No English Required

[czechmate7]

...fly the Confederate flag...LOL

Yanno, when you people talk about "Middle Easterners", you really need to be more specific...I am an Armenian person; there are also Middle Eastern people from Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Palestine, Israel, some also count Morocco and Libya (in North Africa)...And, as far as Arabic people go, there are Muslim Arabs of various groups ranging from moderate to extreme, there are Chaldeans (Christian Arabs), Coptic Christians from Egypt, Jews, etc. So when you talk about "Middle Eastern" people, who are you talking about...Please be more specific...

As far as the Confederate flag goes...It would be the same as flying the flag of the Third Reich in my opinion...It's not cute, or funny, and while it is historical, I think that many find it offensive...

It's funny, about Middle Easterners....I traveled to Saudi Arabia and Israel and the whole 5 months there I NEVER had a problem communicating IN ENGLISH (well, maybe an instance here and there). The people were more than happy to attempt to communicate in English and never made me feel that I should learn the language to fit in.
Now, I also traveled to Spain; don't know if they were having fun with a little ole' American girl, but the majority of the people seemed to enjoy watching me struggle to get things out in the very little Spanish I did know.
Of course, I'm talking about their country (which is not the topic, really) but giving you an idea on the nationally of people I've run into.
As far as the Confederate flag....IMO, it really depends on the part of the country you live in on how the whole thing is interpreted. I was born/raised in Louisiana and lived in all points of the US (East, S.West, NEast and South) and everybody takes it a different way.

 

[Karole28]

The confederate flag came to be because the the south wanted to maintain control over Blacks and the south wanted to keep them as slaves, so they "broke away" from the northern states and made their own flag, and even called themselves the Confederate States of America, or something like that. They wanted to keep Blacks as slaves and have Blacks spend their lives serving the white man.

Please, dear God, read some history before you try and have a discussion.

:banghead:

 

[windovervocalcords]

julianne's assessment is not that far off. The flag we called the confederate flag was made to allow the southern states to distinguish themselves from the northern states in battle during the civil war. It's a BATTLE flag and for some a signal today that the battle is not over and the South will rise again.

The civil war was fought over slavery. Which was the economic life of the south with its plantations.

In the collective memory of white southerners the failure of their forebears to win the independence of the Confederate States of America is known as the Lost Cause, and the Beauregard battle flag is the most enduring symbol of that cause. In the receding memories of the Confederate veterans, who adopted it as their official insignia, the battle flag was the soldier's banner, not the colors of the Confederacy.

To African-Americans, the Beauregard battle flag is also a symbol of the Lost Cause and a reminder that their freedom was won only because the cause was lost. To blacks the flag was the emblem of slavery carried by soldiers in a war to maintain it, and the icon of hooded night riders who terrorized and firebombed their fathers and grandfathers in the name of white supremacy.
http://mshistory.k12.ms.us/features/feature2/histconflag.html

 

[Marstan]

Once again: how do you know this?

Nova, I know this because I live very near the border. My children go to school with the children and I meet the parents. If I did not actually experience it first hand, I would not comment, unless I was doing statistics. I am not being sarcastic. I have been in the emergency rooms, courts, and schools in my area and I suppose the way I know this is because I experience it every day.

 

[czechmate7]

Nova, I know this because I live very near the border. My children go to school with the children and I meet the parents. If I did not actually experience it first hand, I would not comment, unless I was doing statistics. I am not being sarcastic. I have been in the emergency rooms, courts, and schools in my area and I suppose the way I know this is because I experience it every day.

IMO~
Marstan~ I totally agree with you that experience; living with people on a daily basis is so important to understanding their ways, habits, etc...
Stats don't mean squat when there are many who aren't even "on the radar" because of legal reasons.
I lived in Houston for 2 years and was around the mexican culture everyday; on TV, radio, billboards, in the grocery store, in schools, workplace, on the freeway....IMO, you're comment is right on!!

 

[windovervocalcords]

Nova, I know this because I live very near the border. My children go to school with the children and I meet the parents. If I did not actually experience it first hand, I would not comment, unless I was doing statistics. I am not being sarcastic. I have been in the emergency rooms, courts, and schools in my area and I suppose the way I know this is because I experience it every day.

I'd like to hear more about your experience. Certainly you are encountering a large hispanic population in your community. What I am not clear on is how it is you can be so certain the people you are encountering have no need nor interest in speaking english?

I would think it possible some folks come here to work and return to Mexico. I would imagine if they are able to find work where minimal language skills are required they would do so.

The part I do not agree with--and forgive me if you are not the poster who is saying this--is that people are arrogantly refusing to connect with english speaking americans. Perhaps, it seems so, but I have a hard time with anecdotes measuring "numbers of the arrogant".

Arrogance abounds in our culture. How very American of the immigrants.

What comes across in some posts, not necessarily yours, is an anger and resentment some posters feel toward the hispanic workers coming across the border. It sounds like bias--as if the mere sound of spanish being spoken raises the hairs on the back of some necks.

When people say stats matter less than personal experience they forget that facts are more reliable than perception. We see the world through the limitations of our biases and we all have them.

 

[2sisters]

Maybe the people who don't want to learn the language are only here short term. maybe they just are here doing some tempororay work and never plan to stay here and stuff happend, then years later they are still here. Could also be that they can't even read or write their language, so how possible could they learn english? I can't have a solid veiw on this b/c I don't live in an area with a large immigrant population. I only come in contace with Mexican construction workers here being pawns to the construction industry.I did however live in New Orleans and the vietnamese population there busted butt to lean the language but also held onto their heritage and spoke vietnamese in their circles.

 

[Marstan]

I'd like to hear more about your experience. Certainly you are encountering a large hispanic population in your community. What I am not clear on is how it is you can be so certain the people you are encountering have no need nor interest in speaking english?

I would think it possible some folks come here to work and return to Mexico. I would imagine if they are able to find work where minimal language skills are required they would do so.

The part I do not agree with--and forgive me if you are not the poster who is saying this--is that people are arrogantly refusing to connect with english speaking americans. Perhaps, it seems so, but I have a hard time with anecdotes measuring "numbers of the arrogant".

Arrogance abounds in our culture. How very American of the immigrants.

I think the problem here (and I did not use the word) is the use of one word "arrogant." Perhaps arrogant is the wrong word, or is it? I suppose it is the mind of the reader to focus on just one word out of almost 200 posts.

When I drive to the border to go to Mexico to shop, the majority of the shopkeepers speak English. If not fluently then at least to where I can communicate with them about what I want. This is what I have found and is my opinion only - the US dollar is green (although now it has other colors) and when I go to Mexico to shop, the Mexicans are making a living off of the green I spend. They have adjusted their lives in order to speak English so they can make a living in Mexico. The new people at the counters have limited English skills so they assign someone to work with them until they are fluent enough to work on their own. The ones that want to work are willing to learn English. It is their choice and in Mexico there is no welfare system to feed and clothe and house anyone who is not willing to work.

Many come to the US where they are given free money, food, housing and medical and it perpetuates in a huge growing circle. I suppose the feeling that they are arrogant may stem from the fact that while they are in Mexico they are more than willing to speak English to make a living, but when many of them come to the US, they don't seem quite so willing because we supply interpreters when they go to the welfare office. I am being sarcastic and I am generalizing, however, statistics will show this information. By the way, we did vote and declare English as our official language in AZ. It keeps slipping through the cracks for some reason, our schools are overloaded and getting into an emergency room is probably almost as scary as going to the post office this time of year!! More people are required to be bi-lingual (Spanish/English no other languages count) in order to get a job in most SW states - what about our elders who cannot speak two languages and they were born here, should they be forced to speak another language in their own country?

 

[czechmate7]

I'd like to hear more about your experience. Certainly you are encountering a large hispanic population in your community. What I am not clear on is how it is you can be so certain the people you are encountering have no need nor interest in speaking english?

Wind~ Wouldn't you agree, though, that someone who is exposed to a certain culture of at least 50% or more of the population of their community would be more experienced on the habits, etc... of that particular culture?
Take for instance, the Mexican people; wouldn't someone who lives in a border town have a little more insight on what the mexican people are like then say someone who lives in Chardon, Ohio? I don't think it's to say "this is how all Mexican people are" but you can get a better insight when you live with them and interact with them every day.
Thoughts?
ps...I say Chardon, Ohio because I have lived there and know there are very few mexican folks living there.

 

[windovervocalcords]

I think the problem here (and I did not use the word) is the use of one word "arrogant." Perhaps arrogant is the wrong word, or is it? I suppose it is the mind of the reader to focus on just one word out of almost 200 posts.

When I drive to the border to go to Mexico to shop, the majority of the shopkeepers speak English. If not fluently then at least to where I can communicate with them about what I want. This is what I have found and is my opinion only - the US dollar is green (although now it has other colors) and when I go to Mexico to shop, the Mexicans are making a living off of the green I spend. They have adjusted their lives in order to speak English so they can make a living in Mexico. The new people at the counters have limited English skills so they assign someone to work with them until they are fluent enough to work on their own. The ones that want to work are willing to learn English. It is their choice and in Mexico there is no welfare system to feed and clothe and house anyone who is not willing to work.

Many come to the US where they are given free money, food, housing and medical and it perpetuates in a huge growing circle. I suppose the feeling that they are arrogant may stem from the fact that while they are in Mexico they are more than willing to speak English to make a living, but when many of them come to the US, they don't seem quite so willing because we supply interpreters when they go to the welfare office. I am being sarcastic and I am generalizing, however, statistics will show this information. By the way, we did vote and declare English as our official language in AZ. It keeps slipping through the cracks for some reason, our schools are overloaded and getting into an emergency room is probably almost as scary as going to the post office this time of year!! More people are required to be bi-lingual (Spanish/English no other languages count) in order to get a job in most SW states - what about our elders who cannot speak two languages and they were born here, should they be forced to speak another language in their own country?

That is a thoughtful response. Thank you. The other question I have is when people who live near a large population of folks who speak spanish and don't choose to learn some spanish, would they also be considered arrogant?

The word arrogant is a big deal to me. So is the assumption that people who move here from Mexico do not have interest in learning to speak english because there are spanish interpreters available.

I come to this perspective as a person who has worked with the poor most of my life. If there weren't interpreters I would have been lost a long time ago because of all the different cultural groups I have worked with. I could not have learned all those languages to help people.

My feeling is people are all the same. Some good, some not, and most of us a combination.

 

[Karole28]

julianne's assessment is not that far off. The flag we called the confederate flag was made to allow the southern states to distinguish themselves from the northern states in battle during the civil war. It's a BATTLE flag and for some a signal today that the battle is not over and the South will rise again.

The civil war was fought over slavery. Which was the economic life of the south with its plantations.

This is utter horsesh*t.

Nobody believes the "South will rise again" nonsense. Most in the south were too poor to own slaves, and were their own slaves in the fields. There were more slaves owned in the northern states than in the southern.

And indeed, the war was not about slavery (Lincoln didn't care overly much one way or another about this issue). It was about the South not wanting their tax dollars spent on Northern cities while they were left to rot. (See Cananda modern age).

Jeezus. This self perpetuating myth is SOOOO old.

 

[cappuccina]

Karole, I know that you put me on "ignore" *wink, wink*, but here is an artikel four yoo, summmarrizin' the hisstoree of the American Civil War...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

 

[2sisters]

Can we cool it a little and not attack? Jeez.

Cap, I don't know what you meant by your mispelled post, if it was some kind of insinuation that southerners are stupid, or if it was just intened for Karole. I sure hope that was not your intent. Someone as smart as you shouldn't buy into stereotypes and myths that all southerners are stupid rednecks.

 

[Marstan]

Karole, I know that you put me on "ignore" *wink, wink*, but here is an artikel four yoo, summmarrizin' the hisstoree of the American Civil War...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

From the site above:

The causes of the war, the reasons for its outcome, and even the name of the war itself are subjects of lingering controversy even today. The main results of the war were the restoration and strengthening of the Union, and the end of slavery in the United States.

Cappa:

"Controversy" is the key word here. LOL

 

[Marstan]

Can we cool it a little and not attack? Jeez.

Cap, I don't know what you meant by your mispelled post, if it was some kind of insinuation that southerners are stupid, or if it was just intened for Karole. I sure hope that was not your intent. Someone as smart as you shouldn't buy into stereotypes and myths that all southerners are stupid rednecks.

I am a "redneck" and frankly I like it. :croc:

 

[cappuccina]

..I have a prob. with Karole

The Southerners I know are deeply offended by those who are "into" flying the Confederate flag, and they are not trying to rewrite history, or say that Lincoln did not care...

Actually, the Southerners I know who had relatives in the Confederate Army talk about the heartbreak of their family being torn apart, as they also had relatives in the Union army.

I will remove the language that offends you, I meant no harm to those from the South...OK, I won't remove the language, since it's now been quoted...I was trying to imitate someone who was drunk, or high, actually...

 

[czechmate7]

..I have a prob. with Karole

The Southerners I know are deeply offended by those who are "into" flying the Confederate flag, and they sure do not try to rewrite history, or say that Lincoln did not care...

Cap...I don't know many Southerners offended...I guess that just goes to show how even people from the same area can see things so differently.

 

[2sisters]

..I have a prob. with Karole

The Southerners I know are deeply offended by those who are "into" flying the Confederate flag, and they are not trying to rewrite history, or say that Lincoln did not care...

Actually, the Southerners I know who had relatives in the Confederate Army talk about the heartbreak of their family being torn apart, as they also had relatives in the Union army.

I will remove the language that offends you, I meant no harm to those from the South...OK, I won't remove the language, since it's now been quoted...I was trying to imitate someone who was drunk, or high, actually...

Don't remove anything, I just was curious what you meant by it. My husband had family that fought for the Confederacy but they did not own slaves. They fought just b/c they were fighting for the south, not b/c they wanted slaves. As karole said, many in the south didn't own slaves, they couldn't afford it. i quite frankly don't fly the falg b/c I see no need to but to some it is heritage and a tribute to those that fought and died, for all they knew, the Cofedeacy would make it as a country and they fought. Same with the people who fought in the revolution. They may fail, but if their new country was a sussess then they could down the road say they fought to make their new land happen.

 

[cappuccina]

...absurd, at best...It's like the folks who say the Holocaust didn't exist...

I think you will find many Southerners who are embarassed by the whole "Confederate" thing, just like there are Germans who are deeply ashamed of the Nazi era during WWII. The folks tha I know are not embarassed to be Southern, and love their culture and part of the US, they just are not into the Confederate flag flying thing...

Just as Northerners should be embarassed by the overt segregation that still exists in Detroit and Chicago...

Certainly Lincoln had a conscience and was deeply troubled by many issues surrounding the Civil War...

I don't appreciate it when people try to rewrite slavery (people who say that slavery was not an issue during the Civil War) and genocide (people who say Holocaust did not exist) to fit their bigoted agenda...I have very little tolerance for it.... (unless the person is a bona fide paranoid schiz. or something...)

 

[cappuccina]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism)