NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

[sidneyia]

UPDATE:
The adult female is maternally related but she is not the mother, the middle child is not related at all.
There are some changes on the age estimates also and will update when I receive.
Thank you.

This post is from February 2012, from an insider on the case. Unless there's been another update with the DNA since then, the adult woman cannot be the mother of the two related girls. She would have to be related to them in some other way (aunt, cousin, older sister).

 

[carbuff]

This post is from February 2012, from an insider on the case. Unless there's been another update with the DNA since then, the adult woman cannot be the mother of the two related girls. She would have to be related to them in some other way (aunt, cousin, older sister).

Now I'm puzzled. I don't see how they can determine that she's definitively not the mother if all they have to go on is a maternal-line mtDNA match. mtDNA tells you whether two people are related through an unbroken female line, and that line might or might not include a maternal relationship. I can see "not necessarily the mother," but...hm. Gonna have to go do more research to figure out how that's possible.

 

[zinc]

Carl suggested:

What they are probably saying is that there is a Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) connection, but Nuclear DNA (nucDNA) testing reveals no maternal connection.

I misspoke. I should have said there is no mother-child connection.

The adult female currently has "full mtDNA profile at national CODIS; only 2 STR loci obtained from remains after multiple attempts." The two maternally-related girls have full (all 13 CODIS STR loci) STR profiles available. Possibly the 2 STR loci available for the adult female don't share any overlap with those loci in the two maternally-related girls.

However, I don't know that Lavanda Dolce's information from 2012 was ever corroborated. None of the most recent news articles rule out direct mother-child relationship.

 

[imnotfussy]

Fellows Websleuthers could there be another body out there somewhere, it has always stated that one of the girls was not biologically related to the wooman as a daughter but could be a relative, some maybe instead of one woman and three kids murdered there could be two women and three or more kids murdered. Questions did investigators throughly search the area completely there might be more barrels out there, or the body could just be buried outthere somewhere. If I were the investigators in this case I would start looking into communes, the Native American Indian and migrant worker communtity as well as looking into religious cults.

This thought has occurred to me too. I cannot understand why the mother of the second child is not jumping up and down to find her child. Is she dead and her body in yet another barrel? Murdered and her body put in another location (unlikely)? OR, Could a woman be the murderer, the mother of the second child the murderer of the children? Could the Jane DOE have been in a lesbian relationship and killed her own child, the second child.

I just don't see a mother abandoning her child without trying to track the child. The fact that a second barrell was found downstream makes me think the search wasn't that extensive. So what if there was a third barrel and it sunk ... presumably whoever killed them weighted down the barrels so they didn't float. I'd like to see that whole area searched underwater and assuming a third barrel is around and washed considerably further downstream. It would make sense that there is another body out there.

 

[carbuff]

The barrels weren't in water. They were in a wooded area where several similar barrels and other waste had been discarded.

 

[DBinMA]

I just don't see a mother abandoning her child without trying to track the child.

There are all sorts of valid reasons why a woman would be raising a non biological child that wouldn't have people out trying to track them down. The most obvious being adoption. I suspect there are far more people raising other peoples children in this country than we can fathom. Many are probably not even any kind of legal/official arrangement.

I also don't think it's that far fetched for a mother to abandon a child and not be searching, our boards are full of stories brimming with proof that not all mothers are created equal.

 

[LucyOso]

Grace and Gracie Reapp vanished in 1978 in Vermont. Foul play is suspected. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/reapp_grace.html

I am assuming the Stuart family has been ruled out...

 

[scmom]

Grace and Gracie Reapp vanished in 1978 in Vermont. Foul play is suspected. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/reapp_grace.html

I am assuming the Stuart family has been ruled out...

I was wondering about the Stuarts also. Also, Beverly Wise (mother of Tiffany) was murdered and sisters, Tiffany Wise, and Brandi Summers disappeared in March, 1977.

 

[killarney rose]

Grace and Gracie Reapp vanished in 1978 in Vermont. Foul play is suspected. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/r/reapp_grace.html

I am assuming the Stuart family has been ruled out...

If MR killed them and they are in the barrels, that would also open up that he was a possible serial killer. I do believe he killed Grace and Gracie.

 

[dotr]

I was wondering about the Stuarts also. Also, Beverly Wise (mother of Tiffany) was murdered and sisters, Tiffany Wise, and Brandi Summers disappeared in March, 1977.

Ws thread here, maybe something matches?

CA CA - Brandi Summers, 5, & Tiffani Wise, 2: sisters, San Bernadino, 30 March 1977 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[LucyOso]

If MR killed them and they are in the barrels, that would also open up that he was a possible serial killer. I do believe he killed Grace and Gracie.

There are pieces and parts missing in MR's past and his grand finale was to kidnap someone and die as a John Doe. There could be 2 families involved and one mother (heaven forbid) in an undiscovered barrel or elsewhere. It does appear that MR was known to have extramarital affairs. I wonder if police looked into the whereabouts of those women? It is possible that Grace witnesses or found something out about MR and his affairs and thus he killed her. Ideas?

Jericho is 160 miles to Allenstown. Straight shot on I-89N.



I do have a question for an expert out there on DNA...Is it possible when bodies are in a barrel the sludge (for lack of better word) can make it difficult to isolate DNA. How easy is cross contamination? Is there a chance they might not be totally related or all related?

 

[LucyOso]

Ws thread here, maybe something matches?

CA CA - Brandi Summers, 5, & Tiffani Wise, 2: sisters, San Bernadino, 30 March 1977 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I was wondering about them as well. The only thing that would seem easy to rule-out is that Brandi had cystic fibrosis and that is genetic. So I am not sure if they tested for genetic diseases.

 

[LucyOso]

I created a bit of a NAMUS recap. Mainly for myself, LOL, so I can remember which UIDs were found on what dates. I am also looking more into what are classified as parental kidnappings. Unfortunately, at that time is was really common for mothers to get full custody after a divorce and move out of the areas. So, a father, who maybe wasn't super involved to begin with, might not have reported them missing and went ahead and moved on with his life. I don't thing we can search boards, etc. for the missing unless a report was filed with LE.

Found 11/10/1985

UP # 2714
Age: 23 and 32
64” tall est.
curly light brown hair

R/O:
Nancy Baird
Cynthia Goodling
Ella Beth Lodermeier
Anne Manchester
Aleca Manning
Linda Nickell
Patricia Otto
Kristina Perkins
Wanda Priddy
Patricia Schmidt
Diane Schulte
Kimberly Stewart

Probable year of death 1978-1985

UP #2173
Age: 5-10
51” tall, est.
brown hair
Probable year of death 1982-1985 (not sure why her timeline is different)

Found 05/09/2000
R/O: None Listed

Namus UP#2176
Age 1-3
29”
Blonde/Strawberry
probable year of death: 1978-1985
R/O:
Mellisa Bustemante (disappeared in 2000)
Kelly Yates

Namus UP#2175
Age 4-8
44”
light brown
probable year of death: 1978-1985
R/O: Kimberly Yates

 

[Lost In Logic]

This is my first time posting, so I hope this goes alright. I've read this thread in it's entirety and although I've seen a few references to Canada, there hasn't been a whole lot of focus on the sex trade market between Canada and the US. For decades our aboriginal women and children have been sold off to the states in a number of different fashions.

This article posted in August 2013 strictly details the Thunder Bay, Ontario to Duluth, Minnesota trafficking issue that's been carried out for longer than we could all imagine: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thund...n-sold-on-u-s-ships-researcher-says-1.1325167

Women, children and babies have been sold on these ships for "parties" and there's no clear evidence of what happens after they make it to the USA as each case has it's own variables. I know Minnesota is a fair distance from NH but Allenstown is only a 1 hour drive from the port in Portsmouth (for ship trafficking) or 3 hours from the Quebec border (long haul truck trafficking).

 

[dotr]

This is my first time posting, so I hope this goes alright. I've read this thread in it's entirety and although I've seen a few references to Canada, there hasn't been a whole lot of focus on the sex trade market between Canada and the US. For decades our aboriginal women and children have been sold off to the states in a number of different fashions.

This article posted in August 2013 strictly details the Thunder Bay, Ontario to Duluth, Minnesota trafficking issue that's been carried out for longer than we could all imagine: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thund...n-sold-on-u-s-ships-researcher-says-1.1325167

Women, children and babies have been sold on these ships for "parties" and there's no clear evidence of what happens after they make it to the USA as each case has it's own variables. I know Minnesota is a fair distance from NH but Allenstown is only a 1 hour drive from the port in Portsmouth (for ship trafficking) or 3 hours from the Quebec border (long haul truck trafficking).

Welcome to Ws. Lost In Logic !

Glad you are interested in the potential for Canadian victims, something I like to keep my eye on too!

Here is one of the threads,it includes the above info.

SPOTLIGHT CASE Human Trafficking Awareness Thread - Page 11 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[los2188]

Bedford Police Department Seeks Assistance In The Identification of these Remains.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/16/authorities-hope-new-images-unidentified-bodies-will-help-solve-new-hampshire/

http://doj.nh.gov/criminal/cold-case/victim-list/allenstown.htm

CONCORD, N.H. —
Two steel drums, found 15 years apart, held two bodies each. Three of them girls under 10. All were partially dismembered. Decades after they were dumped in the New Hampshire woods, investigators have no idea who they are.

On November 10, 1985 a hunter discovered the remains of an adult white female (23-33 years old) and a female child (8-10 years old) inside a 55 gallon metal drum in woods located in the Bear Brook Garden Trailer Park near 22 Edgewood Drive in Allenstown, NH.

On May 9, 2000 two more victims were found in the same vicinity. These victims were also in a metal drum. The third victim was a white female child (1-3 years old) and the fourth victim was also a white female child (4-8 years old). These two children are biologically related to the adult female and it is possible all four victims are related.

It is believed that the victims were killed sometime between 1977-1985. Police have determined through DNA testing that three of the four were related. Investigators determined that each victim died of blunt force trauma to the head.

No one has ever come forward to identify the remains.

If you have information concerning this case, contact the New Hampshire State Police (Chris Saragusa) at 603-223-3856 or the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children at 1-800-843-5678.

 

[LucyOso]

Is it possible to do DNA/ancestry, origins on these UID's? I don't think this family was reported missing in the traditional sense. Bear with me here…LOL. How could a family go missing or vanish without anyone knowing? Could this be a scenario that was played out as an international custody situation? Husband kills foreign born wife and kids. Possibly to make room for new lover, free himself, etc. Tells family and neighbors wife from other country ran off with the kids. Maybe even goes to court to "gain custody" or get all the assets in a no contest divorce. Husband is surrounded by support and is devastated. Gains sympathy with woman and at work, etc. Parental abduction during the time in most states was a misdemeanor with little recourse. Hague convention not established until 1984. This was a rather common occurrence during the time, a foreign born spouse returning to the home country with the kids, only for the spouse left behind in the US to never see the kids again. There was little to no recourse, except getting custody in the USA and that (as it still is now in a lot of countries) is a piece of paper with no validity. If the spouse was from a country that was impoverished, communistic, worn torn, etc the family overseas would never look for her, have the resources or energy to do so, or even know she had kids. The perp may not have even made the effort or show of going to court for custody. But, might have for a divorce. If this was a situation of a "mail-order bride" or even just a foreign born bride, at times men chose woman this way to objectify and control them. If there was a language barrier, etc. the spouse would have been very reliant on him and would have very few close relationships. He would be the family "spokesperson" and could easily paint the scenario of being the victim saying the wife took the kids overseas. She would have been in a traditional housewife role which matched his control and hide abuse. IDK. Just brain storming. But, it would be interesting to know the DNA origins on the UIDs.

To add to this…Man (military, work related, etc) fathers child overseas or is an immigrant that sends for family. Takes years to get wife, child to USA. If she was from a country with little resources or had to do what she needed to survive, is pregnant or has 2nd child with other father in home country. Or has adopted 2nd child who lost parents (this is common in other countries, taking in children (especially removed cousins, related by marriage, etc) if parents were killed during war, unrest, etc). US husband gets her to USA finally with kid (s). Have another child. Middle child creates severe issues in family, distrust with wife (questioning paternity of other kids), financial burden, husband more Americanized, etc, etc. Escalating violence. Relationship idealized when apart or part of cultural obligation/duty, not so great once together…Does not end well. Tells everyone wife went back to "parents" or home country.

Anyway, here are a few articles during the time about spouses taking kids overseas and how things such as the Hague convention came to be in certain countries.

Tracking abducted kids overseas difficult
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...ather+gets+custody+of+missing+daughters&hl=en

Kidnaped : Thousands of Kids Have Been Taken Abroad in Custody Fights; It's Almost Impossible to Get Them Back
http://articles.latimes.com/1988-10-30/news/vw-740_1_sole-custody

 

[carbuff]

I wonder if John Edward Robinson has been looked into? He was from Illinois, but his victims were found in metal drums/barrels in both Kansas and Missouri, Kansas where he was active in mainly. I know Kansas is far from New Hampshire, but I wonder if he ever was that way at one point. The woman and children fit in the timeline as far as I know.

I submitted that possibility a couple of years ago, and they told me they looked into it.

 

[PMLsmom]

Bumping back up...Per NamUs, the Stuarts have not been ruled out...did anyone get any kind of response regarding them???

https://identifyus.org/cases/2174

Nancy Baird 1952 Utah
Nancy Baird 1952 Utah
Sharon Giusti 1943 Washington
Cynthia Goodling 1958 Florida
Rhonda Labbe 1956 Massachusetts
Ella Beth Lodermeier 1948 South Dakota
Anne Manchester 1954 Delaware
Anne Manchester 1954 Delaware
Aleca Manning 1952 Arizona
Aleca Manning 1953 Arizona
Linda Nickell 1955 Michigan
Linda Nickell 1955 Michigan
Patricia Otto 1952 Idaho
Kristina Perkins 1953 Arizona
Wanda Priddy 1958 Texas
Patricia Schmidt 1964 Virginia
Patricia Schmidt 1964 Virginia
Diane Schulte 1954 Idaho
Kimberly Stewart 1956 California

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/stuart_mary.html

 

[Woodland]

Wondering if the 'middle child' who has a difficult to define relationship with the other UID's could possibly be Patricia Ann Wood.

NH NH - Patricia Ann Wood, 3/4, Swanzey, 1976 - Not discovered until 1987 (11 years) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

In the case of Patricia Ann, it would be expected to find only one set of remains as she is the only one from the family that is known to be missing since circa 1976.

There is no description of Patricia Ann anywhere to exclude her as a possibility so wondering if she shares a father with the youngest child found in Allenstown. Jmo.