New Tracey Documentary

[Nedthan Johns]

The red turtleneck is interesting. I would like to know when it was last worn..

More from Ruth's site: REMAINDER OF EXTERNAL EXAMINATION:"The unembalmed, well developed nourished caucasian female body measures 47 inches in length and weighs an estimated 45 pounds. The scalp is covered by long blonde hair which is fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band. No scalp trauma is identified. The external auditory canals are patent and free of blood.The eyes are green and the pupils "

Ned; We were wrong, it was a BLUE hairband but it doesn't say what color the cloth hair ties were, interesting, I wonder WHY?

 

[tipper]

It seems to me that a 1cm X1cm hymenal opening could have been caused by the paintbrush or perhaps a finger. If she then immediately died wouldn't it stay that size? I've asked about this before but didn't get any definitive answers.

 

[Nedthan Johns]

I wondered that too, however it was noted that that both experts agreed there was PRIOR vaginal abuse.

 

[Jayelles]

Rewatching the documentary - One of Mr X's friends interviewed is called "Jay Johnson". There is a "James Johnson" on the Colorado sex offender's list in the "Failed to Register" section:-

http://sor.state.co.us/off2/offende...=johnson&sorZip=&Submit=Submit&sorCity=&ID=12

I've studied the photos and it could be the same guy. He is wearing a bandana in the documentary and he has a beard too (note that Jay Johnson is described as having a scar on his chin). This is the one I described as sounding like a junkie - slurred speech.

 

[tipper]

I wondered that too, however it was noted that that both experts agreed there was PRIOR vaginal abuse.

But there are also experts who have said they don't think there is evidence of prior abuse so I will withhold judgement on that until I hear from the two experts who examined her - Meyers and Sirotnak.

 

[Jayelles]

Rewatching documentary. Mr X also has drug convictions.

How likely is it that this guy broke into houses in wealthy neighbourhoods and stole nothing?

 

[Britt]

But there are also experts who have said they don't think there is evidence of prior abuse so I will withhold judgement on that until I hear from the two experts who examined her - Meyers and Sirotnak.

That's fair, Tipper. But what "experts" are you talking about?

Also in fairness, let's clarify. I'll even color-code. The only experts who don't think there was prior abuse were:

Dr. Beuf (who doesn't get a color because he doesn't count), who, as cited repeatedly, was not in a position to know and did not examine JonBenet's vagina in the last four months before her death, which of course eliminates Beuf as an expert; and

Dr. Spitz, whose opinion was confusing because he may have been referring only to the hymenal abrasion, but I'll give you Spitz.

That's a grand total of ONE expert who may think there was no prior abuse.

The rest who are cited in published case info -

Dr. Jones
Dr. Monteleone
Dr. McCann
Dr. Krugman
Dr. Wecht

- are unanimous that there was prior abuse.

That's five to one, and the one is questionable. Like I've said a zillion times, if it was five to one against prior abuse the RST would be shrieking it from the rooftops.

Man, you'd think given this information, the Ramseys would at least want to explore the subject and find out who the hell may have been molesting their child.

 

[Shylock]

Kenady said that if Helgoth was going to shoot himself, he wouldn't have muffled the shot - why should he care if the shot disturbed the neighbours?

The guy wanted to kill himself, not just shoot himself and be rescued by neighbors who came running when they heard the shot. That really is too hard to figure out...

 

[Camper]

I have not read page 11 yet, got to here and had to respond.

Jayelles, you seem to be the source here for good facts.

I have some observations, and I am trying to play catchup on the documentary.

Who is to say that JonBenet did the wadding up of the red shirt and getting it all wet etc, as a rebelling against her mother wanting her to wear it to the White's party. SO wet BEFORE the party not in the night.

I had the recollection that there was just one (1) animal hair, and us sleuthers decided that it was probably just one of the 'beaver type hairs on PR's christmas boots'.

I am wondering what difference there is in determining an animal hair from a human hair? Do mens toupees ever have animal hair fillers in them to make hair look fuller?

Do any of us have some pictures of JR's hair during that period of time?

I am also wondering, since Dr. Boofs medical records vanished if he ever penetrated the hymen area for an exam of JonBenets repeated problems, and IF IF PR was always present during the exams. I do believe that a female assistant is required to be present for internal exams of small children, I could be wrong on that point, let me know. Aside and apart from the propriety of it, the child would typically be worried/crying/etc if mom was not with her.

What did Helgoth DO for a living or didn't he, I have forgotten if I ever knew.

I was stricken tonight while reading, by the pictures on Neds link on page 10, showing a manual strangulation, then the thought of course arises that perp/PR/JR/whomever that had such a lot of time to do what they did, without being discovered 'in the act', prepared the garrotte and covered the manual strangulation up and prepared the staging/note/etc. Busy night.

Well just a quick thought, IF IF IF JonBenet ruined the red shirt BEFORE going to the party so she would not have to dress like mom, I am sure relations were not too loving before the party. Perhaps got on PR's nerves, and a bed wetting in the night, when PR had but one nerve left, hmmm.

I just hope the documentary and the continuing investigation of already dead people and their 'friends' comes up empty, then perhaps we will see justice shine for JonBenet.

I think the OJ trial taught LE a great big lesson, donut get it into the courtroom, until all the gaps are plugged up. Hunter denying access to many important details was total ignorance.

One last thought why would a wolf dogs hair fall out in winter, when their coat is the heaviest?

 

[tipper]

That's fair, Tipper. But what "experts" are you talking about?

Also in fairness, let's clarify. I'll even color-code. The only experts who don't think there was prior abuse were:

Dr. Beuf (who doesn't get a color because he doesn't count), who, as cited repeatedly, was not in a position to know and did not examine JonBenet's vagina in the last four months before her death, which of course eliminates Beuf as an expert; and

Dr. Spitz, whose opinion was confusing because he may have been referring only to the hymenal abrasion, but I'll give you Spitz.

That's a grand total of ONE expert who may think there was no prior abuse.

The rest who are cited in published case info -

Dr. Jones
Dr. Monteleone
Dr. McCann
Dr. Krugman
Dr. Wecht

- are unanimous that there was prior abuse.

That's five to one, and the one is questionable. Like I've said a zillion times, if it was five to one against prior abuse the RST would be shrieking it from the rooftops.

Man, you'd think given this information, the Ramseys would at least want to explore the subject and find out who the hell may have been molesting their child.

I’ll take Spitz. Based on the following I’m not sure Krugman belongs in the prior abuse column either. Plus there is the FBI. Was Monteleone the one who thought it was harsh wiping and not sexual abuse per se? I'm not sure why Beuf doesn't count. Of all these men he is the only one who ever examined her, dead or alive.

PMPT ppbk ppg 557

"Spitz examined the four slides of tissue taken from JonBenet's vaginal area . . . After viewing the slides, Spitz repeated his opinion: the injury to JonBenet's vagina had happened either at or immediately prior to her death--not earlier"

http://63.147.65.175/news/jon111.htm

"I would guess there was an explosion of rage . . . that led to this death," said Dr. Richard Krugman, dean of the University of Colorado School of Medicine and a nationally known child-abuse expert.

Evidence of "mild trauma" around the vagina "is not diagnostic of sexual abuse," Krugman said. The vaginal injuries can be caused by trauma such as an infection, irritation from a bubble bath or in connection with abuse.

About three months ago, Krugman was asked by Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter to consult on the Ramsey case. He studied the full autopsy report and several other documents.

Krugman said he told Hunter basically what he said Monday, that "there is nothing here that is specific that this was a child who was sexually abused." Instead, Krugman said, "I see a child who was physically abused and is dead."

…

The physical abuse was evidenced, Krugman said, by the severe brain injury and that she had been strangled.

Most of the injuries appear fresh, and Krugman said he has "not had information" nor is there anything in the autopsy report that indicates a history of abuse.

http://p216.ezboard.com/fcrimeandjustice13552frm78.showMessage?topicID=87.topic

KRUGMAN: Well for one to know with certainty that sexual abuse occurred that night I think one would need some forensic evidence that I'm not sure is available. I haven't seen any certainly to make me feel that way. There are a lot of people around the country who have from afar or even from looking at the autopsy said they are certain she was sexually abused. The problem is that children who are sexually abused may or may not have any physical findings. The reason I wouldn't say with certainty that she was or wasn't is because at least 40% of children have absolutely no physical findings and they are being sexually abused; whereas children who have some physical findings around the genital area, may have been physically abused or may have been sexually abused. And I saw nothing to let me know with certainty that sexual abuse was here in this particular case that particular night.


http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/ex_abuse.htm

PMPT pg 305-6

The FBI believed that JonBenet's vaginal trauma was not consistent with a history of sexual abuse, and they had turned up no evidence of any other type of abuse. The sexual violation of JonBenet, whether pre or postmortem did not appear to have been committed for the perpetrators gratification. The penetration, which caused minor genital trauma, was more likely part of a staged crime scene intended to mislead the police.

 

[vicktor]

Kenady claims that Helgoth strangled the kittens that they would find in the junkyard with his bare hands. Also that he said to kenady that he wondereed what it would be like to crack a human skull.

People like Kenady who have been in trouble with the law a lot sometimes enjoy joining the other side looking for evidence that an acquaintance was involved in something. It gives them a chance to be virtuous for a little while, plus maybe getting some notareity and positive attention from LE. Someone like this (Kenady) whole life is one big story. His statements sound a little too good to be true.

 

[Britt]

Tipper, thanks for the info and links. I'll check those out.

Was Monteleone the one who thought it was harsh wiping and not sexual abuse per se?

That was Krugman.

I'm not sure why Beuf doesn't count.

Because he says the last time he checked JB's vagina was August '96. If she was being abused between August and her death, please explain to me how would he know based on physical evidence. I realize he insists, defensively as her pediatrician, that she wasn't abused, but what evidence does he have to back it up? He has none. He doesn't count.

PMPT pg 305-6

The FBI believed that JonBenet's vaginal trauma was not consistent with a history of sexual abuse...

This could be referring to Krugman's interpretation -- that it wasn't "sexual" but "physical" abuse in the vaginal area.

IOW, e.g. she wasn't being sexually molested... she was being physically punished/abused in the vagina.

Krugman believes JB was physically abused in the vagina... he makes a distinction between "sexual abuse" and "physical abuse." He believes the injury the night of JB's death may have been to stage a sexual attack in order to hide prior physical vaginal abuse. I've posted all that stuff before, his interview quotes etc.

I think if we just call it "prior vaginal abuse" we can avoid semantics confusion re "sexual abuse."

 

[Camper]

Well do keep in mind that Dr. Boofs medical record of his treatment of JonBenet, vanished, donut know whur it went.

So if we take his and PR's word about when, where, why, and what was done in examination of JonBenet, we sit in dumb wonderment, wondering where the truth really is.

The visits to the school nurse on the two Mondays preceding Christmas, still fill me with wonderment.

Does LE know why she visited the school nurse, betcha they don't. IF IF IF she had a sore bottom, PR probably explained it away as an infection, er huh?

Lets see now, Mondays usually follow a weekend at home ? with whom? Did she get an owwee every weekend, wonder whut it was, hmmm.

 

[tipper]

I remember reading something about Beuf putting the records in a safety deposit box because he thought they might be/had been? gotten to by reporters. I think there was some confusion about their whereabouts at one point because of that but I couldn't find anything saying they had been lost.

Dogs shed year 'round. Less in winter but they still shed. Just like people.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/03/16-2.html

The family has made Burke Ramsey's interview with the psychiatrist - who was selected by the Boulder County Department of Social Services - and all of JonBenet's medical records available to the prosecutor. They also allowed pediatrician Dr. Francesco Beuf and his nurses to speak with investigators.

http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail01.asp?ID=24

Hunter would later say he called the grand jury "to get medical records," but admitted the medical records he sought were turned over to him before the grand jury was even selected.

 

[Camper]

Thanks Tipper.

 

[Shylock]

The sexual violation of JonBenet, whether pre or postmortem did not appear to have been committed for the perpetrators gratification. The penetration, which caused minor genital trauma, was more likely part of a staged crime scene intended to mislead the police.

Yep, either a "staged molestation", or the work of a 9-year old who really didn't know what he was doing.
I'll bet on the kid.

 

[BlueCrab]

Yep, either a "staged molestation", or the work of a 9-year old who really didn't know what he was doing.
I'll bet on the kid.

Whoever did it had done it before to JonBenet.

The hymen had been worn away and nothing was left of it except a partial rim. And the acute injury to the vagina (inflicted that night) was at the same 7 o'clock position as the chronic injury to the vagina (inflicted days before).

The stick didn't do it. The consensus among medical experts was the injuries to the vagina were caused by a finger or the penis of a juvenile.

JMO

 

[Nedthan Johns]

You are reaching there, they never said the penis of a juvenille. but I wouldn't rule it out. I just think Burke would have been far to young to have been the culprit, and I don't believe there was any other child in the home that night besides JB and Burke

 

[BlueCrab]

You are reaching there, they never said the penis of a juvenille. but I wouldn't rule it out. I just think Burke would have been far to young to have been the culprit, and I don't believe there was any other child in the home that night besides JB and Burke

Ned,

I agree they never said it in blunt words because of the age of Burke and the fact that it would automatically point toward Burke, but sexual penetration by a juvenile penis was implied. For instance:

PMPT pb, pg 56;

"During the autopsy, Meyer had told Arndt and Trujillo that JonBenet had suffered an injury consistent with vaginal penetration -- digital or OTHERWISE. In his opinion, she'd sustained some kind of genital trauma that could be consistent with sexual contact." (emphasis mine)

IOW, due to the size of the object penetrating her which caused the relatively minor acute and chronic injuries, it was either a finger or a juvenile penis (not an adult).

JMO

 

[Jayelles]

Having seen the characters on the documentary that Helgoth and Mr X hung around with, I am trying to imagine them discussing their "attaches".

Tracey & co's theory also doesn't address the big bugaboo - the pineapple.

The documentary also inmplied that the ramseys agreed to talk with them - despite being told not to speak with the media. However, the clip which follwed appears to have been footage which may have been filmed for the first documentary but not shown. Patsy comes across as quite agressive in it - spitting peas.