Found Deceased NH - Celina Cass, 11, Stewartstown, 25 July 2011 # 7 *Arrest*

[HRCODEPINK]

I'm wondering if an autopsy can determine whether someone died of suffocation? Are there tell-tale signs? Since there was no obvious cause of death found during Celina's autopsy, I wonder if Celina might have died after she was wrapped in the blanket? Could she have still been alive even when she was lowered into the water - would the autopsy have shown unmistakeable signs of drowning, if so? Would there, perhaps, be more water in the lungs if a person died by drowning than if the body were submerged in water after death?

Anyone who can answer these questions, TIA.

The ME can usually determine quite easily if a person drowned. If a person drowns, the lungs are filled with water. If a body is placed in the water after death, no water in the lungs.

And yes, there are ways to tell if she was smothered or suffocated, including broken hyoid bone (if done with hands), bruising and petechial hemorrhages. They can't always tell, but often you can. However, I do not believe that there was not obvious signs *of death. I believe they know how she died.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Any idea why LN was pictured in a wheelchair? I saw a photo of her from January or so and she looked healthy, happy and standing.

After LN was questioned at the Command Center for 2 hours, she came out looking very distraught. Some time later, she was taken by ambulance for difficulty breathing and was released later that day with a wheelchair.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Do we have any confirmation that a helicopter was used to remove CC's body from the river?

I believe that in the pics and video, there are actually men pulling her up by rope. Not sure what the helicopter was used for.

 

[sreshowtime]

I know Pink....I remember mention somewhere of waiting on a Black Hawk, but do not recall why or for what. Unless it was bringing in some type of equipment??
And yes, the video does seem to show a group of men pulling a rope, and it was discussed here that it appeared to be rather heavy. ( I saw that too in MSM comments) Whether that was to the angle, or the actual weight, or combination, I do not know.

I think some were concerned about that 'weight' and were wondering if there was some sort of add'l items found that may have been used to weight the body down....

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Welcome to everyone even newer than i am!

The new questions about LN's covering herself with a blanket, and CC being found wrapped in blanket(s), remind me of reading that a killer known to his victim will often cover the victim's face or body post-mortem to try to depersonalize the crime. Hard to imagine that LN herself would have said or thought "I need to cover myself with a blanket," in her state of distress, even as a way to hide from the media. I would think she would simply have covered her face with one or both hands. And hard to imagine LE, even if they were friends with her, would have said "Cover the mom with a blanket to shield her from the media." So who might have thought of the blanket on LN? I'm just jarred by the irony, or maybe my coffee is too strong.

As for Facebook: CC had a FB page. I wonder how recently she had created it; I'm figuring fairly recently (summer fun type of thing). She might have checked out SF's very open FB for the first time and found the multitude of his so-to-say alluring female "friends," gotten upset, and confronted him or threatened to tell mom. The reaction to that very real threat would have elicited a very strong and angry reaction.

May be something as simple as she was in shock. She also kept the blanket on her lap in the wheelchair and while she was on the porch crying.

I'm out for a while. Have to go meet with the people on Shellie Carson's cold case. Hope to see good news when I get back, but I am thinking that the earliest we hear anything may be Tuesday, after the funeral.

 

[Hardymum]

OT- Odd you mention this, as there was a head on collision, police considered it a suicide attempt, as the driver at fault did commit suicide immediately after. It was in south NH the Tues evening after CC went missing if I recall...and the first thing I had thought was wonder if he had something to do with CC....

I just noticed this:

http://www.wmur.com/news/28786737/detail.html

on wmur. A high speed motorcycle chase in southern NH this morning just an hour or so ago, where the police chased two motorcyclists who ran off the road and into trees. Neither as yet identified. My immediate question was why such a serious pursuit of two motorcyclists, and why would motorcyclists evade the police to the point that they crashed and died?

Obviously no reason to think it's related, except that I've wondered if all of the people who were staying in the house have been accounted for and if not, where they are, and if LE have them under surveillance....I confess that I made a big what-if out of the news of this motorcycle chase and crash....

 

[sreshowtime]

Hardy- yeah some things can definitely make one go hmmmm...wonder who they were & where from.
I guess until there is resolution in this case, there is a lot of that hmmm going on.

 

[elepher50]

I believe that in the pics and video, there are actually men pulling her up by rope. Not sure what the helicopter was used for.

Yes, went back and looked and do not see a reference to a helicopter used in her recovery. Celina was discovered around 10am and was not removed from the river until just shortly after 5pm and no explanation regarding the delay in bringing her to the surface. Maybe there is photographic equipment on the blackhawk that was used to record the position and surrounding area in the underwater area. Dunno .......

 

[Hardymum]

In a rural area like Stewartstown, I doubt there's a single security camera anywhere in the area. Keep in mind that this is a sparsely populated area where many people leave their doors unlocked at night and keys in the car. I live in southern New Hampshire which is much more heavily populated and still there are plenty of people here who do the same.

Same here. I'm in western Mass due south of New Hampshire, and there are a lot of ppl in this area that don't lock, hide keys in obvious places, etc. There have been burglaries fairly recently where the perps have just walked right in and helped themselves. It's not like it "used to be".

OTOH, I'm from the Detroit suburbs and realized once when going back just how much more "alert" and on edge I became just because of the mindset.

BTW, I found Websleuths while following the Mariha Smith case. I just have to say that I'm finding myself comparing these two different cases. Poor baby Mariha was being raised in the virtual wasteland that the city of Detroit became after drugs came in; will LE continue to try and find her killer like they have for Celina? I hate to think a 5 year old african american baby's life is thought of as less important, and that maybe LE isn't giving the same attention that another child's killer might get.

Maybe I've gone on too much, but it's been bugging me!

 

[chief]

Well there was this :slapfight: which lead to this :bigfight: which lead to this :tos: and then some this :chillout: along with this :deadhorse: but there was occasional this :hug: and perhaps one or two of these :grouphug:

As far as the case goes, nothing new to report. Sorry!

Brilliant! Thank you.

 

[SuziQ]

Wow, looks clean, staple some sheets on the ceiling & throw a rug or two on the floor, put a mattress, maybe a dresser & what more could you ask for...did you by any chance look at the average income here in NH???

I think many are missing the point of the basement discussion. IMO the point is why were the girls moved to the basement so that a 23 yo man could have their room (or at least Celina's room) in a perfectly normal part of the house. And then you add that the girls were sleeping on air mattresses. We don't know the condition of the basement or if it even had heat, let alone able to be dolled up with sheets on the wall. I have a passion for old houses and look at ones for sale just for the heck of it. My DD loves them to and chooses them for rentals because of their craftmanship inside. However, most of these basements are not liviing spaces whatsoever. And they were never meant to be. IMO there is a good chance that the basement Celina slept in was not ideal. We just don't know yet.

Here is why I want answers about the basement. Were they being punished? Were they being put in their place? I don't know the answer. But I do know it is typical in child abuse cases for those children to be treated lesser than others in the family and made to sleep and live in less than ideal situations. Garages, tents, cold unfinished basements, etc. etc. I think the questions about the basement are valid and reasonable. JMO.

 

[Hardymum]

I sure hope the MSM will leave the town alone today...and let them have their festival in relative peace. But OTOH I hope LE is invisible in the background keeping an eye out, ya know?

The area I live in has a county fair that kids look forward to all year and a lot of little towns have harvest fairs, old home days, etc...I crack up at the kids and how they think about this stuff all year.... "Can so and so come to the fair with us this year?" and in the summer "can so and so and I trick or treat together?" etc. When you live in a small town these things are the social events and highlight of the year for the kids. I'm glad they didn't cancel, but I am sure that every year from now on thoughts will turn to Celina, and that the kids she would have hung out with will have her foremost in their thoughts. (eg, in 2013 Celina would have been 13, in 2015 thinking Celina would have been 15 that year). They won't forget her and I don't think it is disrespectful. The children in that tiny school and town have been traumatized, and I applaud the grownups for making the festival happen. It also sounds like they gave it a lot of thought in order to be respectful.

I also applaud her parents for attending. It is almost a d*'d if you do and d*'d if you don't situation. Some would say they should be home grieving, but if they were, others might say they were disapproving of the event....dunno, just some random thoughts.

 

[jjenny]

I'm wondering if an autopsy can determine whether someone died of suffocation? Are there tell-tale signs? Since there was no obvious cause of death found during Celina's autopsy, I wonder if Celina might have died after she was wrapped in the blanket? Could she have still been alive even when she was lowered into the water - would the autopsy have shown unmistakeable signs of drowning, if so? Would there, perhaps, be more water in the lungs if a person died by drowning than if the body were submerged in water after death?

Anyone who can answer these questions, TIA.

Again, nobody said there is "no obvious cause of death." Results are pending. There could be a very obvious cause of death, we just don't know it yet.

 

[Magdalyn]

Same here. I'm in western Mass due south of New Hampshire, and there are a lot of ppl in this area that don't lock, hide keys in obvious places, etc. There have been burglaries fairly recently where the perps have just walked right in and helped themselves. It's not like it "used to be".

OTOH, I'm from the Detroit suburbs and realized once when going back just how much more "alert" and on edge I became just because of the mindset.

BTW, I found Websleuths while following the Mariha Smith case. I just have to say that I'm finding myself comparing these two different cases. Poor baby Mariha was being raised in the virtual wasteland that the city of Detroit became after drugs came in; will LE continue to try and find her killer like they have for Celina? I hate to think a 5 year old african american baby's life is thought of as less important, and that maybe LE isn't giving the same attention that another child's killer might get.

Maybe I've gone on too much, but it's been bugging me!

fftopic: (me)

Did you see that someone was arrested yesterday re:Mariah Smith? Someone mentioned it here yesterday.

http://detnews.com/article/20110805/METRO01/108050386/Police-arrest-man-in-Mariah-Smith-slaying

 

[ecco]

As I said, she may have just gotten into FB recently. She didn't have that many friends or that much activity, IIRC. It might have dawned on her that night to look at friends of friends (rellies maybe) and she thus found SF. If we're all appalled, imagine how an 11 y/o would have felt. Kids view morality as an absolute; this person is way too close for her to find his page acceptable, IMO.

She was on FB since sometime last year.

 

[mck16]

fftopic: (me)

Did you see that someone was arrested yesterday re:Mariah Smith? Someone mentioned it here yesterday.

http://detnews.com/article/20110805/METRO01/108050386/Police-arrest-man-in-Mariah-Smith-slaying

I thought that I had seen that. And wasn't it the boyfriend of an aunt? tia

 

[matou]

Very good overview article of the case so far with good photos: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ro-seriously-ill-death.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

[PlainJaneDoe]

From gintana01:

I think we also need a culture where having kids is not just what people do, but something that people should put a lot of thought into before doing so, whenever possible. I don't think we have that right now.

I agree. I think that there are a lot of people who don't consider having kids to be a choice - it's something that "everybody does sooner or later," and the "choice" is when you want to have them. I wish that more people believed that "never" was a valid choice, too. :twocents:

 

[Magdalyn]

The area I live in has a county fair that kids look forward to all year and a lot of little towns have harvest fairs, old home days, etc...I crack up at the kids and how they think about this stuff all year.... "Can so and so come to the fair with us this year?" and in the summer "can so and so and I trick or treat together?" etc. When you live in a small town these things are the social events and highlight of the year for the kids. I'm glad they didn't cancel, but I am sure that every year from now on thoughts will turn to Celina, and that the kids she would have hung out with will have her foremost in their thoughts. (eg, in 2013 Celina would have been 13, in 2015 thinking Celina would have been 15 that year). They won't forget her and I don't think it is disrespectful. The children in that tiny school and town have been traumatized, and I applaud the grownups for making the festival happen. It also sounds like they gave it a lot of thought in order to be respectful.

I also applaud her parents for attending. It is almost a d*'d if you do and d*'d if you don't situation. Some would say they should be home grieving, but if they were, others might say they were disapproving of the event....dunno, just some random thoughts.

I agree. And I didn't get the impression that mom and dad went to party, eat cotton candy and ride the tilt-a-whirl. (not that anyone was assuming that). I thought there was a small ceremony to honor Celina at the opening of the festival, and that there were a few religious people (pastor/priest?) saying a few words to honor her and that they were simply there to see/hear Celina be honored, and I imagined they probably left after that. I'm sure it was painful and difficult, but I imagine they might regret if they didn't go to see/hear her be honored.

And not to be overly dramatic, but the dad is in heart failure. On top of that, he probably regrets what relationship he didn't have with Celina. I can imagine he's kicking his own @** right about now and will be present at anything that honors Celina as long as he's breathing to do it. Moo.

 

[concentric]

i am betting the farm that was one of the first things LE did...bet we will be seeing POI named after this weekend's festivities

Hope so. Reminds me of the Lindsey Baum case. There was a festival going on there as well.