NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 9

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  • #981
Thank you Scoop, that interview is really valuable. It doesn't look like Mrs. Mayotte really added up anything of her own, as witnesses use to do when recalling things happened long ago. It definitely points to the importance of the previous days in the disappearance of Maura.

The flashlight question is one I really wished James R would have figured out for his book! Perhaps I'm making too much about it, but since wife and I would run at night with flashlights - seems like her having one could really change things in this case!
It would also lend some creditability to the sighting that the contractor made of her being miles away from the crash on that fateful night...

We have the video of what it was like driving on the road to where she crashed on a winter's day after snow...
Would love to see a video made of someone running at night on that road with/without use of flashlight. It would be ankle twister/breaker without a light...

I've read before, can't recall where, about the non sense of Maura running from the car without a flashlight. But it is my understanding that weather conditions in Haverhill on the 9th February 2004 were of mostly clear and with almost full moon. That, added to the snow in the ground, that reflects the moonlight so allowing for a fairly good visibility, made it almost unnecessary the use of a flashlight to walk or run from the car IMO.
 
  • #982
I am (or better said, I was) subscribed to John Green's "Maura Murray Community" newsletter. In this morning' newsletter came only one article, entitled "LE source: Maura was alive and in Woodsville town center just before midnight on the 9th. By jag88". Below the title there was no other text than "This post is password protected. You must visit the website and enter the password to continue reading.". It has never before been necessary a password to read Mr. Green's website posts.

Anyhow, if you click on the link to the article or go directly to the website, a message says that "The Maura Murray Community" is closed permanently. Wow, the newsletter is from this same morning, has an article with an undoubtful interest, and the site have just been closed?

The only information I've found about the closure is this message from John Green at this link http://mmsavedinfo.wordpress.com, too short and vague of an explanation IMHO after such a sudden closure of his website.

Anyhow, does anyone know what the article was about?
 
  • #983
Thank you Scoop, that interview is really valuable. It doesn't look like Mrs. Mayotte really added up anything of her own, as witnesses use to do when recalling things happened long ago. It definitely points to the importance of the previous days in the disappearance of Maura.

I've read before, can't recall where, about the non sense of Maura running from the car without a flashlight. But it is my understanding that weather conditions in Haverhill on the 9th February 2004 were of mostly clear and with almost full moon. That, added to the snow in the ground, that reflects the moonlight so allowing for a fairly good visibility, made it almost unnecessary the use of a flashlight to walk or run from the car IMO.

Way back I had checked the moon charts - at time of accident, moon would not be overhead IIRC... till hours later.. she could have waited, but would it be bright enough?

Are you a runner? I mean that in friendly way.. When wife and I ran on winter's nights, even though there were some street lights, just can't see road surface well enough... stones kicked up after plowing, slippery spots, etc..
Also tall trees each side of road...

Worse sometimes when snow banks such they reflect light up into your eyes, but not really down onto road to light it up... messes up vision by the actually diminishing night vision...

Of, course in the state she was in, was she thinking about injury or just making a run for it, which could be possible.. but if we knew for sure there was a flashlight and she took it, that would be an amazing clue.
Not knowing, it's all anyone guess...
 
  • #984
Way back I had checked the moon charts - at time of accident, moon would not be overhead IIRC... till hours later.. she could have waited, but would it be bright enough?

Are you a runner? I mean that in friendly way.. When wife and I ran on winter's nights, even though there were some street lights, just can't see road surface well enough... stones kicked up after plowing, slippery spots, etc..
Also tall trees each side of road...

Worse sometimes when snow banks such they reflect light up into your eyes, but not really down onto road to light it up... messes up vision by the actually diminishing night vision...

Of, course in the state she was in, was she thinking about injury or just making a run for it, which could be possible.. but if we knew for sure there was a flashlight and she took it, that would be an amazing clue.
Not knowing, it's all anyone guess...

Thank you for the reply, you made good points. I'll have to check for the moon position at the crash time.

I'll never run at night while snowed, I live in the south of Spain and at my town we've had only 4 days snowing in the last 10 winters, and it was a very light snow, so imagine. But there are many forests very close to my town and I even have a small house "in the middle of the wild"', and my wife and I have come out to walk at night many times, and usually when it was close to full moon it was more than enough for walking, although maybe not for running. Of course, ideal is to carry a flashlight, but you know, sometimes you make virtue out of necessity and if Maura felt that she needed to flee from the crash scene the amount of light maybe was more than enough.
 
  • #985
Thank you for the reply, you made good points. I'll have to check for the moon position at the crash time.

I'll never run at night while snowed, I live in the south of Spain and at my town we've had only 4 days snowing in the last 10 winters, and it was a very light snow, so imagine. But there are many forests very close to my town and I even have a small house "in the middle of the wild"', and my wife and I have come out to walk at night many times, and usually when it was close to full moon it was more than enough for walking, although maybe not for running. Of course, ideal is to carry a flashlight, but you know, sometimes you make virtue out of necessity and if Maura felt that she needed to flee from the crash scene the amount of light maybe was more than enough.

Sounds really nice in Spain!

Of course, all I say about the flashlight and running are just my own speculation... I don't want to discourage other opinions.
 
  • #986
When I saw the circumstances to me it seemed so very obvious what happened.

Maura was going to meet someone for a rendezvous. A romantic one.

This is an interesting and plausible narrative. It seems to me, though, no complicated explanation is required for a college student to take a trip on short notice. When I was that age I did not have as many exciting romantic trips as T9D. But I did react more to things that happen in life. It wouldn't have taken much to make me go on some trip on short notice. You certainly wouldn't need a complex explanation as to why I would buy alcohol, even in large bottles b/c of the lower unit cost.

I agree with those who say taking a capricious trip is something many people do every day. The unexplained disappearance is the issue.
 
  • #987
This is an interesting and plausible narrative. It seems to me, though, no complicated explanation is required for a college student to take a trip on short notice. When I was that age I did not have as many exciting romantic trips as T9D. But I did react more to things that happen in life. It wouldn't have taken much to make me go on some trip on short notice. You certainly wouldn't need a complex explanation as to why I would buy alcohol, even in large bottles b/c of the lower unit cost.

I agree with those who say taking a capricious trip is something many people do every day. The unexplained disappearance is the issue.

It could of course be a romantic trip. The fact that there was no phone record or email found in her computer to that supposed "partner" could be explaned due to Maura taking extra measures if the relation was an "under the radar" kind. She could have arranged everything with her partner via a prepaid phone card.

In the previous days of Maura's disappearance, she sought for information on Stowe (Vermont) and also for information on how to rent a condominium in Bartlett (New Hampshire). What this two places have in common (amongst other things) is that they are good places for go hiking, close to the highest peaks of Vermont and New Hampshire respectively. Maybe she was going hiking with someone?
 
  • #988
What this two places have in common (amongst other things) is that they are good places for go hiking, close to the highest peaks of Vermont and New Hampshire respectively. Maybe she was going hiking with someone?

Yes. There were also rural get-away spots that she had some familiarity with. It would be like someone in my area renting a cabin in Door County to get away for a few days-- very normal.

Do you suspect there is some connection between her disappearance and the reason for her trip?

My guess:
It sounds to me like she was sipping an alcoholic beverage our of a soda bottle on her way to a cabin. The purpose of her trip was probably to get away from it all for a few days but maybe to meet a secret friend. She crashed on the icy roads. She wasn't sure she was under the legal limit for alcohol. She definitely was guilty of operating a vehicle with an open container. So she dumped alcohol out and left the car, intending to avoid contact with the police until the alcohol wore off. If she could find a hotel, she could sleep it off there. Failing that, if she could find a restaurant, she could sober up in a few hours. Even a cup of coffee from a gas station might keep her warm and help her get herself together enough to get out of the area without being accused of DWI. She set off down the road looking for one of these options, but there's nothing out there-- it's rural.

At this point she met someone sketchy offering he a ride. The sketchy person is welcome because someone who looks conservative and strictly law-abiding might feel compelled to tell the police of someone leaving the scene of the accident. The shock of the accident, fear of criminal charges, and the effect of alcohol on judgement caused her to get in a car with people she never would have trusted under ordinary circumstances. When they learned she was sort-of avoiding the police b/c she left the scene of an accident and she was somewhat intoxicated, they had a perfect victim. If they ever had a notion of committing murder, rape, or kidnapping, this was a clear opportunity.

One thing I cannot understand about such a scenario is how they would have let her have access to a phone and if she had secret access but couldn't talk, only whimper, how did she enter tall the calling car numbers without her captors catching her.

This is pure guessing from someone who doesn't even know all the facts. I'm trying to understand how the reason for her trip could have affectd her disappearance.
 
  • #989
The flashlight question is one I really wished James R would have figured out for his book! Perhaps I'm making too much about it, but since wife and I would run at night with flashlights - seems like her having one could really change things in this case!
It would also lend some creditability to the sighting that the contractor made of her being miles away from the crash on that fateful night...

We have the video of what it was like driving on the road to where she crashed on a winter's day after snow...
Would love to see a video made of someone running at night on that road with/without use of flashlight. It would be ankle twister/breaker without a light...

I'm with you on the flashlight. Wish I knew if she had one or not. That area is pitch black at night.
 
  • #990
Yes. There were also rural get-away spots that she had some familiarity with. It would be like someone in my area renting a cabin in Door County to get away for a few days-- very normal.

Do you suspect there is some connection between her disappearance and the reason for her trip?

My guess:
It sounds to me like she was sipping an alcoholic beverage our of a soda bottle on her way to a cabin. The purpose of her trip was probably to get away from it all for a few days but maybe to meet a secret friend. She crashed on the icy roads. She wasn't sure she was under the legal limit for alcohol. She definitely was guilty of operating a vehicle with an open container. So she dumped alcohol out and left the car, intending to avoid contact with the police until the alcohol wore off. If she could find a hotel, she could sleep it off there. Failing that, if she could find a restaurant, she could sober up in a few hours. Even a cup of coffee from a gas station might keep her warm and help her get herself together enough to get out of the area without being accused of DWI. She set off down the road looking for one of these options, but there's nothing out there-- it's rural.

At this point she met someone sketchy offering he a ride. The sketchy person is welcome because someone who looks conservative and strictly law-abiding might feel compelled to tell the police of someone leaving the scene of the accident. The shock of the accident, fear of criminal charges, and the effect of alcohol on judgement caused her to get in a car with people she never would have trusted under ordinary circumstances. When they learned she was sort-of avoiding the police b/c she left the scene of an accident and she was somewhat intoxicated, they had a perfect victim. If they ever had a notion of committing murder, rape, or kidnapping, this was a clear opportunity.

One thing I cannot understand about such a scenario is how they would have let her have access to a phone and if she had secret access but couldn't talk, only whimper, how did she enter tall the calling car numbers without her captors catching her.

This is pure guessing from someone who doesn't even know all the facts. I'm trying to understand how the reason for her trip could have affectd her disappearance.

I just follow the instincts of maura's father who believed his daughter came up to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself.

Maura's father was the last person to spend any quality time with maura. I am quite certain, he would have a feeling for what kind of state of mind she was in just the day before she went missing.
 
  • #991
I'm with you on the flashlight. Wish I knew if she had one or not. That area is pitch black at night.


It interesting in that considering all the effort put into this case that no one has ever done a video of what it would be like on a similar winter's night with same moon phase - a kind of reconstruction of the scene.

Would the river appear as a frozen field that she might have tried to walk on and gone thru the ice?

Would one house or something else stand out such as a distant light that would have attracted her to head for?

Would the road be as non-runnable without a flashlight as I believe? Maybe even try running it without a light..
 
  • #992
This is an interesting and plausible narrative. It seems to me, though, no complicated explanation is required for a college student to take a trip on short notice. When I was that age I did not have as many exciting romantic trips as T9D. But I did react more to things that happen in life. It wouldn't have taken much to make me go on some trip on short notice. You certainly wouldn't need a complex explanation as to why I would buy alcohol, even in large bottles b/c of the lower unit cost.

I agree with those who say taking a capricious trip is something many people do every day. The unexplained disappearance is the issue.

While I do not necessarily believe that the reason for Maura's trip directly ties to her disappearance, Scoops's interview with her supervisor, and this comment, have me looking at both sides of things.

I was struck by just how upset Maura's supervisor described her to be. I can't help but wonder, after paying closer attention to that interview, if her state of mind may have had something to do with what happened. Even if she did not initially set out to commit suicide, she was upset enough beforehand to make it easy to see how she could have become so upset, especially with the added alcohol factor, to do something stupid after the wreck.

2 things I'll try to say quickly, as they are personal stories. I promise I only mention them because I am using them to help sort through all this:

First of all, one thing I know about suicide, from having a close family member who has attempted suicide over 10 times (both overtly as well as "accidentally"), is that it's not always so cut-and-dried. Sometimes it's hard to define whether or not a person is "suicidal". From what I've seen, sometimes people just really don't know what they're doing, haven't decided whether or not they really want to harm themselves, may or may not actually have it planned out, and more than anything are confused. For example, my family member has slit his wrists a couple times. Once was more of a cry for help, and once was a real attempt. But there have been other times that he "accidentally" overdosed, or overdosed but "didn't mean to hurt himself" but rather wanted to escape pain. Who knows.

2nd story (and I'll tie these in later), has to do with me and goes along with the post I quoted. When I was 26 and thought I had outgrown the impulsivity and random drives out to the middle of nowhere, I found myself going on a trip that I could see as being similar to Maura's. I was "talking" to a guy, and when things went wrong with us I impulsively rented a car and took off for his hometown in another state. I had a roommate at the time who had no idea anything was even wrong or that I had done this. I went there without telling him and had no plan. I didn't even have plans to see him. It just felt like the right thing to do in my chaotic state of mind. I remember researching the area just like Maura did, even though once I got there I had no idea why I was there exactly. Anything could have happened, especially since I was already upset. Looking back I could see myself (especially if I had had alcohol in my system, although I didn't) doing a number of things: I'm not clinically crazy by any means, but I could see myself crashing my car as a half-hearted attempt at help or attention, I could see myself crashing out of exhaustion, or if anything had gone even more wrong between us I could have even turned suicidal and crashed for that reason. If I crashed accidentally, I could have become even more upset and done something stupid that I had not initially set out to do. Or I could have tried to make it to his house out of instinct one way or another, even in the car with a stranger, and who knows what could have happened from there. Just like with Maura, nobody knew where I was, and I didn't want them to, so it's hard to say how I would have handled that.


I guess my point in that whole shpeel was to say that Maura may not have really had an exact plan or known what she was doing there. I don't think it's as easy as some of us think to predict whether or not her intention was to commit suicide. That's something that can change in an instant, one way or the other, with someone unstable. But one thing I have realized is that I DO think that her state of mind is a factor that needs to be taken into consideration. And I didn't used to think so. I'm not saying that what became of her is directly related to the reason for the trip, but the fact that she was so upset would, I believe, greatly affect how she handled the car wreck situation. We just don't know in what way.
 
  • #993
I just follow the instincts of maura's father who believed his daughter came up to the white mountains to do personal harm to herself.

Maura's father was the last person to spend any quality time with maura. I am quite certain, he would have a feeling for what kind of state of mind she was in just the day before she went missing.

MM's dad only made the "old squaw" remark once, when he first met local LE, and it seemed an offhand remark.... CMIIW, he's retracted it saying he does not believe she went there for that purpose, no?
 
  • #994
Respectfully snipped:
On the cracked windshield
I don't believe Maura hit her head at all. Airbags in fact can often crack windshields from the inside when deployed. My mother was in a head-on wreck with an oil rig (long story) and her airbag that popped out of her steering wheel actually cracked the windshield when it deployed. Police found no evidence of Maura's head hitting the windshield. not one drop of blood was found and nothing of Maura's hair found in the windshield

I do think that there's a possibility that Maura hit her head. If she wasn't wearing her seatbelt, then her head could have hit the windshield above the impact of the airbag causing the crack at the top of the windshield (see: ADAC - Crashtest without seat belt - YouTube). A head injury doesn't always leave blood and hair -- just think about a concussion.

I think it's a very strong possibility that she suffered a head injury, became disoriented, got lost in the woods, and succumbed to the elements. It's not as sensational as the other theories, but IMO it's very logical.
 
  • #995
Respectfully snipped:


I do think that there's a possibility that Maura hit her head. If she wasn't wearing her seatbelt, then her head could have hit the windshield above the impact of the airbag causing the crack at the top of the windshield (see: ADAC - Crashtest without seat belt - YouTube). A head injury doesn't always leave blood and hair -- just think about a concussion.

I think it's a very strong possibility that she suffered a head injury, became disoriented, got lost in the woods, and succumbed to the elements. It's not as sensational as the other theories, but IMO it's very logical.

I agree, and while there were searches, I've seen cases when despite lots of searches, a person just isn't found till time later when someone happens by accident to find something..

One case - Molly Bish, biggest search in MA history IIRC found nothing. Then a lone hunter found year(s)? later what turned out to be her swimsuit...
So would not surprise me if one day something is found.
 
  • #996
Respectfully snipped:


I do think that there's a possibility that Maura hit her head. If she wasn't wearing her seatbelt, then her head could have hit the windshield above the impact of the airbag causing the crack at the top of the windshield (see: ADAC - Crashtest without seat belt - YouTube). A head injury doesn't always leave blood and hair -- just think about a concussion.

I think it's a very strong possibility that she suffered a head injury, became disoriented, got lost in the woods, and succumbed to the elements. It's not as sensational as the other theories, but IMO it's very logical.



It's possible her head still hit, but there isn't solid evidence to support it. So we are just guessing. But I would agree, that if she hit her head, it could cause some disorientation, however, she had enough wits to be able to brush off the school bus driver when he mentioned the police.
 
  • #997
MM's dad only made the "old squaw" remark once, when he first met local LE, and it seemed an offhand remark.... CMIIW, he's retracted it saying he does not believe she went there for that purpose, no?

That is Fred's version of how things went down, but not really necessarily the truth.

Sharon Rausch (kept a detailed journal of all goings on in those early days of when Maura went missing and family showed up in New Hampshire) and she relayed the account of fred telling his children that if he ever felt worthless in life, that he would grab some alcohol and head for the mountains (meaning that is where his kids could find him). So this was the actual discussion going on between fred, Sharon and investigators, not some random mention of a squaw from a movie doing a squaw walk.

And he worried that maybe there was something to that when it came to what Maura was doing.

according to Maura's older sister's then boyfriend, In those early days of searching for maura, Fred had also pointed towards the mountains and said that is where they will find Maura, up there dead, drunk and naked.

Now granted, Maura's older sister's boyfriend may have some credibility issues, but I highly doubt he would make something that off-the-wall up.

Finding someone's body at a high elevation naked sounds very unusual, but not so much when it comes to hypothermia. A symptom of hypothermia (even despite the body being extremely cold) is that a person begins to develop a burning sensation and their instincts are to strip off clothes. Someone impaired by alcohol and going through hypothermia could easily find themselves going through paradoxical undressing.
 
  • #998
It's possible her head still hit, but there isn't solid evidence to support it. So we are just guessing. But I would agree, that if she hit her head, it could cause some disorientation, however, she had enough wits to be able to brush off the school bus driver when he mentioned the police.

I agree that there isn't solid evidence to support it, but there's also not solid evidence to rule it out (which is unfortunately the issue with most of the theories about Maura).

At one point, I started searching for other people who went missing after car accidents, and there are actually quite a few. Many of them ended up being located in water sources nearby (they ran from the scene and stumbled into a river, etc.). Many others were not found. I forget the specific cases, but I remember that a few folks acted "normal" (talking reasonably, calling friends, etc.) before they went missing. I wonder if it could take a while for the symptoms of the head injury to "kick in".
 
  • #999
That is Fred's version of how things went down, but not really necessarily the truth.

Sharon Rausch (kept a detailed journal of all goings on in those early days of when Maura went missing and family showed up in New Hampshire) and she relayed the account of fred telling his children that if he ever felt worthless in life, that he would grab some alcohol and head for the mountains (meaning that is where his kids could find him). So this was the actual discussion going on between fred, Sharon and investigators, not some random mention of a squaw from a movie doing a squaw walk.

And he worried that maybe there was something to that when it came to what Maura was doing.

according to Maura's older sister's then boyfriend, In those early days of searching for maura, Fred had also pointed towards the mountains and said that is where they will find Maura, up there dead, drunk and naked.

Now granted, Maura's older sister's boyfriend may have some credibility issues, but I highly doubt he would make something that off-the-wall up.

Finding someone's body at a high elevation naked sounds very unusual, but not so much when it comes to hypothermia. A symptom of hypothermia (even despite the body being extremely cold) is that a person begins to develop a burning sensation and their instincts are to strip off clothes. Someone impaired by alcohol and going through hypothermia could easily find themselves going through paradoxical undressing.

The "dead, drunk and naked" comment is very strange. If FM was talking like that to folks, I'm surprised that no one reported it to the authorities.
 
  • #1,000
I agree that there isn't solid evidence to support it, but there's also not solid evidence to rule it out (which is unfortunately the issue with most of the theories about Maura).

At one point, I started searching for other people who went missing after car accidents, and there are actually quite a few. Many of them ended up being located in water sources nearby (they ran from the scene and stumbled into a river, etc.). Many others were not found. I forget the specific cases, but I remember that a few folks acted "normal" (talking reasonably, calling friends, etc.) before they went missing. I wonder if it could take a while for the symptoms of the head injury to "kick in".

In my experience as a sports reporter that has been on the sidelines moments after someone has been concussed. They are very quickly disorientated and often times, they are unaware of even where they are at the moment.

Maura was able to dump/hide some alcohol, tell the SBD she didn't need his help that she had already called for help (AAA) and she was able to grab her backpack, take some items with her while leaving others behind and secure her car, before leaving the scene.

She was involved in a lot of things at once that involved thinking and to me she comes off as someone that is fully alert and not wanting to be found at that particular moment.
 
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