Norway Norway - Isdalen, WhtFem 503UFNOR, multiple aliases, multilingual, Nov'70

[Doeologist]

Alright, it seems porridge is a favorite all over the northern parts and elsewhere. So I think she could have gotten her breakfast taste from Belgium/Germany and her fashion sense from Italy as an adult.

So I no longer think she was displaced very far growing up during the war. She could have just gone from West Germany to Belgium or Luxembourg (not France if her French wasn't tres biens). But I am looking at a couple of Yugoslavians who went to Homburg, Saarland in Germany, which would be one of the bigger displacements based on the isotopes maps.

 

[Susikatze]

Why are you still harping on her being Jewish ("displaced person" and your whole Edith Kohn theory)? No offense, but we have absolutely no evidence about that.
I mean assuming she was jewish just because she had a "darker" complexion, maybe worked as a spy or in the art trade, moved a few times in her life and was multilingual is fairly stereotypical thinking, dont you agree? I am jewish and somehow it starts rubbing me the wrong way. No offense, though.

We just know that we do not know much. I wish we had useable DNA.

 

[Doeologist]

I'm sorry but I'm only now agreeing with you. I did start out looking at Nuremburg and displaced Jewish females, using the the Annulled Nationality records. But now I only use the Registration of Foreigners and Persecutees records.

The isotopes, valid or not, still suggest displacement or a big move and the post-war foreigner registrations are freely available and the only real genealogical research tool we have where we can readily search by birthplace and new residence.

I personally can't rest without a working candidate. Anyway, here's one, maybe a little old, from Ljubljana (one of IW's 'fake' places of origin and I believe a secondary isotope zone) who moved or was displaced to Saarland.

Hedwig Susnik

in the Free Access: Europe, Registration of Foreigners and German Persecutees, 1939-1947

French Zone
Nationality: Jugoslawien
Record Type: Residence
Birth Date: 28 Feb 1923
Birth Place: Laibach/Ljubljana
Residence Place: Saarbrucken - Stadt (Saarbrucken)
Employer: Freimengen
Occupation: Kitchen Maid
Possible relative: Johann Susnik

 

[Susikatze]

WW2 led to a whole load of folks being displaced, think of all the ethnic Germans fleeing Poland, Romania and the Baltic states for the German mainland.
Her being born in Nürnberg and then living elsewhere is based on isotopes. We know that they can be really off. And even if they are accurate in this case, there are more reasons for moving than the war... parents moving, marriage, studies... we just dont know.
Many of the people discussed here are alive today or have living descendants who would not be thrilled to be taken apart in some forum by strangers.... if we knew someone was missing, that is worth considering. But not people where we dont know.
Again, no offense. But it is crossing boundaries.

 

[Susikatze]

You know, in the end i wouldnt even be surprised if she would turn out to be a local who was killed by her abusive husband...and all her sightings and luggage were red herrings.. We also thought Evelyn Colon was Croatian and Pam Buckley and Jim Freund Francocanadian or Argentinian.. they were all run of the mill Americans...

We need her DNA somewhere

 

[Doeologist]

The Pam and Jim false origins were based on witness reports of what the victims said. The victims apparently were lying. Evelyn Colon was born in 61, when imported drinks were becoming popular.I'm not sure where the cusp of isotope analysis validity is but I doubt we can say it was in 1930.

Right now, I prefer the Varvin theory with Jeanette Fort being an alias. Jewish or not, I think the isotope analysis basically coincides with where you would expect an attractive, intelligent and supremely self-empowered woman like her would come from in Europe. Also, most spectacular crimes or events are a result of outsiders.

 

[Doeologist]

We need her DNA somewhere

They're sending the DNA to police agencies. I don't think they want to use a common DNA data banks and use a genealogist to find her. Not everyone wants to do that. The only information they released was that she's European. Now I think that was their way of saying she's not Jewish and/or not from Israel, without coming out and saying it. If the admin wants to remove the EK posts, they can do so.

Isdal Woman - The True Crime Database

 

[Doeologist]

...I only use the Registration of Foreigners and Persecutees records.
The isotopes, valid or not, still suggest displacement or a big move and the post-war foreigner registrations are freely available and the only real genealogical research tool we have where we can readily search by birthplace and new residence.

I personally can't rest without a working candidate. Anyway, here's one, maybe a little old, from Ljubljana (one of IW's 'fake' places of origin and I believe a secondary isotope zone) who moved or was displaced to Saarland.

Hedwig Susnik

in the Free Access: Europe, Registration of Foreigners and German Persecutees, 1939-1947

Hedwig/Hedwige died in 2015 in Moselle, France, age 91 (another one who reached 91). But it shows that individuals can follow the "isotope path" of IW, so it could still be valid.

I believe I found one of the two candidates from the last Death In Ice Valley episode, the Czech one under the alternate name, in the Foreigners and Persecutees Records, which I use, so that line of search might also still be profitable.

 

[Doeologist]

The only information they released was that she's European. Now I think that was their way of saying she's not Jewish and/or not from Israel, without coming out and saying it.

Isdal Woman - The True Crime Database

The Somerton Man’s close cousin familial DNA match from his presumptive daughter is presumably Jewish on his maternal side — surname Swope which came from Schwab — and it’s not mentioned either way and most of the discussion focussed on the Gentile paternal side.

There’s no reason to rule out a Jewish or part Jewish IW. It should be considered until proven otherwise or we have a definitive public statement by the police. In the meantime, it also may help to consider the possibility of an anglicization of a name or a “francophonization” when following up on candidates.

 

[Doeologist]

WW2 led to a whole load of folks being displaced, think of all the ethnic Germans fleeing Poland, Romania and the Baltic states for the German mainland.
Her being born in Nürnberg and then living elsewhere is based on isotopes. We know that they can be really off. And even if they are accurate in this case, there are more reasons for moving than the war... parents moving, marriage, studies... we just dont know.

The isotopes tests are done on adult teeth. They apparently used IW’s wisdom teeth. That would give them her isotope areas from age 5 to 20. Early childhood results would be from about 5 to 10.

So for example, when the scientists say isotope evidence shows the Mad Trapper came from Norway and was “raised in the Midwest”, that probably means he had to have come to the US around age 10, so he was actually already raised for the most part by the time he got here.

Likewise, the isotopes here suggest IWs move was around the age of 10 again, so around 1940. So the likely reasons are that she was escaping Nazi persecution or was taken as an Ostarbeiter as well-suggested in the last DIIV episode, forced labour from the east, which would have started in 1942. I would put Ostarbeiter at the top of the list of possibilities which are many.

IW would have been the right age for an Ostarbeiter — 12-14. If she was one, the isotopes suggest she was taken from Yugoslavia. The Ostarbeiter lists were made public last year, and there can’t be a lot of Yugoslavians on it compared to Ukrainians.

All this is dependent on the validity of the isotope analysis. But Dr Chelsea Juarez says the isotope cut off for Mexico was about 40 years ago so around 1980. We’re talking 80-90 years ago.

 

[Doeologist]

If she was forced labor in the Metz isotope area, then she would likely have been in the French Zone after the war. So she would probably have had to escape, into the American zone or into the general population, to avoid forced repatriation by the French.

 

[Doeologist]

So IW may have escaped the French or British zone to avoid forced repatriation before being counted after the war or she could have escaped to the American zone and been counted there instead. So she may or may not be findable in the public records.

Nevertheless, I believe the Free Access: Register of Foreigners and German Persecutees is the best bet, especially if she was in some sort of Forced Labor Camp of which there were over 60 in Moselle for the Ostarbeiters and 13 for French, Belgian, Italian, etc.

Working Paper UHK A9_Vlossak_0.pdf (historikerkommission-reichsarbeitsministerium.de)

If she was from Nuremberg and moved west around 1940, then you automatically look for a Jewish IW. I've looked there extensively so now I'm looking at the next "best" isotope hotspot which centers around Priboj, Serbia.

The Balkans are the only Childhood Isotope areas in Eastern Europe, and there was a witness in 2019 who said he knew her in Forbach, France in "the summer of 1970" and she had a "Balkan accent". She's the one pictured on a horse. (The coded itinerary does have a place presumably with the first initial F where she supposedly stayed at the end of April 1970 for a week. I don't think this candidate has been debunked.

Unsolved Mysteries: The Isdal Woman | by Michael East | The Mystery Box | Medium

 

[Doeologist]

So if you leave out Nuremberg, the next childhood isotope hotspot is around Priboj, Serbia. It makes sense because the teenage hotspot is around Moselle France and Serb forced labor was moved to Moselle in 42. They worked in the mines, steel foundries, agriculture and in small businesses.

There are Serbs who were registered after the war in isotope places like Dortmund and Borken. They were born in Serbian isotope areas like Belgrade, the Cakac area, and at least one in the hotspot in Prijepolje according to the register.

Working Paper UHK A9_Vlossak_0.pdf (historikerkommission-reichsarbeitsministerium.de)

 

[Doeologist]

There was an anonymous postcard send, claiming the Isdal woman came from Meersburg.
You can read more on twitter about this :
https://mobile.twitter.com/PolizeiRV/status/1402176513458462724

FB posted a link in German about a car dealer that says he knew her in Meersburg in 1951 and she appears to be the right age — 21. It’s good corroboration if independent.

I have two Displaced Persons Camps in the area, in Wangen and KiBlegg, about an hour away.

 

[Doeologist]

Here's the link and a translation of what's viewable to non-registered public:

Did the mysterious Isdal victim work as a maid at the Schmid car dealership in Meersburg at the age of 21?

The 84-year-old Karl-Rudolf Schmid is convinced that he knew a young woman who exactly corresponds to the phantom drawing published in SÜDKURIER. Recent forensic investigations into one of the strangest cases in European criminal history suggest that this may be appropriate in terms of age. The mysterious woman, who died in the Eistal in 1970, is said to have been born around 1930 and grew up in Franconia.
The car dealership Franz Schmid at Bismarckplatz 1 at the Meersburger Untertor. In the room to which the arrow points, the 21-year-old girl lived in 1951, whom Karl-Rudolf Schmid from Meersburg met at the time. In his memory, it looked exactly like on the phantom drawing of the Isdal dead. "She was a maid [cleaner?] with us." Schmid himself did not like to be in the photo. "I'm an old man, I just wanted to tell this story."| Photo: Martin Baur
In Norway, everyone knows the case of the dead woman from Isdal – the Ice Valley. For a few weeks now, it has also been a topic at Lake Constance. Over 50 years after the unknown woman with at least nine identities in a gloomy Norwegian valley near....

Meersburg: Arbeitete die mysteriöse Isdaltote mit 21 Jahren als Dienstmädchen im Autohaus Schmid in Meersburg? | SÜDKURIER Online (suedkurier.de)

 

[Doeologist]

Considering her dark, exotic appearance, her wanderlust, and that R, assumed to be Rome, was annotated 4 times in her coded 9 month itinerary, it's looking like she might well profile best as a Romani or Sinti woman. I believe that the odds of a Roma's DNA not revealing any Haplogroup common in India, and showing up as "Continental European" would also be higher.

There are some records of persecuted/displaced Romani included with the free Jewish records on Ancestry. Only a couple of men show up when you search "Gypsy". More show up when you search the German word "Zigeunerin". Roma/Romani or Sinti didn't get any hits.

Unsolved Mysteries: The Isdal Woman

 

[Doeologist]

Thousands of Jewish orphans along with Roma survived in orphanages in Antwerp and Wesembeek.

If IW’s script indicates usage of French workbooks, doesn’t it make more sense to put her in a French-speaking country by wartime, and in a stable educational environment to develop these fundamental styles? Although it could be done in hiding with family or friends, would not an orphanage make a better fit?

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc5468/m2/1/high_res_d/thesis.pdf

 

[Mrs. Badcrumble]

Hew Morrison, who hails from Inverness, has helped create a realistic facial depiction of the unidentified woman based on police sketches and dental records.

He has been aided by gaining access to original and unreleased crime scene photographs from journalists who have followed the case.

Particular focus has been paid to the woman’s teeth, as details has not been shared before.

How an Inverness forensic artist could help solve a notorious 50-year-old mystery surrounding a woman's death in Norway

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[Susikatze]

Is she missing the second incisors? Like Somerton Man? Looks a bit like.

Edit, checked the police image and no, the teeth are normal.

 

[Doeologist]

The image with the mouth parted, showing the gap. I heard it's better to have a sketch with the prominent features slightly exaggerated to trigger recognition. The gap is probably the most prominent recognizable feature. People will tend to look for "flaws" or something less than "perfection" in attractive people, not just in a negative sense but maybe to make them more "approachable". <modsnip>