NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00 #2

[StillGoingAtIt]

Whew! I was worried I would break some rules on my first post. I want to followup with some more ideas and questions I have about finding the Middle Child and her mother.

Although I definitely believe that the most certain way to identify the MC and her mom is Dr. Rae-Venter's DNA tree method, it may take a few more years before there are enough DNA samples, especially if MC's mom is a member of some ethnic group that doesn't use DNA ancestry organizations like Ancestry.com and 23&Me.

If I am right in my supposition that MC's mom wanted TPR to take responsibility for their child (MC), then I think there is a chance that she put TPR's name as the father on the birth certificate of their child. This would have made it much easier for her to collect child support. While TPR was still working in Texas (where I think MC's mom probably was) he may have been giving her some money. I am not sure of the steps required to get a child support court order but it probably involves filing for an order in some county court. Then if payments are not made I think there is a process to get a judgement, and finally if the father does not make payments there is a process to get a warrant for his arrest.

Question 1: How does a web sleuth search for a birth certificate knowing only the father's name, for example in Texas?

Question 2: How does a web sleuth search for a court order to pay child support in Texas? Is this a public record? Does FOIA apply? Do you have to pay search and copy fees?

Question 3: Suppose MC's mother did not get a birth certificate or did not list TPR by name as the father, is there a process for her to get a child support order in Texas? How could a web sleuth find this record?

I am asking primarily about Texas, because TPR was working there, probably making decent money from an oil field job. Texas is a big state so I think MC's mom was there too, but she could have been somewhere else, maybe a Native American reservation or even Mexico.

 

[AliceInPain]

@StillGoingAtIt
Was child support as important in the 70s as it is today? Obviously for the woman, but was the government working on finding these absent parents as much as they are today?
Also, I think isotope testing on their hair showed Marlyse (not Marie or Sarah) had been to the same area as the middle child a few months prior to their death, and it was speculated she had gone to pick the child up from somewhere?

You have a lot of good thoughts, just replying as I read.

 

[Valiant]

I believe it wasn't until the 1990s that states began requiring the father be listed on the birth certificate if the mother intended to receive government benefits (the idea being the states could then pursue the father who was not supporting his children). So for a child born in the 1970s, the father could still be listed as unknown and the mother still get benefits.

 

[Alleykins]

@StillGoingAtIt
Was child support as important in the 70s as it is today? Obviously for the woman, but was the government working on finding these absent parents as much as they are today?
Also, I think isotope testing on their hair showed Marlyse (not Marie or Sarah) had been to the same area as the middle child a few months prior to their death, and it was speculated she had gone to pick the child up from somewhere?

You have a lot of good thoughts, just replying as I read.

RBBM for focus.

(This was from the 2015 press conference announcing the isotope finding, during the Q&A session)

Approx. 3-7 months prior to their deaths, the isotope results showed all three related victims were in a more northern climate than NH. However, they were discussing this in the context of whether or not that more northern climate could have been Canada. The AG never stated if it were the same location as the MC's, as he never got a chance to clarify this to possibly mean the MC's areas, as far as I could find. I homed in on this when I heard this, as it was something that jumped out at me while listening to the raw footage. It looked like the AG was about to elaborate more on that when one of the audience members interrupted and then moved on to the next reporter, so we never got clarification as to whether it was or could be the same location as the MC. I think it's a possibility the areas were one and the same, but it's a hunch, not a verified fact.

 

[Melt71]

What do we know about the viability of the DNA samples available? @othram any visibility of what might be be worked on here?

 

[Alleykins]

What do we know about the viability of the DNA samples available? @othram any visibility of what might be be worked on here?

The AG said in the 2015 press conference DNA samples from all 4 victims were severely degraded and limited. So much so, that he didn't feel comfortable comparing them to the criminal database to suss out a possible father for the children (that, and it's a different protocol for criminal DNA than unidentified remains, he said). This is paraphrased from that pc.
And later, when they compared TPR's DNA to the victims to determine whether he was related to any of them, they couldn't compare Marlyse's DNA to TPR, it was so degraded. I found that in an article, and is probably linked somewhere in a previous post on this thread.

 

[Melt71]

Thanks @Alleykins so unless traditional research turns something up they will have to wait for more advanced DNA science, perhaps.

 

[othram]

The AG said in the 2015 press conference DNA samples from all 4 victims were severely degraded and limited. So much so, that he didn't feel comfortable comparing them to the criminal database to suss out a possible father for the children (that, and it's a different protocol for criminal DNA than unidentified remains, he said). This is paraphrased from that pc.
And later, when they compared TPR's DNA to the victims to determine whether he was related to any of them, they couldn't compare Marlyse's DNA to TPR, it was so degraded. I found that in an article, and is probably linked somewhere in a previous post on this thread.

It is not uncommon for DNA to be unsuitable (particularly because of degradation) for traditional testing like CODIS. However, this is doesn't necessarily mean it would fail the sort of testing we do. No way to know for sure without more details from their lab on the condition of the DNA evidence.

 

[Alleykins]

It is not uncommon for DNA to be unsuitable (particularly because of degradation) for traditional testing like CODIS. However, this is doesn't necessarily mean it would fail the sort of testing we do. No way to know for sure without more details from their lab on the condition of the DNA evidence.

This was from 2015. Investigators used the best science available to them at that time, and had stated they were pretty much out of options, unless something new came along, which, it has. In the raw footage video, it does give the specifics as to how degraded the samples were, using the day's technology.

 

[StillGoingAtIt]

RBBM for focus.

(This was from the 2015 press conference announcing the isotope finding, during the Q&A session)

Approx. 3-7 months prior to their deaths, the isotope results showed all three related victims were in a more northern climate than NH. However, they were discussing this in the context of whether or not that more northern climate could have been Canada. The AG never stated if it were the same location as the MC's, as he never got a chance to clarify this to possibly mean the MC's areas, as far as I could find. I homed in on this when I heard this, as it was something that jumped out at me while listening to the raw footage. It looked like the AG was about to elaborate more on that when one of the audience members interrupted and then moved on to the next reporter, so we never got clarification as to whether it was or could be the same location as the MC. I think it's a possibility the areas were one and the same, but it's a hunch, not a verified fact.

I don't know if isotope analysis is so accurate that it can detect where a person has been on a short term basis. I also didn't see the report that said that Honeychurch had been in the same area as MC and may have brought her with her to NH. I'm going to analyze the available isotope data again. The timeline I have been developing just summarized the isotope data as "Honeychurch family in NH 1-2 years" and "MC in NH 1 week to few months" prior to death. That raised the question in my mind, "How did MC get to NH so close to the time of her death (and why)?" Personally, I don't think it is likely that TPR sent Marlyse far away to pick up his daughter. If the whole family traveled together to meet MC and MC's mom i can see all of them coming back to NH together. This story has a lot of twists and turns and this would be another one.

The Canada thing is also a puzzler. I was thinking TPR was escaping something in Texas or the southwest by going to the northwest, but if he went to NH to be closer to Canada where his child and old GF is, that puts a different light on the subject.

 

[Alleykins]

I don't know if isotope analysis is so accurate that it can detect where a person has been on a short term basis. I also didn't see the report that said that Honeychurch had been in the same area as MC and may have brought her with her to NH. I'm going to analyze the available isotope data again. The timeline I have been developing just summarized the isotope data as "Honeychurch family in NH 1-2 years" and "MC in NH 1 week to few months" prior to death. That raised the question in my mind, "How did MC get to NH so close to the time of her death (and why)?" Personally, I don't think it is likely that TPR sent Marlyse far away to pick up his daughter. If the whole family traveled together to meet MC and MC's mom i can see all of them coming back to NH together. This story has a lot of twists and turns and this would be another one.

The Canada thing is also a puzzler. I was thinking TPR was escaping something in Texas or the southwest by going to the northwest, but if he went to NH to be closer to Canada where his child and old GF is, that puts a different light on the subject.

Yes, isotopes can be inaccurate or so vague, they're difficult to use as a tool to pinpoint someone's region of origin. They were sort of spot on for Marlyse, as she spent her childhood on the east coast. I've never seen the actual isotope report, only the maps and information released at the 2015 press conference. They seemed confident about the time line, that Marlyse, her daughters, and the MC weren't in NH for all that long prior to their deaths, and that the MC lived with them for 2 weeks to 3 mos prior to her death. Meaning, she ate the same food, drank the same water, and breathed the same air as the others did during that time.
I believe somewhere between CA & NH, TPR, Marlyse & daughters stopped for a short period of time, possibly where the MC was from, and then took her with them when they left for NH. And there are a few scenarios in which he could do this legitimately, without raising any suspicion in doing so, or any red flags.
These are just my beliefs, based on my interpretation of what information is out there.

 

[StillGoingAtIt]

It is not uncommon for DNA to be unsuitable (particularly because of degradation) for traditional testing like CODIS. However, this is doesn't necessarily mean it would fail the sort of testing we do. No way to know for sure without more details from their lab on the condition of the DNA evidence.

I completely understand how DNA can get degraded. OTOH, DNA testing methods are improving rapidly. The question is whether these methods are being applied to the A4 victims. The isotope analysis is only approximate, as best as I can understand. The way I understand it, samples of hair, fingernails, teeth and other body parts that grow are analyzed by a machine that detects the minerals that were in the water the person drank. These minerals vary by region because water around the country has different minerals. However, i remember seeing a footnote on one of the isotope map that said that the large maps were "general" and there were a lot of local variations. Possibly if I drank only Poland Spring water and used it for cooking my isotope analysis would show I was from Maine, although I have never been there. I need to study this more.

 

[Alleykins]

@StillGoingAtIt
How a Jane Doe child case uncovered a serial killer, identified victims and changed the use of DNA forensics
In this article, it states BRV did genealogy on all 4 Allenstown victims, so I believe she is still researching the MC's family tree.
I can't find the other article I read, but it also stated she was working on the MC's genealogy, too, using the hair sample.

 

[StillGoingAtIt]

@StillGoingAtIt
How a Jane Doe child case uncovered a serial killer, identified victims and changed the use of DNA forensics
[BOLD]In this article, it states BRV did genealogy on all 4 Allenstown victims, so I believe she is still researching the MC's family tree.
I can't find the other article I read, but it also stated she was working on the MC's genealogy, too, using the hair sample.[/BOLD]

That's great news. I have major respect for BRV. I think the DNA tree method she uses will eventually identify MC, but it could take years. A lot of what she does is convince the various players in the DNA database business to talk to each other. Once BRV gets close to identifying MC and identifies her living relatives we will possibly learn what really happened to MC's mom.

BTW, @Alleykins, I think I figured out how you bold the quote and I'm pretty sure 'Bold' is one of the letters in RBBM, but I cant seem to suss out the rest of that acronym.

• [Edit] OK. I'm an idiot. I thought you just type the html but no, you have to highlight and press B.

 

[kemo]

Canada could be a wildcard in this mystery. I am sure information on isotopes, missing persons, child support judgements are all available to the FBI but Genetic information may not be.

While sendings one’s cheek swab off to 23 & me is a big deal in the US, I am not so sure it is in the Great White North. Immigration patterns have been different there and I have the impression that most people are pretty sure of their ethnic background. There may be a lot less Familial DNA available on the various data bases for effective Genetic Genealogy. Canadians out there: any ideas?

 

[Owutatangledweb]

I believe it wasn't until the 1990s that states began requiring the father be listed on the birth certificate if the mother intended to receive government benefits (the idea being the states could then pursue the father who was not supporting his children). So for a child born in the 1970s, the father could still be listed as unknown and the mother still get benefits.

Uniform Interstate Family Support Act - Wikipedia

 

[Alleykins]

That's great news. I have major respect for BRV. I think the DNA tree method she uses will eventually identify MC, but it could take years. A lot of what she does is convince the various players in the DNA database business to talk to each other. Once BRV gets close to identifying MC and identifies her living relatives we will possibly learn what really happened to MC's mom.

BTW, @Alleykins, I think I figured out how you bold the quote and I'm pretty sure 'Bold' is one of the letters in RBBM, but I cant seem to suss out the rest of that acronym.

• [Edit] OK. I'm an idiot. I thought you just type the html but no, you have to highlight and press B.

RBBM - Respectfully bolded by me, at least, I think that's what it means, LOL

BRV said that in one of the articles I read but can't find, that it could take years by that method to ID the MC.

 

[StillGoingAtIt]

RBBM - Respectfully bolded by me, at least, I think that's what it means, LOL

BRV said that in one of the articles I read but can't find, that it could take years by that method to ID the MC.

You are right of course. And I knew what you meant. I thought I knew most of the internet forum acronyms but somehow I missed that one. I DID find the list of acronyms on this site somewhere. The page had a non-descript name that I can't remember even though I was just reading it a minute ago.

 

[CCJD]

You are right of course. And I knew what you meant. I thought I knew most of the internet forum acronyms but somehow I missed that one. I DID find the list of acronyms on this site somewhere. The page had a non-descript name that I can't remember even though I was just reading it a minute ago.

Websleuths Lingo

 

[StillGoingAtIt]

Uniform Interstate Family Support Act - Wikipedia

Thanks. I looked up some more websites with information on birth certificate searches and lerned that it is pretty hard to look up birth certificates unless you have some connection to the person you are looking up. Also, in Texas it is pretty hard for an unmarried woman to put a fathers name on the birth certificate unless the father is present or he signs a Voluntary Paternity Certificate (or there is a paternity test, which is a more modern thing.)

A mother can file a suit for an order to pay child support naming the father but there would have to be a hearing. If he didn't pay there would have to be another hearing to get a judgement and a warrant. Although TPR was not known by that name when he was arrested for murdering Eunsoon Jun the NH LE should have run a warrant check when TPR was linked to Bob Evans in 2016 and I think they probably did.

That still leaves me with the question off why TPR wanted to change his name and give up his past if he wasn't running from something.