GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #4

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  • #361
Sigh. I guess you are right. I was just trying to think of SOMETHING different that we hadn't tossed around yet. And to me, this still doesn't feel right. What is the reason for the anger? There's something we are missing. If not a romantic relationship, then it has to be someone owed someone money, or maybe, as just mentioned above -- someone scratched someone else's prized Audi and they got really mad. I think we are close to what really happened. But I still want to know WHY. Ugh.

I've been cogitating on that question. I think BM and KM were out hunting for EN that night, and that BM was armed when they set out. But why were they out looking for him, armed and angry?

I don't have a working theory as to why they were looking for EN. But it could be any of numerous reasons. Maybe KM did have a romantic or sexual relationship with EN, and he threw her over. Maybe he had previously come onto her in a very aggressive and offensive way, and BM was wanting to protect his baby sister's honor. Maybe a prior drug deal that they thought he had ripped them off. Maybe there was an inter-gang or intra-gang turf war. Maybe he was spreading ugly rumors around the neighborhood about KM. Maybe lots of things. I can think of a lot more reasons BM & KM would get into it with EN than reasons that TM would.
 
  • #362
I loved your scenario because we do need to think outside the box and consider everything.

The why is the most important question I have, not just for motive's of everyone involved, but for all aspects of the story too.

Totally agree. It's not enough to just say "EN went to the Meyers cul de sac and shot TM." Yeah, we're pretty sure that's what happened, but that doesn't even begin to explain what happened.

There are so many parts to this story that just don't make sense. Unfortunately, I have a sinking feeling that even if we eventually learn all the details of what happened, it still won't make sense.
 
  • #363
According to neighbors EN's life went rapidly downhill when his dad committed suicide. One neighbor says he would walk around the neighborhood with a gun and another neighbor says EN would get so intoxicated he couldn't walk:
http://www.pressreader.com/usa/las-vegas-review-journal/20150221/281505044663202/TextView
While the neighbor who thinks this was related to a drug deal says EN would go around the neighborhood shouting out that he had weed to sell:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nned-19-year-old-said-buying-Xanax-years.html
 
  • #364
Unfortunately, I have a sinking feeling that even if we eventually learn all the details of what happened, it still won't make sense.

To quote Judge Judy, "If it doesn't make sense, it probably isn't true." There should be at least an internal logic to how individuals act and the case as a whole even if an individuals' single action isn't itself logical act. If it doesn't make sense, there won't be a conviction. It's actually rather odd in how the neighborhood drugged-out drug dealer appears to have acted among the most logically of all the participants.
 
  • #365
I'd like to think once Audi driver id ID'ed, located, & gives stmt, we'll 'know' more.
What does Audi driver tell LE? Something like this?

At time XX:XX, EN phoned me, said Pick me up.
I drove to park.
EN got in car in front passenger seat, said Take me home.
I started driving toward his home.

So far, so good. Audi driver does friend a small favor, a few min. time, 1/8 gal gas.
No big illegal activity, no compelling reason to lie.
Maybe breaking curfew, no consent to drive dad's car, but driver tells LE the truth.

EN said, Ppl in Buick are _ (drug deal gone bad? GF being mean? Brandishing gun?)
Let's chase Buick. (I'm want $ back. My drugs back. Show that b****h. Shoot back?)
At intersection of Y & Z sts, I started following Buick.

Is this the point at which driver has reason to start shading his stmt? ITS.
Is driver an Eagle Scout-honor student-choir boy? No reason to lie about anything? IDK.
Unemployed h/s dropout, w 'hood rep for throwing punches, pulling knives, dealing a bit?
Does driver have history of arrests, convictions, outstanding warrants? IDK.

What's next in his stmt? IDK.
Will his stmt be sound basis for learning the truth or if it will just be another version?
Color me skeptical.
 
  • #366
I'd like to think once Audi driver id ID'ed, located, & gives stmt, we'll 'know' more.
What does Audi driver tell LE? Something like this?

At time XX:XX, EN phoned me, said Pick me up.
I drove to park.
EN got in car in front passenger seat, said Take me home.
I started driving toward his home.

So far, so good. Audi driver does friend a small favor, a few min. time, 1/8 gal gas.
No big illegal activity, no compelling reason to lie.
Maybe breaking curfew, no consent to drive dad's car, but driver tells LE the truth.

EN said, Ppl in Buick are _ (drug deal gone bad? GF being mean? Brandishing gun?)
Let's chase Buick. (I'm want $ back. My drugs back. Show that b****h. Shoot back?)
At intersection of Y & Z sts, I started following Buick.

Is this the point at which driver has reason to start shading his stmt? ITS.
Is driver an Eagle Scout-honor student-choir boy? No reason to lie about anything? IDK.
Unemployed h/s dropout, w 'hood rep for throwing punches, pulling knives, dealing a bit?
Does driver have history of arrests, convictions, outstanding warrants? IDK.

What's next in his stmt? IDK.
Will his stmt be sound basis for learning the truth or if it will just be another version?
Color me skeptical.

BBM: "Let's chase Buick."

I don't think that happened. In EN's description to his friends, and in BM's description to police, it started with the green car following/chasing the Audi, not the other way around. According to both EN's friends and BM, the Audi didn't follow or chase the Buick until after the first shooting.

This also seems to support my theory that there was just the one continuous incident. KM's description has the silver car following the Meyers' Buick for quite a long ways, but EN doesn't mention anything like that to his friends. EN's description of the car pursuit pretty much matches BM's description of the car pursuit. First, the green car followed/chased the silver car, then the first shooting scene, then the silver car followed or chased the green car to the Meyers cul de sac.
 
  • #367
Nope. At that point, the story was still that TM & KM were out having driving lessons. MM believed (or pretended that he believed) that TM & KM were having driving lessons, that there was a road rage incident, that KM & TM were followed home, and that BM came outside to return fire as KM ran into the house. That was the first story. That was the story as reported in the linked article. That was the story MM was talking about in that article.

Also from that article:

"Las Vegas police are still trying to sort out who fired first."
and
"My brother saw the gun, he started popping shots at the dude," Matthew said, noting that it’s still unclear who fired first.

As of now, we only have BM's word that the Audi fired first. Regardless of what else did or didn't happen, and regardless of one car chase or two, we still only have BM's word that the Audi fired first.

I'm still not convinced that the silver car fired first. We know BM is a hothead. We know he was out with his gun hunting for the Audi, and then chasing it. (We know these things to be true whether he was with mom or sis, and whether there was one car chase or two.) It wouldn't be at all surprising to me to learn that he fired first in the cul de sac.

But at the first shooting location the Audi fired first which means, IMO, that BM would have a right to fire 1st once at his house because he now knows the Audi has a gun and is out to get them. This, IMO, would be self defense...
 
  • #368
To quote Judge Judy, "If it doesn't make sense, it probably isn't true." There should be at least an internal logic to how individuals act and the case as a whole even if an individuals' single action isn't itself logical act. If it doesn't make sense, there won't be a conviction. It's actually rather odd in how the neighborhood drugged-out drug dealer appears to have acted among the most logically of all the participants.

JMO, BBM. Exactly. And plenty of parents of teens will tell you that...they've heard a whopper or three. You just keep them talking. And I agree that all the convoluted stories will not help with a conviction. How could you give credibility to someone who seems to manufacture stories about their own mom's death?


And all the versions of the nights events (and after) told by the M's are just bizarre to me. Why would they all go down the road of multiple and changing stories after losing their Mom? I can only assume they are afraid of consequences. Are those societal embarrassment? Legal?

And for TM, I am sorry she's gone. Whatever happened, she doesn't get another day.

Lots have asked why her friends haven't said a word. I have my own thoughts on that. It could be that she was dearly loved by friends, but they also knew she had "problems." What could they say in a situation like that? Silence is more loyal than trying to explain the unexplainable. Or lying, which they probably don't want to do.

Why was she spending time with EN? Mentoring? Nope. I just don't see EN sitting there and dutifully nodding as she talked/lectured about "pulling up pants and being a man". That just sounds like yet another whopper to me.

So what happened between these folks? Whatever the reason, there was a ton of anger and rage. I think that kind of intense anger...grab a gun and go a huntin'....is totally irrational. What caused both the M's and EN to become engulfed in rage? Money? drugs? Personal relationships? Other? The only thing certain to me is that we haven't heard the truth yet.
 
  • #369
To quote Judge Judy, "If it doesn't make sense, it probably isn't true." There should be at least an internal logic to how individuals act and the case as a whole even if an individuals' single action isn't itself logical act. If it doesn't make sense, there won't be a conviction. It's actually rather odd in how the neighborhood drugged-out drug dealer appears to have acted among the most logically of all the participants.

LOL! I agree with Judge Judy. And that's a large part of why I have so much trouble believing anything the Meyerses have said. Because none of it makes sense!
 
  • #370
If being a passenger eliminated responsibility for aggression, most drive by shooters would be innocent.

Do we have to view the two shooting scenes as two separate incidents? Doing that makes each side an aggressor at different points. Viewing it as one incident that spread out over time and space, makes BM the aggressor since he brandished his gun first.

Adrenaline can cause people to chase after someone after being attacked even after being safe. I've only been in one fight in my life, back in middle school. She was the aggressor. She hit me. I jumped her and I continually went after her after she got away from me. I even hit a teacher who was trying to separate us. I just kept lunging back at the girl. The fight started near a locker and ended in a classroom a few classrooms down the hall from where it started. I did NOT know what I was doing once my adrenaline kicked my fight/flight response. There was no actual thinking process about safety or tactics. The body just reacts.

That's why I view the two shooting scenes as one long prolonged incident, not two separate incidents were the aggressors changed roles.
 
  • #371
If we go with Brandon's statement as described in the arrest affidavit:

"[t]he front passenger leaned partially out of the passenger window and began firing"
"when the passenger began shooting he returned fire with his 9mm pistol firing three times toward the driver of the silver car"

Then, further down:

"Brandon said the silver car backed out of the Cul-de-Sac"

I'm having trouble picturing that sequence of events as described by Brandon.


I've seen the street (Mt. Shasta) in person so I can see the Audi backing out of it because had the Audi make the full turn, that would really put them in the line of fire. I also would like to know why 22 shots were fired from EN? Why so many in that short amount of time and only one bullet actually hit and killed ONE person. Per the police report, EN said he shot at the person running towards the house from the passenger side of the car and started shooting at that person and the car. So, who was running towards the house from the passenger side of the car? was in BM?
 
  • #372
BBM: "Let's chase Buick."....
I don't think that happened....
. bbm sbm
sonjay
Yes, you're right, I got it backward. So instead, let's insert EN saying,
That Buick is behind us, so let's --what?
(I won't give $ back. Won't give drugs back. Show that b****h. Shoot back?)
Driver: At intersection of Y & Z sts, I started ----
what?
Then EN said -- what?

What's next in his stmt- what he said & did, what EN said & did? IDK.
Will his stmt be sound basis for learning the truth or if it will just be another version?
Color me skeptical.
 
  • #373
KM's description has the silver car following the Meyers' Buick for quite a long ways, but EN doesn't mention anything like that to his friends. EN's description of the car pursuit pretty much matches BM's description of the car pursuit. First, the green car followed/chased the silver car, then the first shooting scene, then the silver car followed or chased the green car to the Meyers cul de sac.

I've read it two ways. One possibility is that the Audi driver had the verbal confrontation on his way to pick up EN, which the Buick then drove home followed by returning to the school. Alternatively EN does mention there was an 'exchange' that preceded any of the shooting incidents, which this could mean EN was present for all the events between the cars with this being a continuous chase.
 
  • #374
If being a passenger eliminated responsibility for aggression, most drive by shooters would be innocent.

Do we have to view the two shooting scenes as two separate incidents? Doing that makes each side an aggressor at different points. Viewing it as one incident that spread out over time and space, makes BM the aggressor since he brandished his gun first.

Adrenaline can cause people to chase after someone after being attacked even after being safe. I've only been in one fight in my life, back in middle school. She was the aggressor. She hit me. I jumped her and I continually went after her long after she tried to get away from me. I even hit a teacher who was trying to separate us. I just kept lunging back at the girl. The fight started near a locker and ended in a classroom a few classrooms down the hall from where it started. I did NOT know what I was doing once my adrenaline kicked my fight/flight response. There was no actual thinking process about safety or tactics. The body just reacts.

That's why I view the two shooting scenes as one long prolonged incident, not two separate incidents were the aggressors changed roles.

BBM: I agree with this, it is all the same incident. I also think that BM said he fired back (at the house) after the Audi started shooting first.
 
  • #375
This thread flies! I have so many posts I want/need to respond to. You are all very fast typers!
 
  • #376
But at the first shooting location the Audi fired first which means, IMO, that BM would have a right to fire 1st once at his house because he now knows the Audi has a gun and is out to get them. This, IMO, would be self defense...

EN claimed he saw the Buick passenger with a gun being waved at the Audi, which might be true. Conversely it is true that BM was shot at. Both sides have a legal claim to self-defense as one doesn't preclude the other. It is undisputed BM was driving around with a gun in a car that chased BM. If BM ever was criminally charged over this, I think he could make a sufficient claim to self-defense, but just because he'd win in court it doesn't mean I don't think EN didn't see BM's gun when the Buick chased the Audi.
 
  • #377
This thread flies! I have so many posts I want/need to respond to. You are all very fast typers!


LOL, I agree. I sometimes come up with a scenario, type away, then go back to read more, only to find someone else posted similar theory's .. :crazy:
 
  • #378
If being a passenger eliminated responsibility for aggression, most drive by shooters would be innocent.

Do we have to view the two shooting scenes as two separate incidents? Doing that makes each side an aggressor at different points. Viewing it as one incident that spread out over time and space, makes BM the aggressor since he brandished his gun first.

Adrenaline can cause people to chase after someone after being attacked even after being safe. I've only been in one fight in my life, back in middle school. She was the aggressor. She hit me. I jumped her and I continually went after her long after she tried to get away from me. I even hit a teacher who was trying to separate us. I just kept lunging back at the girl. The fight started near a locker and ended in a classroom a few classrooms down the hall from where it started. I did NOT know what I was doing once my adrenaline kicked my fight/flight response. There was no actual thinking process about safety or tactics. The body just reacts.

That's why I view the two shooting scenes as one long prolonged incident, not two separate incidents were the aggressors changed roles.

BBM. No, we don't have to. :) As SpanishInq said upthread, a lot of that would depend on how good the legal representation is.

There's no single bright-line definition for when it changes from one incident to two. In general, the greater the break -- in time, in physical distance -- between two things, the more likely it is that they'll be viewed as two separate incidents.

If the Audi had waited an hour, then gone to the cul de sac, that would be pretty darn likely to be viewed as a completely separate incident.

If the Meyers car had fled to their home 20 miles away, and the Audi followed them or pursued them that distance, that would be pretty likely to be viewed as two separate incidents.

If the Audi stopped shooting (at the first shooting scene), and the Buick didn't move, but sat there, waited 30 seconds, and then started shooting back, that would (IMO) be pretty likely to be seen as one single incident.

If this case ends up in court, and if it's defended as a self-defense case, and if it hinges on who was the aggressor at the cul de sac, I would imagine the attorneys will spend a fair amount of time on exactly how far it was from shooting scene #1 to shooting scene #2, and how long it took to get there, and things of that nature. If EN takes the stand, or if the driver takes the stand, I'm sure there will be questions like, "Did you, before you turned into the cul de sac, think about just going home?" and "Did you still feel that you were in danger from the people in the other car" and so forth. Defense would be trying to minimize the break between shootings, and prosecution would be trying to maximize it. IMO, JMO, MOO, and all that jazz.
 
  • #379
EN claimed he saw the Buick passenger with a gun being waved at the Audi, which might be true. Conversely it is true that BM was shot at. Both sides have a legal claim to self-defense as one doesn't preclude the other. It is undisputed BM was driving around with a gun in a car that chased BM. If BM ever was criminally charged over this, I think he could make a sufficient claim to self-defense, but just because he'd win in court it doesn't mean I don't think EN didn't see BM's gun when the Buick chased the Audi.


BBM: I don't recall EN saying it was a passenger waving the gun, he said someone in the Buick he THOUGHT was waving a gun. :crazy: Am I missing something? EEK!
 
  • #380
BBM: I don't recall EN saying it was a passenger waving the gun, he said someone in the Buick he THOUGHT was waving a gun. :crazy: Am I missing something? EEK!

Let's look at the source:

Altergott: "Nowsch told Altergott he thought he saw a gun being pointed from the window of the green car"

Krisztian: "Nowsch said someone in the green car was waving a gun out of the window."

All we can really tell is that EN told his friends something about someone in the green car having a gun. We don't know exactly what he said, because A & K don't quite agree.
 
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