NH NH/CA - Terry Peder Rasmussen, suspected SK, Allenstown, 1981-2000's - #3

[Alleykins]

I notice that apparently the mother's remains were NOT automatically linked to the child. Possibly she didn't have DNA in the system, I guess--but I thought we'd been told that Namus/Codis compares remains against each other to catch links like this. Am I remembering wrong?

You recall correctly. I specifically asked a NamUs rep if they compared DNA profiles of unidentified remains to each other who are in CODIS, and was told they did. IIRC, I asked them this question specifically because of the siblings/families who went missing together (like the Guthries and Leslies) but who may have ended up as John/Jane Does in different locations, as these two did.

Is it possible one of them didn't have DNA in CODIS?
At the very least, it should have been an mtDNA match, being mother & son.

ETA:
Here is the reply I received 2 years ago.

Yes, unidentified cases are automatically compared to other unidentified cases found.

Sincerely,

Lori

 

[carbuff]

You recall correctly. I specifically asked a NamUs rep if they compared DNA profiles of unidentified remains to each other who are in CODIS, and was told they did. IIRC, I asked them this question specifically because of the siblings/families who went missing together (like the Guthries and Leslies) but who may have ended up as John/Jane Does in different locations, as these two did.

Is it possible one of them didn't have DNA in CODIS?
At the very least, it should have been an mtDNA match, being mother & son.

ETA:
Here is the reply I received 2 years ago.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

This is the mother's Namus, still there at the moment: Unidentified Person Case

It appears she was found very shortly after being left there, in May 1998. Which is a little before taking DNA was routine. The article makes it sound like it's possible that she only had DNA processed after LE found her on a search as a possible match. I'd really like to know, though, because I had been assuming that if the mother of RE's murdered child had also been murdered and unidentified, she would have been connected via DNA.

 

[Alleykins]

Thanks, that's what I thought.

This is the mother's Namus, still there at the moment: Unidentified Person Case

It appears she was found very shortly after being left there, in May 1998. Which is a little before taking DNA was routine. The article makes it sound like it's possible that she only had DNA processed after LE found her on a search as a possible match. I'd really like to know, though, because I had been assuming that if the mother of RE's murdered child had also been murdered and unidentified, she would have been connected via DNA.

Do we know if the mum's DNA was in CODIS? Is she in DN? They sometimes list DNA availability.
Exactly, but only if there was DNA, because this would have been in the 70s/early 80s if the MC's mum was murdered. It's also possible her mother was murdered but was not a Jane Doe, just possibly a cold case, if TR was the one who murdered her. Her DNA wouldn't be in CODIS is she were an identified murder victim. Or, she could be an MP with no DNA available, like Carlene Brown

 

[carbuff]

Do we know if the mum's DNA was in CODIS? Is she in DN? They sometimes list DNA availability.
Exactly, but only if there was DNA, because this would have been in the 70s/early 80s if the MC's mum was murdered. It's also possible her mother was murdered but was not a Jane Doe, just possibly a cold case, if TR was the one who murdered her. Her DNA wouldn't be in CODIS is she were an identified murder victim. Or, she could be an MP with no DNA available, like Carlene Brown

I think it's quite likely that the mother's DNA wasn't in Codis until after LE inquired about the possible match. There wasn't a missing persons report for either of them.

But I would like to know for sure...

 

[Alleykins]

The only case I found in Spartanburg Cty SC in Doe Network is this one, in May of 1998, which would fit the timeline, even though the woman is said to have died from respiratory insufficiency, and it lists DNA available, but not sure if that means it was in CODIS or held locally
233UFSC

ETA: He is listed as East Asian/Bi-Racial so I think this is his mother's case. I'm very surprised they didn't link these two based on circumstances alone.

 

[carbuff]

You recall correctly. I specifically asked a NamUs rep if they compared DNA profiles of unidentified remains to each other who are in CODIS, and was told they did. IIRC, I asked them this question specifically because of the siblings/families who went missing together (like the Guthries and Leslies) but who may have ended up as John/Jane Does in different locations, as these two did.

Is it possible one of them didn't have DNA in CODIS?
At the very least, it should have been an mtDNA match, being mother & son.

ETA:
Here is the reply I received 2 years ago.

Billboard Boy of North Carolina Identified by Genealogy

The further investigation based on the criteria of the mother resulted in a focus on the unidentified female in Spartanburg County. The DNA matched son to mother. (Horne said both were entered in CODIS as “unknowns,” but they were never matched against one another.)

 

[Alleykins]

Billboard Boy of North Carolina Identified by Genealogy

The further investigation based on the criteria of the mother resulted in a focus on the unidentified female in Spartanburg County. The DNA matched son to mother. (Horne said both were entered in CODIS as “unknowns,” but they were never matched against one another.)

Just some questions going through my head:
Does that mean they were never compared? Or were they compared but for some reason, didn't match? Could they have had different types of DNA profiles? Like one had mtDNA and the other didn't? Is that even possible? Oh, my. This makes me rethink everything I've been told, and not only that, it makes me doubt all those times I was told both MP & UP had DNA in CODIS and it would have hit if it were a match. SMH.

 

[carbuff]

I agree.

 

[Alleykins]

I agree.

This also got me to thinking. What if one of us noticed the similarities between mother and son (race, being found off the same highway 3 hours distance wise away from each other, being found in the same year, etc) and sent an inquiry about it to see if they were related? We most likely would have received a response back that stated both are in CODIS and if they were related, there would have been a hit, without anyone even double checking to make sure.

 

[carbuff]

@CarlK90245 , do you have any input on this question? Is there somebody we should talk to to get clarification?

 

[Alleykins]

@CarlK90245 , do you have any input on this question? Is there somebody we should talk to to get clarification?

I definitely would like some clarification on what happened.

 

[kemo]

I think the problem with the Bobby/Myoung Whitt case was that Bobby was not identified as Asian and the two bodies were found in different states. I doubt that CODIS cross refers Unidentifieds for possible genetic relationships. I don’t think a large expenditure of resources to crosscheck all unidentifieds would be worth while but checking unidentified children against unidentified women with connection of time and location would definitely be productive.

I came to this site after reading up on the Bobby/Myoung White case because there may be some lessons learned. It seems so unlikely that a woman and her child can just vanish without anyone reporting it. The explanation that the mother took the child back to her native land would certainly explain it. I still think there is a distinct possibility that the unidentified Bear Brook woman was originally from French Canada.

 

[Alleykins]

I think Bobby was identified as bi-racial/East Asian, according to the Doe Network, but that could have been more recent update, like when they redid his reconstruction.

 

[carbuff]

I think the problem with the Bobby/Myoung Whitt case was that Bobby was not identified as Asian and the two bodies were found in different states. I doubt that CODIS cross refers Unidentifieds for possible genetic relationships. I don’t think a large expenditure of resources to crosscheck all unidentifieds would be worth while but checking unidentified children against unidentified women with connection of time and location would definitely be productive.

I came to this site after reading up on the Bobby/Myoung White case because there may be some lessons learned. It seems so unlikely that a woman and her child can just vanish without anyone reporting it. The explanation that the mother took the child back to her native land would certainly explain it. I still think there is a distinct possibility that the unidentified Bear Brook woman was originally from French Canada.

BBM

But that is exactly how we were told the system operates, and we know of other cases where, for example, a missing head was matched to a bone from another location like the dismembered woman in Spokane.

In most cases it's probably a moot point, but if there's a possibility RE's child hasn't been being compared to other UIDs, that kind of changes the way we've been searching.

 

[Stephen2016]

I know we discussed the possibility a while back, that the restaurant could be where he got the name from, either on the first or second thread.

There was a person with the name of Robert Evans living around the corner on 319 Taylor Street. When the person who owned that house moved a Robert Evans appeared in the directory for 925 Hayward Street. Not sure if Terry / Bob would of known the person on cypress street or not .

* Anyways after ***** sold in 78/79 A robert Evans shows up on Hayward St. The Evans have different middle initials

These are directory listing for manchester in 78 or 79 for Evans. 319 Taylor is not far from 925 hayward. The property was sold in 79 or so and Evans shows up in the City Directory on Hayward Street right after. Could just happen to be a coincidence ... But maybe it's possible that Terry / knew the person on Taylor street . But then again why would someone use an Alias of their neighbor .


Thinking back on this and this has nothing to do with the alias name .... If the mill announced they were closing in 1980 why was Terry bouncing checks in 12/21/79 and stealing electricity from the park behind hayward street in 1980... August 1980 they announced and said the property / factory building would be available in two months October / 1980. If I recall in 10/1980 Terry / Bob Evans didn't have a spouse listed.
<shrug>

 

[Alleykins]

The three Robert Evanses in the listings all appear to work at the same company, which I believe is the former name of the power company, Public Service of NH. I don't think any of them are TPR

 

[carbuff]

Yes, Public Service was the name of the power company when we lived in NH.

 

[Al Ka]

There was a person with the name of Robert Evans living around the corner on 319 Taylor Street. When the person who owned that house moved a Robert Evans appeared in the directory for 925 Hayward Street. Not sure if Terry / Bob would of known the person on cypress street or not .

* Anyways after ***** sold in 78/79 A robert Evans shows up on Hayward St. The Evans have different middle initials

View attachment 169556


View attachment 169557



These are directory listing for manchester in 78 or 79 for Evans. 319 Taylor is not far from 925 hayward. The property was sold in 79 or so and Evans shows up in the City Directory on Hayward Street right after. Could just happen to be a coincidence ... But maybe it's possible that Terry / knew the person on Taylor street . But then again why would someone use an Alias of their neighbor .


Thinking back on this and this has nothing to do with the alias name .... If the mill announced they were closing in 1980 why was Terry bouncing checks in 12/21/79 and stealing electricity from the park behind hayward street in 1980... August 1980 they announced and said the property / factory building would be available in two months October / 1980. If I recall in 10/1980 Terry / Bob Evans didn't have a spouse listed.
<shrug>

Stephen, Thank You for doing the actual leg work.

A bit silly question, but this directory is listing of owners of businesses and where those business are registered, right? And not of the Owners of those properties?

A bit unrelated but I was excited when I saw Donna Evans there registered to Goffstown, place where our Donna Beaudin is from.

With regards to where the name Evans came from - yes it was discussed here long time ago in length. There was one poster at that time with lots of very thorough investigations and researches and she has found and was convinced that name came from real person I think in Pennsylvania (not too sure if my memory is correct about state). She backed it up with quite a few things but left out (on purpose) some details of that real person.

She was good and I personally believe what she found might be correct.

 

[Gardener1850]

A Technological Leap Answers a Decades-Old Question

With Rasmussen’s and his relationship identities solved, three mysteries remained, and the biggest challenge was retrieving usable DNA from the remaining Bear Brook victims. “We did two or three extractions from bone, and a liver extract, and what little we could get was very low quality. In the first sequencing, the amount of human DNA was only 2 percent — the rest was bacterial. Theoretically, you could amplify that, but only at extraordinary expense.”

Then, Dr. Rae-Venter remembered reading about a case where atDNA was obtained from rootless hair for the first time, using technology developed for use by paleontologists.

Nobody had ever gotten atDNA from the hair shaft before.” Dr. Rae-Venter explained that as hair grows, the cells undergo apoptosis, or programmed cell death. As that occurs, the nuclear DNA gets chopped up. The fragments are so small, some of them are only about 45 base pairs, and even polymerase chain reaction (PCR) techniques can’t detect atDNA in the hair shaft.

“I contacted the lab and they agreed to test hair from the Bear Brook victims, which, luckily, was plentiful. After adding a bleaching step to remove the melanin that interferes with DNA extraction, 10 strands of the woman’s hair was sent to the lab. Because the nuclear DNA fragments were so tiny, whole genome sequencing was performed and an algorithm applied, extracting enough data to create a file uploadable to GedMatch.”

Thirty-three years after the crime, breaks in the case are happening fast. On Nov. 13, 2018, Dr. Rae-Venter uploaded the adult victim’s DNA profile to GEDmatch. “I got the results at 6 a.m. the next morning and identified her by 8 through a second-cousin match. All because of atDNA from rootless hair.

“Extracting atDNA from the hair shaft was not possible before,” she emphasized, adding that final identification must still be confirmed by DNA testing of a family member. “The implications of this technology for solving cold cases worldwide are just huge.”

Dr. Rae-Venter uploaded the youngest victim’s profile that Thursday. “I’m sure she will be part of the same family.”

Much more info at link: We Are Data - The Finders: Cracking Cold Cases with Genealogy, Forensics, and DNA - Part Two of A Two-Part Series

BBM.

 

[carbuff]

This is completely jaw-droppingly amazing.