was not shot, yet the picture painted of Helgoth would have had him favor this method of execution. So far, nobody has even accused him of owning string, let alone cord and rope in bulk.

 

[Jayelles]

The case is not being made very well for Helgoth as JonBenet's murderer. Where does Kenady or anyone else say that Helgoth was overly fond of stragulation?

Kenady claims that Helgoth strangled the kittens that they would find in the junkyard with his bare hands. Also that he said to kenady that he wondereed what it would be like to crack a human skull.

Incidentally, when was the reward announced?

 

[Nedthan Johns]

Quotes are from Ruth: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9337/cord.html


"Navy blue fuzz balls" sounds like a towel to me. Is it possible that the same "towel" was used to wipe down her body after it was used to strangle her. Vanity Fair tells us that the red turtleneck shirt was found in the sink in JonBenet's bathroom. I have also heard that it was found in the laundry sink just outside her bedroom. I tend to think that it was found in the laundry sink. If Patsy Ramsey admits (it's reported that she admits washing the shirt) to washing it the morning of the 26th she would have had to go through JonBenet's bedroom to get into her bathroom. The laundry sink is located in the area just outside JonBenet's bedroom door.

If Patsy Ramsey did take time to wash the red turtleneck shirt that morning, why did she leave it in the sink? Why not just throw it in the dryer? What was she trying to wash away? Were there Navy blue fuzz balls on the red turtleneck? Were there Navy Blue fuzz balls in her hair or on the upper portion of her body? Was there a navy blue towel in the brown paper bag full of clothes mentioned by Detective Arndt? Patsy said the clothes belonged to a friend of JonBenet's

Ned: I had forgotten the Ramsey’s first statement that JB was wearing the RED turtleneck and then said she was in the star sequined shirt. I had forgotten about the red shirt being balled up in the sink. I had forgotten how Patsy LOVES to dress JonBenet similar to her and with this reminder, I am just wondering it JonBenet didn’t just wear that red turtleneck and black pants to the White’s house, to match her mother’s outfit, or if their wasn’t some sort of confrontation about what to wear and JonBenet won and go to wear her star sequined shirt. Doesn’t explain the blue hair ties. Doesn’t explain WHY the red turtleneck was balled up and apparently WASHED out in the bathroom sink. When was it worn? Again WHY the answers the White’s have to give are SO important to this case. I think the BPD knows the answer to this and it one of their reasons why they are so certain the Ramsey’s are involved.

 

[Jayelles]

If Patsy Ramsey did take time to wash the red turtleneck shirt that morning, why did she leave it in the sink?

Hey Ned - I guess Mrs Ned is in charge of laundry in your house?

Sometimes we "soak" items that are stained. SPray them or rub a little soap in and then soak them in water for a while (or overnight) before rubbing them or tossing them in the washing machine.