No English Required

[Nova]

It is actually something more like - I demand we have a Mexican speaking Websleuths. I am sure there a lot of Mexicans who would like to join us in our discussion, but can't because of the language barrier...

but you were very close!!! lol

In fairness, poco, I doubt 2 can find a web-translator that translates from your particular (and rather eccentric) dialect of Spanglish.

 

[BarnGoddess]

Without quoting anyone. I stated that some Latinos in Miami are extremely arrogant about their language. I have tried to shop downtown and had clerks absolutely refuse to speak English to me. I tried to explain that I "habla Espanol muy poco" (help me out here POCO) and needed help. Once as I was leaving a store in frustration, I was called a name that I did understand in Spanish followed in English by "Stupid Gringa". It was an attitue that Nova alluded to. New people move in and the old timers are now made to feel as if they were intruders.

There are quite a few Mexicans and those of Mexican descent right here in my small town and the countryside. Most speak English well and first and second generation Americans speak fluently and without an accent. Most are friendly, outgoing and very well assimilated into the community. They participate in all activities offered.

 

[windovervocalcords]

Without quoting anyone. I stated that some Latinos in Miami are extremely arrogant about their language. I have tried to shop downtown and had clerks absolutely refuse to speak English to me. I tried to explain that I "habla Espanol muy poco" (help me out here POCO) and needed help. Once as I was leaving a store in frustration, I was called a name that I did understand in Spanish followed in English by "Stupid Gringa". It was an attitue that Nova alluded to. New people move in and the old timers are now made to feel as if they were intruders.

There are quite a few Mexicans and those of Mexican descent right here in my small town and the countryside. Most speak English well and first and second generation Americans speak fluently and without an accent. Most are friendly, outgoing and very well assimilated into the community. They participate in all activities offered.

Rudeness is an equal opportunity experience. So is arrogance. Generally, the majority group has the bigger arrogance.

Is downtown predominately hispanic area? You may have had an experience that many non-english speaking folks has also.

So much anger english speaking americans have toward immigrants. They must immediately speak english.

Look at Mr Cheesesteak in Phillie.

 

[Nova]

Rudeness is an equal opportunity experience. So is arrogance. Generally, the majority group has the bigger arrogance.

Is downtown predominately hispanic area? You may have had an experience that many non-english speaking folks has also.

So much anger english speaking americans have toward immigrants. They must immediately speak english.

Look at Mr Cheesesteak in Phillie.

I believe BG is talking about an area of Miami known as "Little Havana." It isn't exactly "downtown" but somewhat close by. It was predominantly Cuban when I left town 29 years ago. Of course, with the rise of the Cuban population, she could be talking about a lot of parts of Miami.

What you want to say, BG (if you encounter people who are speaking Spanish) is: "Perdoname, no hablo espanol. Habla usted ingles?" ("Pardon me, I don't speak Spanish. Do you speak English?")

It isn't a magic phrase and there will always be rude people, but that phrase or the equivalent in the local language have worked for me all over the Americas and Europe. But what you said in the incident you describe should have been good enough.

 

[reb]

i think being forced to accept everybody at any cost without being able to speak your mind is more of a danger to our society than anyone's xenophobia. i don't have a problem with anyone unless they come here and want to turn it into another country, not obey our basic laws and basic rules of living, or cause trouble.

nova- my point is it should be mandatory for EVERYONE working at airports to be able to speak the same language. it's a safety issue. but, since the economy in texas (and increasingly, everywhere else)- is SO dependent on ILLEGAL labor so they can pay the lowest wages they can possible get away with- to people who will work 12 hours a day, inclusing weekends, and not ask for benefits or complain, then this will be keep being done. and as long as people will keep making a racial issue out of it, they will deflect from the real issue-- violations of labor rights. they figure since they're not legal citizens and can't speak english, they can get away with treating them like slave, and paying slave wages. and that's one less job for an american citizen who can speak english, and who wants to work for a decent living wage and enjoy the types of labor rights that many have worked and fought so hard for.

 

[Pepper]

If your requirement has been in place in the past, Pepper, we would have 3 groups of people in this country: the English and their descendants, the descendants of black slaves and (a few) Native Americans. Maybe a few Latinos, but most of them might have been forcibly exiled to Mexico.

The USA would be a poorer, and certainly duller, place.

Learning a language takes years. Few immigrants could or can wait that long to earn a living.

Nope, disagree with you here Nova. Learning a language does not take years. Most could get by in a matter of months. I was in Germany for a month once, and was amazed at how much I picked up. If I'd been immersed, I would have learned decent conversational German in less than 6 months.

My husband's mother was German, born in Germany but immigrated at a very young age. His grandparents immigrated as adults. They spoke German and English fluently. My grandparents were Norwegian immigrants. All spoke English and had jobs where speaking English was required to get by.

English is the universal language of airline pilots. English is the universal language of foreign trade - INCOTERMS.

I greatly admire people who are multi-lingual, and I certainly wish I were fluent in several languages. But I absolutely believe that anyone coming into this country expecting employment and citizenship should learn English.

 

[Penelope631]

...than you ever will...

My "immigrant" grandparents on my Dad's side spoke, wrote and read the following languages:

Armenian, Turkish, Arabic, English, and French... (also, some Russian) I have a copy of my Grandfather's rare2 volume set of "Les Miserables" that is in both French and Armenian...not bad for a guy whose parents were farmers in the Caucusus mountains...

On my Mom's side: German, Polish, Russian, Yiddish, and English

Most Americans whose families have been here for hundreds of years don't even have a decent grasp of English...

I speak, read and write, English and French fluently, and know something in the following languages: Russian, Armenian, Polish, German, and Italian...

So, just knock off the bashing of the immigrants who don't speak English very well crap; I'm really getting sick of it...

Well I am Mexican and I dont speak spanish other then a few words and I would like for the immigrants coming from the south to learn English if they want to be living and working here in America..I think it is our right as AMERICAN BORN CITIZENS that others coming to our country to live and work to at least make an effort to learn how to communucate with us..My grandparents and aunts and uncles who came from Mexico ALL made an effort to learn English.

IMHO!!!

 

[reb]

bravo penelope!! and my grandfather came from germany, and learned english all by himself- as have so many others.
i would never expect to move to another country and not be expected to speak their main language.

btw... if we call those who have a healthy sense of outsiders 'xenophobic'-- then what do you call people who come to the US, live here, hang up flags from their home country (but NOT the US flag along with it), reject the culture, and are "exclusive" to the society in which they now live? is there a word for that? just curious.

 

[reportertype]

Several years ago, a jetliner crashed in NY. It was coming in from South American, I forget which country. Basically, there were huge backups and the pilots from SA kept being told to circle. They tried to tell the control tower they were low on fuel but couldn't seem to get the severity across. They eventually ran out of fuel. The crash was blamed partially on language problems. But of course, the whole place seemed to be in complete chaos. Obviously a universal language can come in handy.

I wish the US did a better job of teaching language. I wish I'd had the chance to start learning others when I was a tot instead of in high school. It's easy to ignore them when they appear to be an ocean away and you can't just hop on a train and go to another country. (At least for most of us.)

Speaking of which, I'm going overseas next year. Which programs are good for learning other languages? I've heard Rosetta Stone is good. Anybody tried it?

 

[Pepper]

Nearly all immigrants do try and most do learn quite a bit. Every once in awhile a son or daughter of immigrants (usually Chicanos) decides to speak only the parents' tongue. And it gets a lot of press here. Then economic reality sets in and the kid goes back to speaking English.

I work at a company that employs many Mexicans, the majority of which are not legal immigrants. I can name several that have been here more than 10 years, and do not speak a word of English. Some even own homes here and vote.

ETA: Since there is generally a waiting period of 1-5 years to immigrate here LEGALLY, there is time enough to learn some basic English communication skills.

 

[cappuccina]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)

xen·o·pho·bi·a /[zen-uh-foh-bee-uh, zee-nuh-] –noun

an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

[Origin: 1900–05; xeno- + -phobia]

—Related forms

xen·o·pho·bic, adjective

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - xen·o·phobe (zěn'ə-fōb', zē'nə-)

n. A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

xen'o·pho'bi·a n., xen'o·pho'bic adj.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

xenophobic adjective
suffering from xenophobia; having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign



I wouldn't call this a "healthy sense of outsiders", hon...

Oh, and reb, most Americans are so spoiled, including young high school-aged kids, that they will not do any of the jobs you see recent immigrants doing...

It is a myth that recent immigrants cleaning public toilets, roofing in subzero termperatures, scrubbing floors and cleaning up human and animal are taking away "plum" jobs away from other Americans...puhleeze...another neocon myth...

 

[Pepper]

Well I am Mexican and I dont speak spanish other then a few words and I would like for the immigrants coming from the south to learn English if they want to be living and working here in America..I think it is our right as AMERICAN BORN CITIZENS that others coming to our country to live and work to at least make an effort to learn how to communucate with us..My grandparents and aunts and uncles who came from Mexico ALL made an effort to learn English.

IMHO!!!

Brava!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Details]

There's a big problem with everyone learning other language - which one? The only way people can communicate is for everyone to know one common language. And here, in America, that common language is English. Moving in here, then demanding the majority speak your language or forget it is the height of arrogance - worse than being a tourist and expecting everyone to speak your language is actually moving in somewhere, and expecting an entire country to change to suit yourself.

I do think English should be named the official language. That doesn't mean others can't be spoken, doesn't mean that really anything needs to change, just that a simple fact should be recognized. I don't like the idea that a business can say, No English here, in our country, but really, that's up to the business. But English is the language of America.

And, yes, there are far too many who not only make no effort to speak the language, but form communities that exclude English, exclude the majority of Americans.

I agree - it should be mandatory for everyone in an airport to be able to communicate with each other, period. No translators, no segragation into branches of an airport, if any emergency happens, or simply for day to day efficiency, communication is essential.

 

[cappuccina]

Thanks!

Here is my data:

The Top 10 Immigration Myths, including the about folks not wanting to learn English y'all have been talking about:

http://www.immigrationforum.org/documents/TheJourney/MythsandFacts.pdf

(See #s 5 & 6)...

Then let's see some information from y'all refuting this...Muchas gracias!!

Oh, and the data cited above is mainly from US government sources...

 

[Details]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)

xen·o·pho·bi·a /[zen-uh-foh-bee-uh, zee-nuh-] –noun

an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

[Origin: 1900–05; xeno- + -phobia]

—Related forms

xen·o·pho·bic, adjective

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - xen·o·phobe (zěn'ə-fōb', zē'nə-)

n. A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

xen'o·pho'bi·a n., xen'o·pho'bic adj.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

xenophobic adjective
suffering from xenophobia; having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign



I wouldn't call this a "healthy sense of outsiders", hon...

Oh, and reb, most Americans are so spoiled, including young high school-aged kids, that they will not do any of the jobs you see recent immigrants doing...

It is a myth that recent immigrants cleaning public toilets, roofing in subzero termperatures, scrubbing floors and cleaning up human and animal are taking away "plum" jobs away from other Americans...puhleeze...another neocon myth...

Xenophobia doesn't rely on you being the majority or minority - a xenophobic person is xenophobic no matter what country they live in.

It's a myth that people won't do these jobs. They just won't do them at the extreme low wages that have developed by employers exploiting illegal workers. There was that town that got rid of it's illegals - population plummeted, a factory lost a ton of workers.... and stayed open by raising their wages enough to attract legal, citizen workers, who were quite happy to have the work!

 

[cappuccina]

...thousands of jobs being lost in the auto industry, and people will still NOT do menial jobs... You still see recent immigrants doing the worst jobs...I see this every day...Help wanted signs all over the place for menial jobs even though there are people out of work...

Prime example of this...There are almost NO high school or college age guys mowing lawns or doing yardwork around here...They are mostly older, immigrant men...Spoiled brats can't be bothered to work...

 

[Details]

Thanks!

Here is my data:

The Top 10 Immigration Myths, including the about folks not wanting to learn English y'all have been talking about:

http://www.immigrationforum.org/documents/TheJourney/MythsandFacts.pdf

(See #s 5 & 6)...

Then let's see some information from y'all refuting this...Muchas gracias!!

<sigh> Our lying eyes.... BG, and I and others are talking from personal experience - should we pretend it doesn't exist? It's real, and if you work or live in an area with a lot of immigrants, particularly illegals, you know the reality - it's no neocon myth (and, boy, you don't get any further from neocon than me). Or, if you want some really good proof - look at the story that started this thread - if all these immigrants speak English - why, oh why is there a problem if the airport wants to hire them?

On that stat - I don't consider 75% after 10 whole years speaking English 'well' anything close to a success. 10 whole years, and you still have 25% not speaking English well? That's bad, not good.

 

[cappuccina]

....one of the neocon fundie think tanks has to have some stats out there trying to refute the facts regarding immigration myths I cited earlier...Go find 'em!

I have never had trouble understanding anyone in an airport. Do some airline workers have accents. Yes. So do a lot of Americans who have been here their whole lives. I'm originally from Wisconsin. Do you know what happens to me when I am in rural Alabama...It's a "whole 'nother country"...Same diff...I don't hear you people complaining and saying that everyone working at an airport should have a "Midwestern newscaster accent"...Regional US accents are just as hard to deal with as accents from other countries...Frankly, I'd rather hear someone who is West Indian or African speaking English because it will be more correct and clear than some two-bit punk who cannot even speak his own language properly...

 

[Pepper]

You must not live in California. I guarantee those statistics don't apply here.

I see first hand evidence to the contrary every day. I work for a business owned by Mexican-Americans - legal citizens born here. We employ about 25 Hispanic workers. About 20 of the 25 are not here legally. Most have been here 5+ years. Only 2 of the illegal immigrants speak any English. The pay of these workers is between $8 and $11 per hr. - above minimum wage. The turnover rate is 2-5 workers per month. Many of these just fail to show up for work.

 

[cappuccina]

...studies done by prestigious universities and research orgs....

As they say in Wisconsin..."Yah, sure, YouBetcha!:

I'll take your musings over the US Census, US SSA, Brookings Institution, National Academy of Science, CLMS at Northeastern U, Federal Reserve, Cato Institute, Urban Institute, AILA, and Inter-American Development Bank's data any day... :doh: :dance: