Found Deceased NH - Celina Cass, 11, Stewartstown, 25 July 2011 #10 *Arrest*

[Dr. Know?]

Thanks Steadfast. I see no reason for the AAG to arrest someone until all test are back and the person they want is under treatment. Build the case. It could be more than one person that are involved too. If that's what is going on.

 

[~n/t~]

IMO, even with tox results they won't be able to prove murder unless they have other evidence. Autopsy results from what was reported showed no cause of death nor manner of death. I think that is what has them stumped.

Yes unlikely an 11 year old would commit suicide but it can't be ruled out and neither can accidental death. Suspicious death, perhaps but no proof of a homicide.

If she was wrapped in a blanket then that could make a big difference in the case but it has not been confirmed as fact as far as I know.

 

[Trident]

I am sorry you had to go through this.



I am not familiar at all.



Speculating here...

I am admittedly unfamiliar with NH police and what not but I suspect that there are some very complicated issues with all this for both the police and the doctors. With that said, it seems REALLY hard to believe that the minute a criminal crosses the hospital doorway he can safely turn and thumb his nose at any police in hot pursuit. It is equally hard to imagine that the police are unable to serve an arrest warrant or detain a suspect in a NH hospital.

Obviously the police are not going to haul someone to jail if doing so goes against a doctor's orders or doing so would threaten someone's life, but they could certainly place them into custody at the hospital and station officers to ensure they stay put.



The deptartment of defense and the veteran's administration cooperate with all government agencies, including LE agencies at all levels. In a case like this I suspect the Veteran's Administration Department of Veteran's Affairs Police would detain the suspect until he was transfered to local or NH State Police.

But again, I don't really know.



I am really very interested to hear what you discover.

I'm not sure about the NH laws either, but from researching many, many cases, it is not at all unusual for a party, guilty of something, to either check themselves into a hospital, or do something which would get them in there. It does appear to keep them safe for a while. That's one reason I was skeptical when G Anthony did his suicide "attempt" and ended up in a mental facility of some sort.

Guess we'll have to wait and see what happens when he gets out.

My opinion only

 

[Chris_Texas]

Thanks Steadfast. I see no reason for the AAG to arrest someone until all test are back and the person they want is under treatment. Build the case. It could be more than one person that are involved too. If that's what is going on.

A few reasons come to mind immediately:

1. Safety. So long as he is in custody the suspected maniac isn't gonna kill anyone else.

2. Suspects talk. They reveal accomplices, they confess, they slip up under questioning. Sometimes they want to come clean, but they aren't gonna walk into the police station to do it.

3. It's your JOB. Letting the bad guy run around, potentially killing more people while you painstakingly build an airtight case is NOT part of the job. If you have enough evidence to convince a judge that you have the right guy you make the arrest. That's what the public is paying you to do.

So there's a few quick reasons to arrest the bad guy. On the other side of the coin, there is no real reason to delay an arrest if you have enough evidence to get an arrest warrant. In the case of a child killer the judge is going to deny parole, and despite the constitutional mandate of a speedy trial, that's a mighty subjective thing. Worst case, if the DA's office really isn't ready despite all the delays they can squeeze, well, you let him or her go at that time and rearrest them when you are ready. You can't be tried twice, but you can certainly be arrested twice.

 

[Chris_Texas]

Question: Does anyone know which lab in Penn they are using for the tox tests?

 

[cluciano63]

they have had the toxicology results for some time now.

I'd like to know what you mean by this post.

 

[bstnh1]

A few reasons come to mind immediately:

1. Safety. So long as he is in custody the suspected maniac isn't gonna kill anyone else.

2. Suspects talk. They reveal accomplices, they confess, they slip up under questioning. Sometimes they want to come clean, but they aren't gonna walk into the police station to do it.

3. It's your JOB. Letting the bad guy run around, potentially killing more people while you painstakingly build an airtight case is NOT part of the job. If you have enough evidence to convince a judge that you have the right guy you make the arrest. That's what the public is paying you to do.

So there's a few quick reasons to arrest the bad guy. On the other side of the coin, there is no real reason to delay an arrest if you have enough evidence to get an arrest warrant. In the case of a child killer the judge is going to deny parole, and despite the constitutional mandate of a speedy trial, that's a mighty subjective thing. Worst case, if the DA's office really isn't ready despite all the delays they can squeeze, well, you let him or her go at that time and rearrest them when you are ready. You can't be tried twice, but you can certainly be arrested twice.

You're making a huge assumption as to who the perp may be. I don't buy that assumption. I'm leaning in another direction.

 

[bstnh1]

they have had the toxicology results for some time now.

Do you have a source for that info/

 

[Chris_Texas]

You're making a huge assumption as to who the perp may be. I don't buy that assumption. I'm leaning in another direction.

(Assuming this was a homicide, etc...)

If you think I am leaning towards the Step Dad you would be mistaken. Edit: if not, if you don't mind answering, who did you think I suspect?

 

[Chris_Texas]

Do you have a source for that info/

How could he have a source? I think he is just stating his belief or opinion.

 

[Angelonline]

How could he have a source? I think he is just stating his belief or opinion.

The poster was asking for a source because the orginal poster stated it as if it were fact instead of putting a disclaimer... IMO, JMO, I believe, I think, etc... KWIM? If you don't add one of those disclaimers then us WS folks tend to expect a link!

JMO

 

[joypath]

Question: Does anyone know which lab in Penn they are using for the tox tests?

The laboratory of choice would be NMS Labs, as it has both ABFT and ASCLD-LAB (voluntary) certifications. http://www.nmslab.com/Default.aspx


And just to add to the "mix": here is the ASCLD/LAB document: http://www.ascld-lab.org/cert/ALI-112-T.pdf

N.B. the name of the identified laboratory director!


Oh yeah, for those who were wondering: http://www.ascld-lab.org/cert/cert300.pdf another interesting certificate!

 

[Chris_Texas]

The laboratory of choice would be NMS Labs, as it has both ABFT and ASCLD-LAB (voluntary) certifications. http://www.nmslab.com/Default.aspx


And just to add to the "mix": here is the ASCLD/LAB document: http://www.ascld-lab.org/cert/ALI-112-T.pdf

N.B. the name of the identified laboratory director!


Oh yeah, for those who were wondering: http://www.ascld-lab.org/cert/cert300.pdf another interesting certificate!

Thanks.

According the Slate.com: "NMS Labs in Willow Grove, Pa., for example, employs about 200 scientists for 40,000 cases and averages seven to 11 days for a toxicology report..." http://www.slate.com/id/2182156/

 

[Joe Friday]

So there's a few quick reasons to arrest the bad guy. On the other side of the coin, there is no real reason to delay an arrest if you have enough evidence to get an arrest warrant. In the case of a child killer the judge is going to deny parole, and despite the constitutional mandate of a speedy trial, that's a mighty subjective thing. Worst case, if the DA's office really isn't ready despite all the delays they can squeeze, well, you let him or her go at that time and rearrest them when you are ready. You can't be tried twice, but you can certainly be arrested twice.

SFS and BBM

Parole comes after a convict has served a portion of their sentence, given they are eligible for parole at the time of sentencing. I don't really see how denying parole comes into play on how fast someone should be arrested.

Perhaps you were thinking about "Bail". Bail would be the surety that is posted to ensure the person charge with the crime shows up for court.

What you are referring to as "squeeze" is called "Dismiss Without Prejudice".

JMO

 

[elmomom]

SFS and BBM

Parole comes after a convict has served a portion of their sentence, given they are eligible for parole at the time of sentencing. I don't really see how denying parole comes into play on how fast someone should be arrested.

Perhaps you were thinking about "Bail". Bail would be the surety that is posted to ensure the person charge with the crime shows up for court.

What you are referring to as "squeeze" is called "Dismiss Without Prejudice".

JMO

thanks for the info to help clarify.

Question, is it up to a judge to grant a dismissal without prejudice? What I mean is, if LE decided oops, we don't have enough evidence yet, is it a sure thing that they can just release said suspect and say, hey we'll be back for you in a few, as soon as we gather more evidence?

 

[MarthaM]

I'm hoping that they need the results of some specific test to determine conclusively whether this was a homicide or not, although this has been such a peculiar case that I'm not even betting my money on that. This long delay and limited information make me think that they didn't see a thing when they located her body that made them think it was definitely a homicide. I sure hope this doesn't become one of those cases where the family never knows, or doesn't learn for months or years, what really happened.

 

[Joe Friday]

thanks for the info to help clarify.

Question, is it up to a judge to grant a dismissal without prejudice? What I mean is, if LE decided oops, we don't have enough evidence yet, is it a sure thing that they can just release said suspect and say, hey we'll be back for you in a few, as soon as we gather more evidence?

Yes a motion would need to be filed by the DA or AG and the judge would need to either grant or deny the motion. I don't think you would find a judge that would deny that motion.

The judge is not going to make the state go forward with their case knowing that the state doesn't think they have enough evidence to get a conviction. Trials cost money.

Usually capital offenses like murder go before a grand jury to decide if there is enough evidence to charge the person and go forward with the case. It would be very unlikely for a DA or AG to file a motion for a dismissal without prejudice if a grand jury had returned an indictment.

JMO

ETA: To answer your question. Yes that is exactly what it means. They are going to dismiss the charges now and possibly refile them at a later time. That stops the clicking clock of justice. There are certain time limitations as to how much time can pass before the trial can start and how long before the trial has to start. Unless the defendant waives his or her right to a speedy trial.

 

[Bullwinkle]

Lots of people seem convinced that LE knows Celina was murdered, but LE refuses to say so. Why would they do this? What would they gain by not saying this is indeed a murder?

This is the way NH LE works.

They keep things under the hat until it goes to court. It helps them build a stronger case, if there is indeed a case.

Also, the less the public knows about a case, the easier it is to seat a jury, and it helps to minimize defense attorneys' complaints about their clients' right to a fair trial.

 

[cluciano63]

Also, the less the public knows about a case, the easier it is to seat a jury, and it helps to minimize defense attorneys' complaints about their clients' right to a fair trial.

I am sorry, but I do not believe that includes the rights of the community to know whether or not a death was a murder. They do not have to reveal anything else, but that much, I do believe they are obliged to release, if they know.

I don't believe they know. I think they know that, at the very least, her body was put into the river, but not how she wound up dead, whether it was an intentional act, an accident or natural causes, and someone chose to put her in the river and have her be "missing" instead of deal with consequences, if any.

 

[Wholehearted]

I am sorry, but I do not believe that includes the rights of the community to know whether or not a death was a murder. They do not have to reveal anything else, but that much, I do believe they are obliged to release, if they know.

I don't believe they know. I think they know that, at the very least, her body was put into the river, but not how she wound up dead, whether it was an intentional act, an accident or natural causes, and someone chose to put her in the river and have her be "missing" instead of deal with consequences, if any.

I feel like I might be overlooking something in the conversation here about the circumstances surrounding Celina's death, maybe because I'm not as familiar with the LE lingo.

Since JY stated that the body was placed in the water, and that the death was suspicious based on visual inspection, is it possible that a covered up accident would qualify as suspicious? I guess what I'm asking is, is JY assumed to be saying that the fact that Celina's was "placed" in the river--which implies she didn't put herself there-could be a covered up accident or homicide? Or just homicide?

I had assumed that the statements that Celina's death was suspicious, based on visual inspection, meant that she had been murdered. For example, I was imagining that they had seen Celina had been restrained, or some such thing.

I guess what it boils down to for me is, can JY deeming the circumstances suspicious encompass someone disposing of Celina's body after an accident? Or does it strictly mean that LE can tell me looking that harm was done to her in the process of how she died?

Long day, not sure if any of this makes sense, so I appreciate your patience!