NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

[leonhardt]

I think if it's a DNA ruleout on any one of the three who are related, that automatically rules out the other two?

Especially since they're all women and if they're going off mitochondrial DNA, that's probably the case.

 

[Aeronomy]

I think if it's a DNA ruleout on any one of the three who are related, that automatically rules out the other two?

Thanks, I'm somewhat uncertain too.
I think I understand why it would rule them out, but then I REALLY don't know with 100% certainty if it would/should.

 

[KaylaraOwl]

Are Lori and Linda Peugot on the rule out list yet?

 

[carbuff]

The Barrels.

Why barrels? Obviously to conceal them. Particularly during transporting them. This also implies that a truck was involved, as I doubt a 55 gallon drum would fit in a car trunk.
But, short of incinerating, or sinking them to the bottom of the ocean - burial is the next best choice. But they didn't bury them. Could it be because they were killed in the winter, and the ground was too frozen?

Also - barrels were probably easier to get back then. They are well regulated now. But they would have been worth something... Could they have been reported stolen? If not because of their own value, but because someone broke in someplace to get them?

The barrels and the actual crime:

The person either had the barrels before or after these people were killed. If he had them before, it implies that either this crime was pre mediated, by virtue of the fact he had them already - or he had ready access to them, after he killed them, in cold blood, and knew he could get them.

If he didn't have them - I think this means they were killed inside a private residence. Where they would go unnoticed while he went and found the barrels.

I'm not sure how many premeditated murders are committed by bashing people's heads in, but I'm guessing not a big percentage.

Also, putting them in barrels that can be rolled could make transporting them, and rolling them into the woods, a one man job. But it couldn't have been easy.

Also, if the barrels were filled with whatever material they were designed to hold like solvent, oil, grease, fertilizer that would make them even more valuable, and more likely to be reported stolen.

Is it possible to determine what these barrels were used for? That could help narrow down where they were taken from, and perhaps provide new clues.

Lastly, do we know if there was any clothing found with the victims?

Sorry to ramble. This story really bothers me, so unbelievably cruel.

LE has implied in response to questions at a press conference that they have more information about the barrels than has been made public. And there have been persistent rumors that at least some of the victims were wrapped in something. In response to questions about what else might have been in the barrels, LE has in the past refused to answer.

I don't think it's a given that they were moved din the barrels. Rural New Hampshire is littered with barrels like that in just about every wood lot in the southern part of the state. It's entirely possible that the murderer used barrels he found lying in the woods to conceal the bodies.

Burying either the bodies or the barrels: well, not really much of an option in most of New England. The ground is too rocky and the soil too thin to bury anything much larger than a soup can Bodies around here are usually found in the water, or else just left somewhere. I can believe the location was premeditated as in any of the scenarios you suggest, but I can also believe the murder was looking around for a place to leave the bodies and just happened on the barrels.

 

[Glammie]

For ease of reference, here is the NamUS list latest updated ruled out list:



First Name Last Name Year of Birth State LKA
Nancy Baird 1952 Utah
Nancy Baird 1952 Utah
Rachael Garden 1964 New Hampshire
Sharon Giusti 1943 Washington
Cynthia Goodling 1958 Florida
Pamela Hobley 1954 Michigan
Rhonda Labbe 1956 Massachusetts
Ella Beth Lodermeier 1948 South Dakota
Linda Lovell 1948 Montana
Anne Manchester 1954 Delaware
Anne Manchester 1954 Delaware
Aleca Manning 1952 Arizona
Aleca Manning 1953 Arizona
Linda Nickell 1955 Michigan
Linda Nickell 1955 Michigan
Patricia Otto 1952 Idaho
Kristina Perkins 1953 Arizona
Wanda Priddy 1958 Texas
Laureen Rahn 1966 New Hampshire
Patricia Schmidt 1964 Virginia
Patricia Schmidt 1964 Virginia
Diane Schulte 1954 Idaho
Kathleen Shea 1959 Pennsylvania
Kimberly Stewart 1956 California
Mary Stuart 1945 California

 

[Glammie]

Are Lori and Linda Peugot on the rule out list yet?

Not yet.

 

[Eddie99]

LE has implied in response to questions at a press conference that they have more information about the barrels than has been made public. And there have been persistent rumors that at least some of the victims were wrapped in something. In response to questions about what else might have been in the barrels, LE has in the past refused to answer."

Thank you, that's interesting information.

I am in New York, so I understand the problems associated with digging.

Although your theory, that he could have found the barrels is reasonable. I can't help but think that the police went 15 years, before finding 2 barrels. That makes it hard to believe he got that lucky. 2 other things: even if he did find one barrel. Would it be worth the time and trouble stuffing them in there - then searching around for another one that took the police 15 years to find, to stuff the other victims into?

 

[carbuff]

LE has implied in response to questions at a press conference that they have more information about the barrels than has been made public. And there have been persistent rumors that at least some of the victims were wrapped in something. In response to questions about what else might have been in the barrels, LE has in the past refused to answer.

Thank you, that's interesting information.

I am in New York, so I understand the problems associated with digging.

Although your theory, that he could have found the barrels is reasonable. I can't help but think that the police went 15 years, before finding 2 barrels. That makes it hard to believe he got that lucky. 2 other things: even if he did find one barrel. Would it be worth the time and trouble stuffing them in there - then searching around for another one that took the police 15 years to find, to stuff the other victims into?

It's a good question why there was a 15-year gap. For quite some time after they found the second barrel, there was some question as to whether it had been placed there later; this most recent press conference seems pretty sure that they were all killed at the same time.

I don't think they've ever released the exact location of where the two barrels were relative to each other and to the area landmarks; it's possible the second one was outside the first search area. Or something. It seems like every time a crime isn't solved, people want to blame LE for botching the investigation; in this case it seems like there might be truth to at least some things being overlooked.

 

[Aleph]

I drove out there recently during a trip to NH. I didn't find the exact spot and wasn't really expecting to. But Bear Brook State Park is HUGE. It all felt very rural and isolated.

 

[Sherwood Park]

Thank you, that's interesting information.

I am in New York, so I understand the problems associated with digging.

Although your theory, that he could have found the barrels is reasonable. I can't help but think that the police went 15 years, before finding 2 barrels. That makes it hard to believe he got that lucky. 2 other things: even if he did find one barrel. Would it be worth the time and trouble stuffing them in there - then searching around for another one that took the police 15 years to find, to stuff the other victims into?

"Some days later, on Nov. 10, 1985, hunters stumbled upon the scene and discovered that the tattered plastic covered the naked, partially dismembered, and decomposing bodies of a young woman and little girl."
"The woman and oldest girl died of blunt force trauma to the head, but the cause of death could not be determined for the younger two. Police said it appeared that the woman and oldest girl had been partially dismembered to fit into the steel drum."
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...nues-baffle/I7n4d1NKACqfFhnIwAnVVP/story.html

 

[Sherwood Park]

It's a good question why there was a 15-year gap. For quite some time after they found the second barrel, there was some question as to whether it had been placed there later; this most recent press conference seems pretty sure that they were all killed at the same time.

I don't think they've ever released the exact location of where the two barrels were relative to each other and to the area landmarks; it's possible the second one was outside the first search area. Or something. It seems like every time a crime isn't solved, people want to blame LE for botching the investigation; in this case it seems like there might be truth to at least some things being overlooked.

"Cody said he did not fault police for failing to find the drum earlier because it was a football field away from where the first one was found and wouldn’t have been considered part of the initial crime scene.

Police suspect that the two drums were dumped in the same spot. During the investigation of the initial discovery, police learned that children had rolled the drum into the woods and abandoned it when the trash bag tumbled out, unaware of its contents, Cody said."

 

[carbuff]

It's a large and popular park all year around. If somebody did bring the victims in from somewhere else, there are tens of thousands of people from all over New England and beyond who have camped, fished, hunted, hiked, canoed there over the years, who might think of it if they wanted a remote place.

 

[carbuff]

"Cody said he did not fault police for failing to find the drum earlier because it was a football field away from where the first one was found and wouldn’t have been considered part of the initial crime scene.

Police suspect that the two drums were dumped in the same spot. During the investigation of the initial discovery, police learned that children had rolled the drum into the woods and abandoned it when the trash bag tumbled out, unaware of its contents, Cody said."

Hm, sounds like they decided to release quite a bit more information about what was found than they have in the past. Thanks!

p.s. or more likely, I've just missed stuff...

 

[ice190]

For ease of reference, here is the NamUS list latest updated ruled out list:



First Name Last Name Year of Birth State LKA
Nancy Baird 1952 Utah
Nancy Baird 1952 Utah
Rachael Garden 1964 New Hampshire
Sharon Giusti 1943 Washington
Cynthia Goodling 1958 Florida
Pamela Hobley 1954 Michigan
Rhonda Labbe 1956 Massachusetts
Ella Beth Lodermeier 1948 South Dakota
Linda Lovell 1948 Montana
Anne Manchester 1954 Delaware
Anne Manchester 1954 Delaware
Aleca Manning 1952 Arizona
Aleca Manning 1953 Arizona
Linda Nickell 1955 Michigan
Linda Nickell 1955 Michigan
Patricia Otto 1952 Idaho
Kristina Perkins 1953 Arizona
Wanda Priddy 1958 Texas
Laureen Rahn 1966 New Hampshire
Patricia Schmidt 1964 Virginia
Patricia Schmidt 1964 Virginia
Diane Schulte 1954 Idaho
Kathleen Shea 1959 Pennsylvania
Kimberly Stewart 1956 California
Mary Stuart 1945 California

Someone should humour me and get Beverly Potts ruled out...

Sent from my SCH-I435 using Tapatalk

 

[Eddie99]

It's a good question why there was a 15-year gap. For quite some time after they found the second barrel, there was some question as to whether it had been placed there later; this most recent press conference seems pretty sure that they were all killed at the same time.

I don't think they've ever released the exact location of where the two barrels were relative to each other and to the area landmarks; it's possible the second one was outside the first search area. Or something. It seems like every time a crime isn't solved, people want to blame LE for botching the investigation; in this case it seems like there might be truth to at least some things being overlooked.

I didn't mean to imply that LE bungled anything. 100 yards, is a considerable distance. I certainly understand, how it could be outside a reasonable crime sceen radius..

 

[Laughing]

At the time, was there an Air Force base in New Hampshire?

Up thread, a poster suggested that the parents of the so-far unrelated middle child met in college in South Dakota or Nebraska.

Could the dad/stepdad (or his parent) been stationed at a military base in South Dakota or Nebraska and then a base in the Northeast, creating the blended family group of this case?

:seeya:

 

[carbuff]

Yes. Pease Air Force Base in Portsmouth, about 30-40 miles away. Excellent thought.

 

[tatertot]

Is it possible to determine what these barrels were used for? That could help narrow down where they were taken from, and perhaps provide new clues.

In the late 70s to mid-1980s, at least in PA our family and most of our neighbors had backyard "burning barrels" for disposing of burnable trash. Most areas have stricter burning ordinances now, as well as recycling services for the paper and leaves that would have been burned. Back in the day I remember the burning barrels my dad would buy always looked "used," as in they weren't originally made for that use but probably were reused after they were emptied of their original contents.

 

[rainwater]

Since NCMEC has released recons of the children and the adult female, could Carl use his recons and the NCMEC recons of the children maternally related to the female, to construct a possible recon of the 2 childrens father's face?

 

[cvaldez1975]

This seems to indicate they were killed in a rage while the younger two were killed as a means to an end. Meaning I think the "non related" girl and the youngest girl were probably the murderer's children and the oldest girl was his step child.

"Some days later, on Nov. 10, 1985, hunters stumbled upon the scene and discovered that the tattered plastic covered the naked, partially dismembered, and decomposing bodies of a young woman and little girl."
"The woman and oldest girl died of blunt force trauma to the head, but the cause of death could not be determined for the younger two. Police said it appeared that the woman and oldest girl had been partially dismembered to fit into the steel drum."
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...nues-baffle/I7n4d1NKACqfFhnIwAnVVP/story.html