NM - French tourists dead, child rescued at White Sands

[mpoinar]

[h=2]Heat Stroke[/h]Heat stroke is the most serious heat-related illness. It occurs when the body becomes unable to control its temperature: the body’s temperature rises rapidly, the body loses its ability to sweat, and it is unable to cool down. Body temperatures rise to 106°F or higher within 10 to 15 minutes. Heat stroke can cause death or permanent disability if emergency treatment is not provided.


Signs and Symptoms of Heat Stroke
Warning signs vary but may include the following:
• An extremely high body temperature (above 103°F)
• Red, hot, and dry skin (no sweating)
• Rapid, strong pulse
• Throbbing headache

• Dizziness
• Nausea

more at link: http://patch.com/california/burlingame-hillsborough/can-you-recognize-heat-emergency-0


Apparently, this couple died of heat stroke. My daughter experienced heat exhaustion, which is a milder form a couple of weeks ago.

Hi, I wanted to add a little bit of information to this thread that I just found. My husband and I live 45 miles from White Sands and moved to Las Cruces in 1989.

What I first noticed when I read about this tragedy was no one ever said anything about the temperature in the sun. The 100 degrees was the temperature we were registering in the shade that day, not the sun. The shade temperature today is 97 degrees so I just put the thermometer in the sun on the ground outside and within 10 minutes it was registering 123.5 degrees! I can barely make it outside to my mailbox daily and back (250 feet each way) in this heat!

We who live here know better than to go hiking when it's that hot anywhere in the afternoon and this is a long hike in the hot burning sun. Apparently the French couple did not realize this. I wish that they had been warned when they entered White Sands and had not been permitted to take this hike. It makes me very sad and I can certainly see why the couple didn't last long. I'm glad the boy survived though.

 

[EllieBee]

Just wanted to clarify that I don't think it's enforceable to keep people out during the heat. IIRC, it's not like Muir Woods, where there is an entrance gate and you pay an admission fee. I think these trailheads are straight off the parking lot. I've never heard of any desert keeping people out when it's hot, and who would determine what temperature meets that criterion? It's different for everybody, and Arizona heat (dry heat) feels way different than humid heat. In fact, I can tolerate higher heat in Arizona than California because it's drier.

It was 103 here today, indices between 108 and 110.

I had only a few errands to run which required minimal exposure to the heat and relentless sun. And I came home with a throbbing headache, dehydrated, exhausted. And I habitually drink at least 2 quarts of water daily.

I swim, run and cycle. But I know when the heat is a threat and find ways to exercise safely, out of the deadly heat.

Three people, TWO 20 oz water bottles? Really? That makes no sense even when you go for a hike in 75 degree weather with 40 percent humidity. But when it is 110 degrees and what, 9 percent humidity? Nuh uh. Not buying it.

Something ain't right, here.

 

[wendybtn]

That's problematic right there- even tourists from France should know that that's the hottest part of the day, no matter where you are! Insane to go hiking in the desert between 1-3 in the afternoon, even if you had tons of water!!

I visited Arizona in May 1996. It was not even tolerable to sit in the pool with your own water bottle at that time of day. I cannot imagine hiking in July/August at that time of day. To take a child out in that scorching heat and Sun is just an incredibly poor choice.

 

[wendybtn]

Thats true, but they could put a fence around the parking area at the trailhead, with gates, so they could close the trail at certain times, of the day. At very least I think they could use better warning signs. I would probably use something like "WARNING Extreme temperatures, no shade, no water. Be prepared. People have died on this trail from the extreme conditions."

But people always think that that sign, rule, warning is for someone else, not them! It is a trick our brains play on a lot of people every day.

 

[Ladylub]

Just wanted to clarify that I don't think it's enforceable to keep people out during the heat. IIRC, it's not like Muir Woods, where there is an entrance gate and you pay an admission fee. I think these trailheads are straight off the parking lot. I've never heard of any desert keeping people out when it's hot, and who would determine what temperature meets that criterion? It's different for everybody, and Arizona heat (dry heat) feels way different than humid heat. In fact, I can tolerate higher heat in Arizona than California because it's drier.

I am opposite of you I can tolerate humidity a bit better then dry heat. I always say I feel like a fish out of water here in TX.

 

[al66pine]

Thats true, but they could put a fence around the parking area at the trailhead, with gates, so they could close the trail at certain times, of the day....

sbm

Close trail? Sounds like it could be a good idea. Trying to envision how this wd work.

At certain times of day, in certain seasons,regardless of temp?
So, even on days when temp is 70 degrees, rangers close trails anyway? At 70 deg. hikers can still run into probs, like lightening or blowing sand that obscures visibility of next post showing trail path. {ETA: How pick time of day?}

Or close trails when a given temp reached?
At noon when temp rises to magic temp, rangers drive from HQ or Vis Center the 8 mi. to Alkali Flat trailhead.
A family who drove into facility a few hrs earlier just arrived at trailhead, ready to sign in. Rangers turn them back?
Then rangers examine register/log, see that 10 other groups, signing in at 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, 11:00, 11:30, are out on trail, so may be a short distance from trailhead or midway on loop. Twenty five vehicles are parked in lot.

Do rangers start walking trail to herd them in? Blow a whistle, yell for all to return, hope everyone hears over the 5 mi trail?
Do rangers lock pedestrian gate to prevent ppl on trail in the heat from returning to cars? Do they wait for all named on log?
Send drones to locate hikers?
After everyone registered on trail log returns to lot and is 'checked off' by rangers, do they wait for others to straggle in?
Seven vehicles are still in lot, indicating not all hikers registered. What then?
Do other rangers repeat this for all other trails? What about back-country campers, if any?

Whether we're talking about ^ these relatively small numbers or hundreds or thousands, does not seem workable, jmo.
Maybe it works in a small area, like an elementary school playground, where teachers-aides-et al can see entire property/facility and herd kids in. For national parks or monuments, not so much, jmo, but I could be all wrong.

{ETA: Maybe I'm envisioning this all wrong way and there's a better, more workable way to accomplish this. Anyone?}


_______________________________________________________________________

Hours, May 24 to September 5: "... entered from 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Visitors must exit by 9:00 p.m."
from http://www.nps.gov/whsa/index.htm
"Download our Hiking brochure or click the links below for a description of the trails: "The Alkali Flats Trail"
"Length: 5 miles (8 km) round-trip Average Completion Time: 3 hours Difficulty: Strenuous"

 

[SophieRose]

I think White Sands National Monument needs signs like they have at Grand Canyon. I know the signs made us think as to how much water to take and how far down we would hike.

Various warning signs at Grand Canyon
http://www.onesixtyk.com/wp-content/gallery/grand-canyon-9-2012/dsc_1715aa.jpg
http://www.npexp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/P1210525.jpg
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-no...jury-related-deaths-on-the-lava-71084412.html

 

[al66pine]

I think White Sands National Monument needs signs like they have at Grand Canyon. I know the signs made us think as to how much water to take and how far down we would hike.

Various warning signs at Grand Canyon
http://www.onesixtyk.com/wp-content/gallery/grand-canyon-9-2012/dsc_1715aa.jpg
http://www.npexp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/P1210525.jpg
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-no...jury-related-deaths-on-the-lava-71084412.html

Sophie Rose,
Agreeing w you that these ^ are helpful at Gr-Cyn and would be appropriate at White Sands & other facilities too.

I wonder what the White Sands signs are like, maybe just like these^?
IDK, have not bn there in a few yrs. From visits there, I'm quite sure some warning signs are posted at trailheads.

 

[wfgodot]

Signage. There is no semiotic equivalent for common sense; no fingerpost can point one there.

 

[SophieRose]

Sophie Rose,
Agreeing w you that these ^ are helpful at Gr-Cyn and would be appropriate at White Sands & other facilities too.

I wonder what the White Sands signs are like, maybe just like these^?
IDK, have not bn there in a few yrs. From visits there, I'm quite sure some warning signs are posted at trailheads.

I posted a picture earlier of the signage at White Sands. Here is a video of the Alkali Flat trailhead and the two signs the tourist encounters. Not as strong a warning as those at Grand Canyon.

[video=youtube;zYYtMWA7RZw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYYtMWA7RZw&spfreload=10[/video]

 

[Donjeta]

Three people, TWO 20 oz water bottles? Really? That makes no sense even when you go for a hike in 75 degree weather with 40 percent humidity. But when it is 110 degrees and what, 9 percent humidity? Nuh uh. Not buying it.

Something ain't right, here.

Is that what the boy said or what was found on them? they might have discarded some empty bottles along the way if they had more

 

[KaaBoom]

sbm

Close trail? Sounds like it could be a good idea. Trying to envision how this wd work.

At certain times of day, in certain seasons,regardless of temp?
So, even on days when temp is 70 degrees, rangers close trails anyway? At 70 deg. hikers can still run into probs, like lightening or blowing sand that obscures visibility of next post showing trail path. {ETA: How pick time of day?}

Or close trails when a given temp reached?
At noon when temp rises to magic temp, rangers drive from HQ or Vis Center the 8 mi. to Alkali Flat trailhead.
A family who drove into facility a few hrs earlier just arrived at trailhead, ready to sign in. Rangers turn them back?
Then rangers examine register/log, see that 10 other groups, signing in at 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, 11:00, 11:30, are out on trail, so may be a short distance from trailhead or midway on loop. Twenty five vehicles are parked in lot.

Do rangers start walking trail to herd them in? Blow a whistle, yell for all to return, hope everyone hears over the 5 mi trail?
Do rangers lock pedestrian gate to prevent ppl on trail in the heat from returning to cars? Do they wait for all named on log?
Send drones to locate hikers?
After everyone registered on trail log returns to lot and is 'checked off' by rangers, do they wait for others to straggle in?
Seven vehicles are still in lot, indicating not all hikers registered. What then?
Do other rangers repeat this for all other trails? What about back-country campers, if any?

Whether we're talking about ^ these relatively small numbers or hundreds or thousands, does not seem workable, jmo.
Maybe it works in a small area, like an elementary school playground, where teachers-aides-et al can see entire property/facility and herd kids in. For national parks or monuments, not so much, jmo, but I could be all wrong.

{ETA: Maybe I'm envisioning this all wrong way and there's a better, more workable way to accomplish this. Anyone?}


_______________________________________________________________________

Hours, May 24 to September 5: "... entered from 7:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Visitors must exit by 9:00 p.m."
from http://www.nps.gov/whsa/index.htm
"Download our Hiking brochure or click the links below for a description of the trails: "The Alkali Flats Trail"
"Length: 5 miles (8 km) round-trip Average Completion Time: 3 hours Difficulty: Strenuous"

I would say probably close the trail at noon, and yeah, go out and round up anybody who is still out. Then reopen it at 7PM for some evening hikes. At least in the summer months. People just shouldn't be out there at that time of the day.

 

[KaaBoom]

I think White Sands National Monument needs signs like they have at Grand Canyon. I know the signs made us think as to how much water to take and how far down we would hike.

Various warning signs at Grand Canyon
http://www.onesixtyk.com/wp-content/gallery/grand-canyon-9-2012/dsc_1715aa.jpg
http://www.npexp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/P1210525.jpg
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-no...jury-related-deaths-on-the-lava-71084412.html

Yes, like that. It should be multi-language too.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I am opposite of you I can tolerate humidity a bit better then dry heat. I always say I feel like a fish out of water here in TX.

I'm with you, Lady. There are times here in the Tropics where the humidity is high & fans are blowing that it feels a tad chilly! Humidity is good for the skin but bad for the hair!

 

[Nova]

The couple planned an entire itinerary for a U.S. visit, then took so little water on a hike which began in stifling temperatures? Odd.

Unfortunately it isn't really odd at all. Here in the Southern California desert, we have several hiking deaths per year: most die with a lovely view of Palm Springs and all of our lovely, green palm trees. (There are a lot of hiking trails on the mountain above us; from there, the village seems close when the trail to get here is many miles in length.)

We get a lot of European tourists in the summer who walk the streets during the middle of the day when I am huddled near the a.c.

And, yes, we have warnings everywhere: on TV, in hotel rooms, at the entrance of trails, etc. But I have to admit the first time I visited here we inadvertently went hiking (got on a trail at the zoo that was much longer than we expected) until I was so dehydrated my skin fell off my arms in layers. As they tell us here repeatedly: by the time you feel thirsty, you are ALREADY dehydrated.

***

Re closing trails, we have rangers that close trails during wildfires, but otherwise I think shutting down a park in the middle of the day is an unreasonable restriction on an experience the very aim of which is to experience nature without a lot of human interference. The problem is we are too cheap to hire enough rangers to inform people properly at the beginning of trails.

We have several trails here that are owned and run by the local Indians. (Agua Caliente Band of the Coachella Tribe.) Their trails are always in excellent condition and each begins at a souvenir shop where a HUMAN BEING warns you about conditions on the trail, how much water you need to carry and how long you can reasonably be outside. IIRC, they have had few if any deaths on their trails. The deaths here usually occur in the National Forest area.

 

[KDR2 PGH]

And here's that thread, for those playing along at home:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ib-61-Sangre-de-Cristo-Mountains-13-June-2015

This thread about WH chef has been removed unfortunately. As have the local news articles linked below about circumstances. An article from 2017 named the couple and explained some circumstances, like how they believe that David & Ornella Steiner both died but their 9yr old kid could have survived. David and Ornella Steiner - Disturbing deaths in U.S. deserts — StrangeOutdoors.com

 

[marathonboats]

We need to clear that information in real live because the news may be some different in real facts.

 

[thesassmachine]

In a way they were idiots whose deaths were inevitable because they thought the warning signs were for ‘other people’ but during the agonising hours of their deaths they were also heroic: children succumb to heat stroke and death far more easily than adults do.
The parents must have really valiantly ignored their own immense thirst to ensure junior got all the available water, at some point they most probably stopped partaking of their one sip rations and quietly gave in to dying whilst telling junior to keep only sipping the water and not waste a drop. That’s the only way I can imagine a young child surviving the same conditions that killed his parents.
Bless their souls.