NV NV - Steven T. Koecher, 30, Henderson, 13 Dec 2009 - #15

[Fairy1]

This is where my innate skepticism comes in. Suddenly snapping, dissociative fugue and amnesia, IMO, are clever plots in fiction but are very very rare. If they even exist. I think a person can use them as an excuse, because they allow the person to disavow responsibility for certain actions, and recover their previously-pure entity.

The comments about Hannah Upp are intriguing. She broke her "fugue" by jumping into the water and being dramatically rescued and cured at the same time, in NYC.

IMO, Hannah Upp's "normal" was not the norm before she did what she did.

Also, I believe it is possible that Steven's mental break began quite some time before his car wound up in SCA. The driving, the long pauses when speaking, the inability to organize his thoughts and himself enough to find a better job. All of those things are indicative of some type of mental crisis, IMO.

If something happened at a meeting, I think it wasn't a "meeting" (so to speak) and was a crime against Steven. Something like that could cause him mental harm or worse.

I believe Steven is either somewhere well-off, or with us no longer. I think he'd ask for help at some point, in some way, otherwise.

I don't believe there actually was any meeting or interview. Maybe Steven just believed there was.

As you know, I believe he is still with us.....somewhere. And either isn't clear-headed enough to find help or has gotten it from someone who doesn't know he's "missing."

 

[laytonian]

Yes. But his car was found HERE. If it was his intention to disappear elsewhere, I think he would have driven closer to his destination.

...and if his car was found in front of my house, I'd be saying the same thing.
Vegas was the closest place to where he was.

See, I just don't think it's that complicated or organized. If someone is out of the mainstream, it would be very simple to go undetected. Having no car or computer or cell phone - or any other "worldly" possessions would make it quite simple to live under the radar. IMO.

But you do think it was organized, where the car was found -- right?

Even the homeless and missing come into contact with other people. To survive "off the grid", you USE other people who ARE on the grid. You use public services, soup kitchens, you use shelters, you shoplift, you get enough money to buy food and drink to keep yourself alive, you talk to the cops. You pick up day jobs.

Think of Brian David Mitchell (Elizabeth Smart's kidnapper). He was a drifter, lived up in the mountains, panhandled in SLC, went to parties -- he was VERY well known. He, too, would be described as "off the grid".

 

[Fairy1]

...and if his car was found in front of my house, I'd be saying the same thing.
Vegas was the closest place to where he was.

Well, Cedar City and Mesquite were both closer. But he didn't go there. He came here. Still, for whatever reason.

But you do think it was organized, where the car was found -- right?

I do. But I don't know why.

Even the homeless and missing come into contact with other people. To survive "off the grid", you USE other people who ARE on the grid. You use public services, soup kitchens, you use shelters, you shoplift, you get enough money to buy food and drink to keep yourself alive, you talk to the cops. You pick up day jobs.

That's what I'm saying! He could have come into contact with ANY of these people and still have fallen through the cracks. If you drive by the soup kitchens at the right time of day or night, the people are lined up for miles! Do you think those places are checking ID's or asking questions?

Think of Brian David Mitchell (Elizabeth Smart's kidnapper). He was a drifter, lived up in the mountains, panhandled in SLC, went to parties -- he was VERY well known. He, too, would be described as "off the grid".

Mitchell wasn't off the grid if he was very well known. He fancied himself some sort of disciple of God and WANTED people to know who he was. He wasn't even trying to lay low - even when he was doing something he KNEW was wrong! And I wouldn't put Steven into the same category with that freak at all.

 

[carbuff]

This is where my innate skepticism comes in. Suddenly snapping, dissociative fugue and amnesia, IMO, are clever plots in fiction but are very very rare. If they even exist. I think a person can use them as an excuse, because they allow the person to disavow responsibility for certain actions, and recover their previously-pure entity.

The comments about Hannah Upp are intriguing. She broke her "fugue" by jumping into the water and being dramatically rescued and cured at the same time, in NYC -- remember? The only problem is: she was checking her email while supposedly in the fugue.

If something happened at a meeting, I think it wasn't a "meeting" (so to speak) and was a crime against Steven. Something like that could cause him mental harm or worse.

I believe Steven is either somewhere well-off, or with us no longer. I think he'd ask for help at some point, in some way, otherwise.

Fugue states are rare and easy to fake. Sudden-onset mental illness, particularly schizophrenia and OCD, is, unfortunately, not rare at all, and yes, I have known someone it happened to.

Manic episodes can also strike rapidly, though there would likely have been previous episodes of that and we've been told there wasn't anything in his past.

And yes, injury or a traumatic experience would be a possibility.

Normally I'd rate those down in the vanishingly small chance of being what happened, but given the nature of the sightings, I have to wonder if they aren't in play here.

 

[Fairy1]

gsmith - can you tell us anything about what happened today?

 

[laytonian]

Well, Cedar City and Mesquite were both closer. But he didn't go there. He came here. Still, for whatever reason.

A reason. That's the key. That's organized thought.

That's what I'm saying! He could have come into contact with ANY of these people and still have fallen through the cracks. If you drive by the soup kitchens at the right time of day or night, the people are lined up for miles! Do you think those places are checking ID's or asking questions?

The police do, if they're hauled in. Certain services, especially medical, require identification. Anyone that gives out money, checks ID. That dental school tip? That one should easily have been ruled out, because dental work isn't a medical emergency. No one's going to treat you, except in an emergency room, if they don't know who you are and who's going to pay for your treatment.

Mitchell wasn't off the grid if he was very well known. He fancied himself some sort of disciple of God and WANTED people to know who he was. He wasn't even trying to lay low - even when he was doing something he KNEW was wrong! And I wouldn't put Steven into the same category with that freak at all.

I'm not putting Steven in that category, but the only way you can truly be off the grid, is to camp out next to a stream and capture wild game for dinner.

Mitchell was known to most as Emmanuel; the police and the agencies who supported him, knew his name. Even the Smarts didn't. They hired a nice preacher-man to do work for them.

Any of the street people, are as well-known to the police, as Mitchell was.
But Mitchell the freak was still living on the side of the mountain, and using public services.

Just as any of the homeless people in Vegas (or any other town) are. That's why they go to cities that have facilities for them, rather than truly being off-grid.

That's why Steven would have gone to Vegas, Sacramento or another large, non-Utah city. Cedar City doesn't have the services he'd need.

 

[Fairy1]

A reason. That's the key. That's organized thought.

Maybe.

The police do, if they're hauled in. Certain services, especially medical, require identification. Anyone that gives out money, checks ID. That dental school tip? That one should easily have been ruled out, because dental work isn't a medical emergency. No one's going to treat you, except in an emergency room, if they don't know who you are and who's going to pay for your treatment.

They would only be hauled in or even questioned IF they were doing something they shouldn't be doing. There are plenty of homeless folks here who, I'm sure, just mind their own beeswax.

I'm not putting Steven in that category, but the only way you can truly be off the grid, is to camp out next to a stream and capture wild game for dinner.

Mitchell was known to most as Emmanuel; the police and the agencies who supported him, knew his name. Even the Smarts didn't. They hired a nice preacher-man to do work for them.

I know you're not. Neither am I. I'm just saying - not every homeless person - even on the streets of a city like Las Vegas - are in the sights of LE.

Any of the street people, are as well-known to the police, as Mitchell was.

But Mitchell the freak was still living on the side of the mountain, and using public services.

Just as any of the homeless people in Vegas (or any other town) are. That's why they go to cities that have facilities for them, rather than truly being off-grid.

That's why Steven would have gone to Vegas, Sacramento or another large, non-Utah city. Cedar City doesn't have the services he'd need.

Judging from the sheer number of homeless here in Vegas, I am 100% certain they are not all known to LE or to the homeless-serving facilities. There is no way LE has the resources to know all of these folks - unless they're doing something wrong.

We do NOT have the facilities or the resources to accommodate our homeless population. Never have, never will. And there really are so many, I'm quite certain many of them are completely off the grid and can stay there indefinitely.

 

[Fairy1]

Not much new here:

http://www.ktnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12782708

But at least it's being covered!

 

[RubyRed]

I believe Steven is either somewhere well-off, or with us no longer. I think he'd ask for help at some point, in some way, otherwise.

So you don't think Steven had some sort of emotional breakdown?
Is this because the person that thought he possibly saw Steven, said he was asking about a job?

 

[carbuff]

I would say most of the homeless are not so much off the grid as through the cracks. Some of them want to be there. Others just find themselves there and then can't get back up.

 

[Fairy1]

I would say most of the homeless are not so much off the grid as through the cracks. Some of them want to be there. Others just find themselves there and then can't get back up.

I agree carbuff. If I was going this route, I would head to Southern California. The temps there are great all year long and there are plenty of places for the homeless to hang out.

It's hot and humid in Vegas now. I pity those who have nowhere to go for shelter.

 

[laytonian]

So you don't think Steven had some sort of emotional breakdown?
Is this because the person that thought he possibly saw Steven, said he was asking about a job?

No. I just don't see him on the streets.

I don't see a breakdown; I see high stress and some depression as a result of being unemployed and unmarried at 30. Do we see him as the kind of savvy guy who could thrive on the streets amongst the severely drug addicted, alcoholic and mentally ill? Someone who thought his newsroom coworkers were "too worldly"?

If he wanted to disappear in Vegas, why not just take a bus from St George and leave the car at home? He had enough money to buy gas and have half a tank of it left when the car was found.

There's just too many purposeful (but unknown) movements. Say he was in a dissociative fugue, causing a loss of identity and memory, and which some believe can even cause someone to make random travels. That doesn't describe the Ruby Valley trip. Or the fact that he found his way back home. Or travelled the next day, and came back to his home. Then went shopping for Christmas presents. Then found his way to a hidden spot, parked, waited, then walked away.

Sadly, I just think something happened to him. I really hope I'm wrong.

 

[Fairy1]

No. I just don't see him on the streets.

I don't see a breakdown; I see high stress and some depression as a result of being unemployed and unmarried at 30. Do we see him as the kind of savvy guy who could thrive on the streets amongst the severely drug addicted, alcoholic and mentally ill? Someone who thought his newsroom coworkers were "too worldly"?

If he wanted to disappear in Vegas, why not just take a bus from St George and leave the car at home? He had enough money to buy gas and have half a tank of it left when the car was found.

There's just too many purposeful (but unknown) movements. Say he was in a dissociative fugue, which some believe can a loss of identity and memory and even cause someone to make random travels. That doesn't describe the Ruby Valley trip. Or the fact that he found his way back home. Or travelled the next day, and came back to his home. Then went shopping for Christmas presents.

Sadly, I just think something happened to him. I really hope I'm wrong.

I don't. Maybe his movements were not purposeful, but a symptom of depression or a pending mental crisis.

Couldn't he have hooked up with someone who knows their way around the streets? They're not all "bad" people and we have more homeless folks here now than ever before due to the recession. Maybe someone has taken him under their wing and is protective of him?

I just cannot understand why anyone would harm Steven. Whatever the circumstances.

I hope I am right.

 

[hollyblue]

If Steven did decide to walk away, I'd be pretty certain he is no longer a Mormon per se. When questioning your life, normally this is the first thing you question, your beliefs.... especially someone of his age and the predicament he was in. (?)

I don't think he had any sort of mental breakdown. I think it was planned. His going to Ruby Valley, not going to church that day, and saying he wouldn't be there for the BB game on the following Wed. Actually I thought it was a bit strange that they would ask. I think there may be something in Mesquite tied to it...why I just don't know, but that little trip just did not make any sense.

We need to go back and remember Steven wasn't acting "normal" for a long time. Switching jobs, not apparently happy with the opportunities he had laid out for him. If he was really wanting a job in journalism, his foot was in the door so to speak. The moving to SG and not knowing anyone......for a 30 year old with many friends and connections in the SLC area is just totally off the board. If you do leave your hometown, normally it's a job that takes you there, or even if you decide to just venture on your own, you may go back to where you went to school or move close to a schoolmate/friend for the moral support and comradery at least while seeking your quest. We have to admit, he was irresponsible and prolly a bit defiant to do they things he had done.

No, Steven had been in a quandary for a very long time....expectations were not being met....whether they were his or someone else's....I don't think we will ever know. I think there are very many things we were not told....and I'm really not sure he didn't have money. Actually, I'm not sure of much anything anymore...because what we have been told has not matched up. But I think we need to go back to the very beginning. Right now I'm not looking at Steven as a lost little puppy but a person who made choices on his own. If he was indeed as childlike as he has been portrayed, they would not have consented or let him venture off so far away....they would have done somersaults to prevent it.

I'm not blaming anyone in the family I'm just saying I think we are not giving Steven any amount of credit for truly thinking on his own. We have been talking as if he had a developmental problem, and I really don't think there is any proof in his actions or his parents to think that is true. I just think that whatever his "problems" were..they have been there for years....I just wished we knew...because it would so help in really trying to find him. I don't think we have ask or speculated on whether he had ever had any counseling...professional or with the church, but would be helpful. (If we did----I have totally forgotten:waitasec

Think about it....if he really was fed up with the "worldly"---throwing yourself out there amongst it all...especially LV--- is not what you are going to do. Your going to try to get as close to the salt of the earth as possible. ???? :twocents:

 

[laytonian]

The Deseret News has an excellent article this morning, from the perspective of the families left behind when someone goes missing. The article focuses on several local (Utah) families and their experiences, although not Steven's family.

SHATTERED: After The Public Moves On...

It's also a good reminder why we need to be respectful, and do no harm.

 

[hollyblue]

Here is video from last years retreat and all it encompasses. The dates for this year are in August along with other info for Project Jason.

Project Jason Keys to Healing Retreat on Yahoo! Video

 

[justice57]

I just keep looking at the the trip to Ruby Valley, Nevada. I can't imagine driving 1100 miles to visit with an ex-girlfriend (who didn't live there any longer), visit for 2 hours with her family and drive back to St. George. It just isn't rational. There had to be a purpose for that trip.

 

[laytonian]

I just keep looking at the the trip to Ruby Valley, Nevada. I can't imagine driving 1100 miles to visit with an ex-girlfriend (who didn't live there any longer), visit for 2 hours with her family and drive back to St. George. It just isn't rational. There had to be a purpose for that trip.

Well...at least the @1100 was the round trip.

IF RUBY VALLEY WAS THE DESTINATION: Was he looking for work on the N ranch, their mill, or at another ranch? He'd been there (at least) once before, for the cattle branding, which was some sort of group event organized by AN.

IF THERE WAS ANOTHER PURPOSE: I've proposed, several times, that he was "running errands" for someone. What was his destination? There's not much extra time available for that drive and visit. To be back in Nephi at the time of the Taco Time receipt, doesn't allow him to drive much further than he did. Elko, Nevada? Was it really Sacramento?

Wish we knew what they all talked about for two hours. That's a lot of talking, and all we know is that they warned him of an incoming storm, and that he mentioned going to Sacramento. IF HE WAS TRULY SUPPOSED TO GO TO SACRAMENTO FOR SOME REASON: did his return (avoiding the storm, which would have been nasty over Donner Pass) mean he didn't fulfill his obligation?

Like most other drivers, he wasn't very adventurous. That trip was straight along the freeway, rather than the shorter route. I don't think we can assume that his destination was SLC or Wendover, just because he took the freeway.

 

[sbakker]

I just keep looking at the the trip to Ruby Valley, Nevada. I can't imagine driving 1100 miles to visit with an ex-girlfriend (who didn't live there any longer), visit for 2 hours with her family and drive back to St. George. It just isn't rational. There had to be a purpose for that trip.

I agree with you, there had to be a purpose for this trip. and while he there for something else, he thought he would stop in and visit.

 

[carbuff]

I agree with you, there had to be a purpose for this trip. and while he there for something else, he thought he would stop in and visit.

Me three. Also the Mesquite/Overton/?maybe LV? trip which we've never paid much attention to.