No English Required

[BhamMama]

...the comments on people spouting off about "immigrants"...we are ALL immigrants...

I would really like to hear a Native American poster's point of view on this...

You just did lol I'm Kiowa and Cherokee. Yes, I am a Scottish, Native American Jew. I'm not only hot tempered, I'm prone to large amounts of guilt over it as well

Not much impact on the Cherokee front. I'd be lying if I said the Kiowa weren't feeling the pinch. They are typically farmers that will 'share-crop' if you will. Now there is no incentive for share cropping as farmers can hire migrant workers who will get the job done faster and do it cheaper. That goes from farming to cutting timber.

Most younger Kiowa are moving away. Which is sad on many levels. They don't have the family connections to learn cultural traits, they leave behind the elders who have no one to care for them, they become isolated and bitter towards many groups of people.

The Kiowa are not a large nation so this trend is def working towards diluting the blood line as of course most who leave dont marry a Kiowa spouse.

But like I said, not totally their whole fault. There are other answers but many don't have the education to fight it.

 

[Karole28]

Yes, which says nothing at all about how many slaves the North had versus the South. Especially since a historian such as yourself should know that slaves in the North were used in manufacturing, which was concentrated in cities, and slaves in the South were used in agriculture, which is spread all over.

Did you read the link? At all?

Want me to find 5 more for you to ignore?

 

[Nova]

Can you imagine how maddening it is to know that most people get their history from Schoolhouse Rocks, and the Dukes of Hazard? It's the height of ignorance. The South has always been ok to denigrate. Wanna stereotype someone? Pick anyone south of the Mason Dixon line. They're fair game. Wanna talk about ANY other segment of society? Hands off.

Karole, I was raised more than 1,000 miles South of the Mason Dixon line. All of my schoolteachers were Southerners.

Yes, the stereotyping of Southerners is often unfair, but there are plenty of Southerners who help to perpetuate the stereotypes.

There is no question that Northerners were quite complicit in the slave trade. Molasses to slaves to rum and all that Triangle Trade jazz. But that's not to say that by the time of the War Between the States (I'm deliberately using the Southern term) in the SEVENTH decade of the 19th century, there were more slaves in the North than in the South.

Yes, Southern wealth was highly concentrated among a relative few. But that doesn't mean those few didn't use the threat of "out-of-control blacks" to manipulate the rest (just as they still do today, witness the recent senatorial election in Tennessee).

 

[BhamMama]

Not, by the way, that it matters how many slaves the North had, when they were banning slavery - obviously those slaves were no longer slaves at that point (at least, not legally). And the South was emphatically NOT banning slavery. That's a big difference - changes the North's total to zero.

Actually, the Emancipation Proclamation didn't cover Northern States. Just the states or part of the states still in rebellion. It didn't cover much of Louisianna and Virgina either since they were held by federal troops and it didn't cover the border states of Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky and Missiouri. Of those only parts of Kentucky are considered the south. It didn't cover them, even though they owned slaves, because most of their residents stayed loyal to the union. All of them retained slavery until the 13th amendment was passed.

So all of the Northen states held their slaves, even after the Emancipation Proclamation. As a matter of fact, Delaware held slaves until Dec 1865. 7 months after the end of the civil war. They fought over and rejected the 13th admendment.

And as an aside, the United States Flag flew over slavery 89 years, the confederate flag, 4 years. Does it make either of them right?

 

[Karole28]

Yes, the stereotyping of Southerners is often unfair, but there are plenty of Southerners who help to perpetuate the stereotypes.

Like whom?

There is no question that Northerners were quite complicit in the slave trade. Molasses to slaves to rum and all that Triangle Trade jazz. But that's not to say that by the time of the War Between the States (I'm deliberately using the Southern term) in the SEVENTH decade of the 19th century, there were more slaves in the North than in the South.

The term is the War of Northern Aggression.

 

[2sisters]

So how bout them immigrants? I saw your link barngoddess. I can only hope the company will be help accountable too. The great thing about illegals working for you is the ability to pay them next to nothing and get away with it. Who are they going to complain to?I highly doubt farmers that hire them for migrant work pay them 10 bucks an hour. Construction work, the boss will bring in 4000$ roughly to gut a home. What do the mexican workers get from that? probably about 100$ for the whole job.

The language thing. Lets say a mexican immigrant's child is missing. The mother calls police. They can't understand her, no translator available. What will happen? Go to a hospital for an injury, how will the non english speaking injured explain their situation, medical history etc. to the nurse?

 

[BarnGoddess]

Of course Indentured Servants were very big in the North. How long did it take to buy yourself from this servitude? Some of those who paid their way to the US weren't the kindest of "masters". How many freed slaves went North seeking their fortune and returned to the South? Quite a few.

I am privileged to have a book written by a distant cousin containing the letters the family has saved and passed down written by my great uncle to his family back in New Orleans.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781931123273&itm=1

Edith McDonald, the editor, was also looking for our common cousin after Katrina. We couldn't locate her then. She sent me the book.

None of the letters mention slaves. They were about needing items and receiving items from home. Things needed like boots and coats and where they were and who died and who was sick. James Edward was also held prisoner by the North. He wrote and received letters while imprisoned. Some of the letters home mention letters to and from his brother, Henry Clay Weymouth, my great grandfather who was also serving in the military. As an interesting aside in the book (and family lore), Jane, their mother (my great great grandmother was English. She was the daughter of a British ship captain. When the Yankees tried to take over their house in New Orleans, she wrapped herself in the Union Jack and declared that her home was British soil. They left her and the home alone. To my knowledge, the family at that time held no slaves.

Please note that as a British sea captain, trade was conducted with the South at the time. If (without researching it now) I remember, "King Cotton" was traded and blockades were run against this trade between the South and Great Britain.

 

[Details]

Did you read the link? At all?

Want me to find 5 more for you to ignore?

You posted what you wanted to from the link, and I said (from the rest of my post that you chose to ignore... ) that it didn't prove or come close to proving anything about the relative number of slaves between the North and South, even at that time. And it doesn't. It's a very typical use of statistics to lie, to say that the North had more slaves in X and Y cities than the South did in A and B cities, so the North had more slaves than the South. And you know that's not true. If Los Angeles has fewer people in it than New York city, does that mean that the population of New York is higher than that of California? If you want to make a statistical point, make it with real stats.

 

[Nova]

Like whom?

Oh, please. Pretty much every congressman or governor elected since WWII.

But if you need famous names, how 'bout William Faulkner, Tennessee Williams and Flannery O'Connor? (More or less my 3 favorite authors, BTW.)

 

[Nova]

What are we arguing here? There are many ways to prove (if anyone still has doubts) that slavery was very much an American institution. Try our Constitution to begin with.

That doesn't mean there were more slaves in the North than in the South in 1860 (even if one counts Border States as Northern). There weren't. But what does it matter?

 

[windovervocalcords]

What are we arguing here? There are many ways to prove (if anyone still has doubts) that slavery was very much an American institution. Try our Constitution to begin with.

That doesn't mean there were more slaves in the North than in the South in 1860 (even if one counts Border States as Northern). There weren't. But what does it matter?

This thread blows my mind.

I never gave the Civil War much thought until moving to Kentucky from the east coast in 1971. I lived there just a couple years but knew and lived with many people from the Southern states (in a dorm)

What I was aware of was the issue of the South losing the Civil War was still a sticking point with many people I met and got to know.

I don't claim to understand the South or the Civil War or all there is to know about racism.

I did participate in a wonderful program in Kentucky called "Project Understanding" which was very healing for me. It was an educational program designed to increase tolerance and friendship between races and class and was sponsored by the Louisville council on religion and race.

I had gone to a high school that had been recently integrated and there were race riots every year. We had riot cops in uniform out front of my Long Island high school until I graduated.

 

[Nova]

The Civil War is the central event in the historical myth of the South. No question it remains important in Southern thought in a way it isn't in the thinking of Northerners. The different was losing (the war and the "Reconstruction" that followed).

But there is also no question that racism has been a problem in the North as well as the South.

 

[windovervocalcords]

The Civil War is the central event in the historical myth of the South. No question it remains important in Southern thought in a way it isn't in the thinking of Northerners. The different was losing (the war and the "Reconstruction" that followed).

But there is also no question that racism has been a problem in the North as well as the South.

I agree. That's why I put my experience in my nothern high school in contrast to my college experience in the South. I actually became more comfortable with African Americans when I lived in the South.

 

[Nova]

I agree. That's why I put my experience in my nothern high school in contrast to my college experience in the South. I actually became more comfortable with African Americans when I lived in the South.

I saw that. I was seconding the thought.

Old Southern expression I first heard in Tallahassee:

"In the South, whites don't care how close blacks get, as long as they don't get too high. In the North, whites don't care how high blacks get, as long as they don't get too close."

Gross generalization, of course. But there's some historical truth in that saying.

 

[windovervocalcords]

I saw that. I was seconding the thought.

Old Southern expression I first heard in Tallahassee:

"In the South, whites don't care how close blacks get, as long as they don't get too high. In the North, whites don't care how high blacks get, as long as they don't get too close."

Gross generalization, of course. But there's some historical truth in that saying.

Ouch. A painful one.

 

[Nova]

Ouch. A painful one.

Indeed.

 

[Penelope631]

I think it was Nova who asked about Spanish test in NY..well here is a list of links I have found for foreign language written driving test hand books..I would think that if the handbooks are available in foreign languages then the test are also..

CA
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/pubs.htm

FL
http://www.lowestpricetrafficschool.com/handbooks/

NY
http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/spanishhome.htm

just to list a few.....

 

[Nova]

I think it was Nova who asked about Spanish test in NY..well here is a list of links I have found for foreign language written driving test hand books..I would think that if the handbooks are available in foreign languages then the test are also.

I imagine you are right, Penelope. But I think we're better off having knowledgable drivers, no matter the language they have to learn in. (And I realize this standard doesn't apply to everything.)

 

[txsvicki]

...more specifically...



...reminds me of...

"Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan"... but hey...

This doesn't make any sense to me. I know nothing about Kazakhstan.

 

[Sally]

This doesn't make any sense to me. I know nothing about Kazakhstan.

Even if you did, it makes no sense.