Norway Norway - Oslo - WhtFem 20-30 - Fake Name - Shot in Hotel Room - 3 June 1995 #2

[Marantz4250b]

I'm not sure, really. My guess is that it would be easier to shoot with a thumb on the trigger if the pistol was close to the body. I think it would be far more difficult for a person who was standing, and easiest if they were lying down.

I don't follow your reasoning here. If you can put a pistol to your forehead with your thumb through the trigger whilst lying down then you can to it while standing or sitting. Again, look back at the pic I posted from the movie - he was in a sitting position in that frame.

On the subject of weirdly angled shooting; a chap called Richard Davis (if I recall correctly), who founded the Second Chance body armour company famously used to demonstrate his wares by shooting himself in body with a .44 Magnum revolver using a bizarre upside down/inverted hold which looks ridiculous - as well dangerous af. This was demonstrated on the Deadly Weapons video which was used for law enforcement/military training, back in the day. Believe me, if a fat bloke wearing body armour with telephone books stuffed underneath it can do that then a slim woman in her 20's can place a pistol to her forehead with ease!

I'll see if I can find a video of that to link to.

Edit: Yep, found it. Easier than I thought!

 

[branmuffin]

100%. That can't happen, though, until Norwegian law changes.

Failing that, someone who did know her, and knows that she's the woman in the hotel room, might come forward with additional evidence to prove her identity. I don't think it's impossible that someone, somewhere, knows who she is.

So when the exhumation happened in 2016 they retrieved bones and teeth. Norway doesn't embalm their deceased and coffins have to be biodegradable by 20 years so much of the remains had already disintegrated. Norway buries over prior gravesite remains unless someone wants to rent the burial site after 20 years. So LE waited the 20 years before they dug up her body. What was left was sent to Austria and Australia. I have no idea who got what but the isotope analysis was done by Norway and that suggested European background, possibly East German. Did the DNA from the two labs provide an East German background, too? I'm usually pretty skeptical of isotope analysis; it's sent people on wild goose chases. So I'm not sure when the discussion about her East German background is related to isotope or DNA testing. Does anyone know?

 

[Marantz4250b]

A youtuber raised a couple of points that I will just pass along.

The door was doubled locked from the inside and both keycards were in the room.

In particular, the deadbolt had been manually engaged, which, if you've stayed in hotels, you know can only be done from inside the room.

Yes, some theorists airily wave that away as 'easily done by experts': frankly, I don't believe that.

Secondly, the fact that the shot was fired right after the security guard knocked on the door and announced himself. Why would a potential murderer chose that moment to commit the murder? When they know there is a security guard standing right outside?

Interesting, in a different context someone recently pointed out that there are far more suicides than murders. Your most likely killer is yourself.

JMO

I don't either, quite frankly.

Yes, there is a video of someone allegedly doing it by strapping a string around the handle on the inside, pulling the bolt to lock it and then pulling the string out to take to evidence away.

Sorry, but this just adds yet another implausible layer to an already very elaborate theory and another mode of being caught as it slows you down and potentially leaves evidence.

 

[Marantz4250b]

As you note, the timing of the shot, with a security guard outside, would be less likely in a murder. If there were doors between adjoining rooms, which some hotels have for family groups, it could have been possible for someone to shoot and then leave through a door to an adjacent room.

Locksets in hotels are not necessarily as secure as they appear. Deadbolts in hotels are master keyed so that maintenance staff can enter. Electronic locks are not as secure as one would think. Staff has master key cards to enter rooms. Also, in 1995, electronic locks were much less secure than they are today. I have never seen a photo of the room locks, which would be helpful to understand the level of sophistication required for unauthorized entry.

Suicide can't be ruled out, but there are a lot of unexplained missing items and circumstances.

I was in a hotel over the weekend and this thought occurred to me - tbh it's something that does through my head each time I'm away but never get round to posting it.

When you think about it, the "deadbolt" on a hotel door is, as far as I can tell, pretty pointless as far as security is concerned. You need the keycard to activate the door handle from the outside. If you don't have the key card then you can't move the handle downwards. How, then, does this stop a random burglar or assailant, because they can't get in in any event without the card?

I suspect (but haven't tried it) that if the door is "deadbolted" on the inside that swiping your keycard on the outside will withdraw the deadbolt when you push the handle down - as it does from the inside when you move the handle down.

Seems to me that the "deadbolt" is there simply for psychological reassurance. I mean, it'll provide a bit more resistance if someone tries to batter the door down but who ever does that??

 

[Marantz4250b]

In post #161 at the top of the last page @Beekarina posts an article which explains how this exact same locking system was professionally tested and was easily manipulated/ locked from the outside with a piece of string passing through in seconds then quickly concealed in a pocket.

As I noted, though. This adds yet another layer of complexity to an already convoluted theory. It's one more fairly unnecessary step which could lead to being caught.

 

[Marantz4250b]

But there's no evidence anyone actually used any such technique.

I've noticed that someone very dedicated a particular theory will often go to any lengths to promote it and try to overcome all objections. And it's all fun and games

I'm just glad it's not the way law enforcement does investigations: coming up with theoretical ways to invalidate the evidence, so they can continue with their pet theory and, for example, prosecute someone who is innocent.

JMO

Agreed entirely!

 

[Marantz4250b]

The watch. Apparently among the special ops units it is used by is the British special forces and the gun which is very common in Britain and commonwealth countries.

I'm not aware that the watch or gun are relevant at all.

Yes, the Browning was used by the British military for decades. However, the gun in this case was never a British or commonwealth issue weapon. It's receiver (frame, for want of a better word) is generally accepted to have been made under licence by FEG in Hungary, they were a big maker; the slide was marked Browning Canada, again common, and the barrel was marked 9x19 (the NATO designation) for the chambering designation, which I would have thought unusual, or almost unheard of, in the civilian market at the time.

So:

Receiver: Commercial or military
Slide: Very likely commercial
Barrel: Very likely military - or originally destined for a military contract.

The gun is made from bits and was never a military gun, at least not in that form.

The serial number was scratched off which points strongly towards illicit supply.

I'm not aware that the watch was ever used by British special forces. Even if it was, it means nothing. Osama Bin-Laden wore a G-Shok. Means nothing. Also, "special ops" are nothing to do with espionage. The point of espionage is to blend in, not to stand out.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I agree with you about it not being espionage. Still think she was an attaché involved with an unavailable man.

But if she was employed as such then someone would have noticed her missing at some point and she would have been identified.

 

[Marantz4250b]

An affair makes sense, and could explain suicide, but it does not explain all of the missing pants/skirts/personal hygeine, etc Otherwise, I think a lot about the situation could point to "Jennifer" having an affair. It makes so much more sense than her being a spy. Perhaps the affair partner was the guy who stayed in the room across the hall who messed up when he spoke with the Norwegian press and mentioned "Jennifer" being dead the day before she was discovered deceased and the hotel having allegedly asked him about it? It is possible they had a fight, she killed herself (or he killed her), he panicked and left with the wrong bag?

As far as I recall, it was years later when he was finally interviewed and gave an interview through a closed door. Again, we come back to the frailties of human memory - he'd probably seen multiple media reports of this over the years and thought he'd been told she was found dead when he was there or was about to leave, or whatever. Just got his dates mixed up because of the frailties of human memory.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Exactly. I have been saying she was having an affair with some, missed her period and thought she was pregnant so she told her affair partner and he decides to kill her so he can avoid a messy divorce and/or payments for child care she would leverage at him.

But there is simply zero evidence to support any of that. Not to mention that murder is almost never a solution to some random illicit shagging that results in pregnancy!

If that really is the answer to all of this then Mr Baby Daddy is literally the most accomplished person at planning and executing a highly elaborate and risky murder - the potential consequences of which VASTLY outweigh any benefits - with a 100% success rate, than anyone I have ever heard of.

Again, like lots of people have said; this is just inventing "stuff" that might have happened with little or no recourse to the actual evidence.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Unless she was very newly pregnant, it seems this would be obvious to a medical professional on autopsy? But yes, she might have just said such a thing, either from anxiety or other reasons. She was still very young.

Maybe the colorful shoes the hotel housekeeper admired were a present bought for her at the Oslo shopping center?

Aware this seems out there, but she DID check in with a false name, and gave a false name for another person, AND was seen with a man who was thought to be a bit older than her. Really a shame the CCTV at the time seems to have not been utilized.....

I do find the idea of a young woman just going to Oslo from East Germany, to plan an elaborate anonymous stay at a Radisson and shoot herself after hanging around Oslo for a couple of days totally bizarre. It is a lot of trouble for all of that. If you're suicidal, you probably don't have that kind of energy, based on my experience of being around people who have been.

I could see suicide if she was upset, impulsive and the gun belonged to her lover. Assuming there really WAS a guy going around by"Lois Fairgate". the gun and bullets may have belonged to him.

I get what you're saying but suicide is not a rational act in 99% of cases. It's a result of emotional crisis and turmoil. Explaining someone's actions surrounding it cannot be judged from the point of view of reason and considered judgement. It's always chaotic and irrational, even if it isn't evident to others.

There was an older chap who was found dead on a hillside in Wales (I think, might have been Scotland) some years back. He was known to have been randomly wandering the town for some days before he was found. He lived miles and miles away and was found with a pill bottle from Pakistan or somewhere in his pocket.

Let's not forget that we don't know that she was from anywhere in Germany at all. Some of the evidence points in that direction, but some of it points towards Belgium as well. The name she used tends to suggest someone of British descent. Perhaps the accent was South African?

On the second point - yes, it's extremely unusual for a young woman to be travelling with almost nothing other than a few clothes, a Browning pistol and a load of ammo. She obviously got that from someone. I doubt we'll ever know from whom, though.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Norwegian police are allowed to use commersial DNA databases.
Article from 28 August 2025 - translated with Google Translate:

Norsk politi får bruke DNA-slektsforskning - Bioteknologirådet

– Riksadvokaten ønsker at metoden skal anvendes, og vil utarbeide retningslinjer med sikte på dette.

bioteknologiradet-no.translate.goog

Is that the same as uploading her DNA to an international system, though?

If so, then I'd be surprised if they didn't try that. However, I note that it mentions "serious" crime. Does that also include cases which are already closed as suicide and it's purely being used for identification purposes? If so then hopefully they will use it. That article is less than a year old so maybe they just haven't got round to it as yet?

 

[Marantz4250b]

So when the exhumation happened in 2016 they retrieved bones and teeth. Norway doesn't embalm their deceased and coffins have to be biodegradable by 20 years so much of the remains had already disintegrated. Norway buries over prior gravesite remains unless someone wants to rent the burial site after 20 years. So LE waited the 20 years before they dug up her body. What was left was sent to Austria and Australia. I have no idea who got what but the isotope analysis was done by Norway and that suggested European background, possibly East German. Did the DNA from the two labs provide an East German background, too? I'm usually pretty skeptical of isotope analysis; it's sent people on wild goose chases. So I'm not sure when the discussion about her East German background is related to isotope or DNA testing. Does anyone know?

As far as I'm aware, they have said that they have a full DNA profile for her.

I'm not sure that DNA profiles can reliably denote a place of birth. DNA is about heritage, rather than place of origin of the individual. It will produce matches to relatives, however.

Edit: I'm fairly confident that she'll be identified. Sometime relatively soon, I suspect. If for no other reason that the Norwegian authorities will get sick of spending the time and money on the endless enquiries that I'm in no doubt they will be getting on a regular.

 

[Warwick1991]

I don't follow your reasoning here. If you can put a pistol to your forehead with your thumb through the trigger whilst lying down then you can to it while standing or sitting. Again, look back at the pic I posted from the movie - he was in a sitting position in that frame.

On the subject of weirdly angled shooting; a chap called Richard Davis (if I recall correctly), who founded the Second Chance body armour company famously used to demonstrate his wares by shooting himself in body with a .44 Magnum revolver using a bizarre upside down/inverted hold which looks ridiculous - as well dangerous af. This was demonstrated on the Deadly Weapons video which was used for law enforcement/military training, back in the day. Believe me, if a fat bloke wearing body armour with telephone books stuffed underneath it can do that then a slim woman in her 20's can place a pistol to her forehead with ease!

I'll see if I can find a video of that to link to.

Edit: Yep, found it. Easier than I thought!

As far as standing vs lying down is concerned, I am guessing that "Jennifer" was not an experienced shooter. Assuming suicide, the weight of the pistol, along with the use of the thumb to pull the trigger, would be more difficult in a standing position with arms extended. She might not be able to aim as effectively.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Just a few random thoughts on things that point away from her having anything to do with espionage on a state level.

How many other cases can anyone think of where foreign agents are actually identified, let alone turn up dead in hotel rooms or other public places? How many cases can we think of where an actual, identifiable foreign agent is even noted as being extant?

These cases are very, very few and far between, if they even actually exist at all outside of all-out war such as the Second World War, etc. Foreign agents were definitely identified, captured and executed in that war.

I got thinking about this as I was in Cambridge at the weekend (well, Suffolk, but had a day shopping in Cambridge) and, as many will know, there was an extremely famous ring of spies recruited by the Soviets and uncovered in the 1950's/60's who were feeding information to Moscow for absolutely years, decades in fact.

None of these spies were "foreign" agents, they were all UK (or Empire) born and did what they did on ideological grounds, rather than out of a sense of national duty. This is by far the most common form of espionage agent, as far as it seems to me.

There certainly have been foreign born spies, I think the US had a few Russian, Chinese or otherwise communist born spies, but these were people who were in place and assimilated into the target nation over years and sometimes decades.

I can't recall any confirmed case of a foreign agent on a "mission", James Bond style, who's ever been identified. Not saying there haven't been but to suggest that this woman was such a person, simply on the grounds that the details of the finding of her body were extremely unusual really doesn't cut it for me, I'm afraid.

Also, to suggest that such an agent would be wandering around with a big gun like a Browning Hi-Power and loads of ammo - or any firearm for that matter - just seems absolutely ludicrous, quite honestly. I mean, you only need be caught once and you're toast. How do you travel? Flying is most certainly out as you're never going to be too successful transporting something like that.

You could drive - where was her car?

Trains and boats - yes, a possibility but these things leave evidence such as tickets and, also, there may be security searches, especially when crossing borders.

By far the most likely origin for the gun is that it was sourced locally - or semi-locally in one of the other Nordic/Scandinavian countries. Sweden and Denmark, not so sure about Norway, have had trouble with criminal biker gangs and suchlike for decades which has often involved serious firepower and gang warfare. That pistol feels like a very likely gun to have come via that route - the serial number being removed and it being constructed from bits strongly suggests that, to me.

Sorry, it'll take a lot more evidence to convince me of any espionage involvement here.

 

[Marantz4250b]

As far as standing vs lying down is concerned, I am guessing that "Jennifer" was not an experienced shooter. Assuming suicide, the weight of the pistol, along with the use of the thumb to pull the trigger, would be more difficult in a standing position with arms extended. She might not be able to aim as effectively.

The gun weighs just under a kilo - depending on specific type and how many rounds it has in it at any one time.

Anyone who can lift a bag of sugar can lift that gun.

I've never seen it suggested that she held it with arms extended. She pressed it against her forehead. Just like in the frame of Mel Gibson in the movie I posted several posts back. Even those postulating the murder theory in the Unsolved Mysteries show say that it was in contact with her when it discharged. "Aiming" it was never an issue.

 

[Warwick1991]

The gun weighs just under a kilo - depending on specific type and how many rounds it has in it at any one time.

Anyone who can lift a bag of sugar can lift that gun.

I've never seen it suggested that she held it with arms extended. She pressed it against her forehead. Just like in the frame of Mel Gibson in the movie I posted several posts back. Even those postulating the murder theory in the Unsolved Mysteries show say that it was in contact with her when it discharged. "Aiming" it was never an issue.

I will not engage further, but my response to you was based on your question - why did she shoot lying down or sitting instead of standing.... It would be easier to have muzzle contact with her forehead if she were lying down or sitting in bed. Also, a traditional standing shooting position with a full size semiautomatic like a GP-35 could be uncomfortable for some women.

 

[Professor Moriarty]

I was in a hotel over the weekend and this thought occurred to me - tbh it's something that does through my head each time I'm away but never get round to posting it.

When you think about it, the "deadbolt" on a hotel door is, as far as I can tell, pretty pointless as far as security is concerned. You need the keycard to activate the door handle from the outside. If you don't have the key card then you can't move the handle downwards. How, then, does this stop a random burglar or assailant, because they can't get in in any event without the card?

I suspect (but haven't tried it) that if the door is "deadbolted" on the inside that swiping your keycard on the outside will withdraw the deadbolt when you push the handle down - as it does from the inside when you move the handle down.

Seems to me that the "deadbolt" is there simply for psychological reassurance. I mean, it'll provide a bit more resistance if someone tries to batter the door down but who ever does that??

I tested this in an hotel with adjoining rooms. Room 1 was deadbolted from the inside and we went into the corridor by going through room 2. When we used the key card on room 1's door, we couldn't open the door. The only way back into room 1 was through room 2.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I will not engage further, but my response to you was based on your question - why did she shoot lying down or sitting instead of standing.... It would be easier to have muzzle contact with her forehead if she were lying down or sitting in bed. Also, a traditional standing shooting position with a full size semiautomatic like a GP-35 could be uncomfortable for some women.

I don't believe that I asked that question.

I don't understand how it would be easier, in any meaningful way, to put a gun to your forehead whilst lying than in any other position.

Women of virtually any stature or build are perfectly capable of using a pistol like that one. I think you're placing too much emphasis on women being less capable than men, tbh. They generally aren't.

 

[Beekarina]

Isotopes have been wildly off. An example I gave in a related discussion was "Beth Doe", Evelyn Colon. Isotope analysis indicated she was Central European. She was from New Jersey, United States.

It was isotope analysis also with "Jennifer Fairgate". Her teeth were used.

Dental enamel was also used with Evelyn, and it was thought she was likely from Serbia or Croatia. Other analysis then suggested she may have moved to the US as a teenager, and had her living in Tennessee, or a similar Southern state. So....I also lean more towards direct DNA comparisons if there are any young women who pop up who could possibly be a match. This does not mean I think Jennifer was NOT German, only that I do not insist she HAD to be.