GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #4

[SpanishInquisition]

Using Google Maps as I'm not from Vegas I plotted the directions of the two alleged trips. The first trip says 10 minutes @ about 3 miles while the second trip says 7 minutes @ 2.5 files. To those in the area, does that sound correct that the total time in the car for the Meyers would have been approximately 15-20 minutes?

There's been a few things I've been trying to figure out by using Maps/StreetView:
* The first was where in the park was EN for him to even take notice and concern of the Buick in the first place. Using StreetView the only location the jumped out at me was on the covered benches at the search and rescue center (330 Villa Monterey), which if you're on those benches you'd having a very clear view of what's going on across the street at one of the school's parking lots.
* Second what isn't clear is when BM saw EN in the Audi and what the cars were doing at the time. BM says they drove up behind the parked Audi on Ducharme while it sounds like EN is saying he was the one in the moving car driving by the school when the Buick was waiting in the main school parking lot for him and then took off after him. I don't know if this matters, but it is a discrepancy and it could matter in trying to figure out if this was one continuous even or two events.
* The third thing is the alleged details of the Villa Monterey shooting. The length on Villa Monterey between Ducharme and Alta is about 1200 feet, so this was something that happened over a short distance/time. Reading between the lines it does sound as if BM is trying to give sneaky answers to LE about the drive on Villa Monterey to the point where he might have put something by LE. BM puts the Audi about 500 feet away (Buick 50 feet south from Cherry with the Audi at the intersection of Villa Monterey and Alta), which there's something wrong there and I'd really like to get the details on the first shooting scene. BM's details on when the Buick was fired upon compared to EN's details don't quite align unless there was some time for EN to get his gun ready. When the Audi driver saw that EN was finally armed he ready the driver might have decided to stop the car and that's when EN decided to shoot...alternatively EN could have started firing from a moving car when the Audi fleeing.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Using Google Maps as I'm not from Vegas I plotted the directions of the two alleged trips. The first trip says 10 minutes @ about 3 miles while the second trip says 7 minutes @ 2.5 files. To those in the area, does that sound correct that the total time in the car for the Meyers would have been approximately 15-20 minutes?

Do we know what time TM was shot?

 

[PaperDoll]

Using Google Maps as I'm not from Vegas I plotted the directions of the two alleged trips. The first trip says 10 minutes @ about 3 miles while the second trip says 7 minutes @ 2.5 files. To those in the area, does that sound correct that the total time in the car for the Meyers would have been approximately 15-20 minutes?

There's been a few things I've been trying to figure out by using Maps/StreetView:
* The first was where in the park was EN for him to even take notice and concern of the Buick in the first place. Using StreetView the only location the jumped out at me was on the covered benches at the search and rescue center (330 Villa Monterey), which if you're on those benches you'd having a very clear view of what's going on across the street at one of the school's parking lots.
* Second what isn't clear is when BM saw EN in the Audi and what the cars were doing at the time. BM says they drove up behind the parked Audi on Ducharme while it sounds like EN is saying he was the one in the moving car driving by the school when the Buick was waiting in the main school parking lot for him and then took off after him. I don't know if this matters, but it is a discrepancy and it could matter in trying to figure out if this was one continuous even or two events.
* The third thing is the alleged details of the Villa Monterey shooting. The length on Villa Monterey between Ducharme and Alta is about 1200 feet, so this was something that happened over a short distance/time. Reading between the lines it does sound as if BM is trying to give sneaky answers to LE about the drive on Villa Monterey to the point where he might have put something by LE. BM puts the Audi about 500 feet away (Buick 50 feet south from Cherry with the Audi at the intersection of Villa Monterey and Alta), which there's something wrong there and I'd really like to get the details on the first shooting scene. BM's details on when the Buick was fired upon compared to EN's details don't quite align unless there was some time for EN to get his gun ready. When the Audi driver saw that EN was finally armed he ready the driver might have decided to stop the car and that's when EN decided to shoot...alternatively EN could have started firing from a moving car when the Audi fleeing.

The minutes sound about right. The distance from Ducharme/Villa MOnterey and Alta isn't that long of a drive. When the Audi was sitting on Ducharme and Sam Jonas and the Buick pulled up behind them, the Audi turned on Villa Monterey, the school would be on the left (drivers side) and the school is the full length of Villa Monterey. There is also another parking lot on the other side of the school and you can see that parking lot from Sam Jonas and Ducharme. Maybe the Buick was in that parking lot when EN was in the Audi. The park is directly across the street from the school and depending on where you are in the park, you can see the school parking lot. It's a small parking lot compared to the one on the other side of the school near Buffalo and Sam Jonas. (I hope this makes sense, hard to concentrate when my little dog wants in my lap).. lol

 

[Luvrosco]

O

LOL, I don't know why. Hubby and I moved here from Southern CA a little over 3 years ago. I prefer CA anytime over Vegas but Vegas has no state income tax and that is why we left CA. There are nice communities here in Vegas, it's not all about the Strip. Our neighborhood has high walls so you can't see into your neighbors back yard that is behind you. I can see my one next door neighbors back yard if I'm on my balcony upstairs. I'm not crazy about our backyard because the walls are high and feels like a "prison". Kind of strange but that is the way some houses are built.. :crazy:

My dad lived in Vegas for 22 years. He said the concrete walls were also built a long time ago to keep out snakes. I don't know if it's true or just an old wives tale.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Do we know what time TM was shot?

Just after 11:20 PM

 

[Miss Muffet]

Just after 11:20 PM

That's 30 minutes from 2250 until 11:20.

Can you define what you calculated as first trip and second trip? Is the 7 minute second trip after TM took over the wheel at the school to when she went back to the house to get BM? Or did you include that driving in first trip's 10 minutes?

The reason I ask is because I'm not interested in the two separate trips of KM/TM and BM/TM. I'm interested in the driving times from after 2250 from the moment TM took over the wheel at the school until 11:20 when she was shot. Was there enough time for that in the 30 minutes? Including enough time to wait for BM and his gun at the house? Including enough time to hunker down while being shot at the first scene?

Is there enough time for everything stated in the warrant to occur between 2250 and 11:30?

If not, that tells me something important. If it does, it tells me something else too. lol

 

[SpanishInquisition]

When the Audi was sitting on Ducharme and Sam Jonas and the Buick pulled up behind them, the Audi turned on Villa Monterey, the school would be on the left (drivers side) and the school is the full length of Villa Monterey.

This actually is part of what I don't get as to why the Audi was in that location to begin with. If the Audi had arrived there after EN's call, that would mean that EN had to walk toward the school and across the street in order reach it, which is putting him directly in harms way that kind of defeats the very purpose of calling for the Audi in the first place as he could be run over or shot before he ever reached it (unless he knew the Audi driver was armed). While per Krisztian he was in the Audi as they drove past the school on Ducharme when the Audi chased them, which I don't understand why he was driving past the school unless he had just walked over to the Audi and been picked up and was driving away. I'm just not getting why EN was in that potentially dangerous area in the first place as it seems like EN didn't want a fight....maybe EN wanted to show the Audi driver who he was afraid of, like how Meyers wanted to find the Buick, just EN had no desire to chase unlike Meyers.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Can you define what you calculated as first trip and second trip? Is the 7 minute second trip after TM took over the wheel at the school to when she went back to the house to get BM? Or did you include that driving in first trip's 10 minutes?

Without naming all the streets I went from the Villa Monterey parking lot (when TM alleged started to drive after KM finished) to Alta to Durango to Westcliff to Cimarro, etc to the Meyers House for Trip #1. For Trip #2 I started from the Meyers house going to Alta to Cimarron to Westcliff to Buffalo to Ducharme, etc back to the Meyers home.

The reason I ask is because I'm not interested in the two separate trips of KM/TM and BM/TM. I'm interested in the driving times from after 2250 from the moment TM took over the wheel at the school until 11:20 when she was shot.

Those are one in the same, depending on how you believe it went down, which that was my purpose in doing in order to grapple with it being one trip or two trips. I'm covering the period from 2250 to 2320 and that involves both KM/TM and BM/TM per the allegations.

Was there enough time for that in the 30 minutes? Including enough time to wait for BM and his gun at the house? Including enough time to hunker down while being shot at the first scene?
Is there enough time for everything stated in the warrant to occur between 2250 and 11:30?
If not, that tells me something important. If it does, it tells me something else too. lol

I think there can be time, just it all depends on how much time you give for the non-driving events. What I'm trying to figure is who made the alleged threats and if EN even knew about them. There's that first verbal confrontation scene has to be accounted for. In the two trip scenario the Audi is in route to pick up EN when they run into the Buick without EN in the car where eventually the Audi driver goes Carmel Peak -> Alta -> Buffalo -> Ducharme to pick up EN, which would explain why the Audi was where it was. In a one trip scenario it would have either taken less time or been rather hairy. Interestingly I believe one of the LEs gave the timeframe of 5-10 minutes for the relevant events rather than 20 or 30 minutes.

 

[sonjay]

If anyone should become aware of any evidence whatsoever in support of the driving lessons or the road rage, I hope you'll post it here.

So far, there is nothing but KM's story that there was a driving lesson, or that there was any road rage, or that a 6' man got out of the silver car and threatened to "come back for you and your daughter," or that there was a sideswipe or a bike-lane passing or a spin-out or an escape from the silver car followed by a trip home before going back out again.

If we just chop off the entire KM driving lesson/road rage story, the rest of the story forms a cohesive whole and comports with the known evidence.

I'm having trouble thinking of any reason to believe the driving lesson or road rage ever happened.

 

[Miss Muffet]

Those are one in the same, depending on how you believe it went down, which that was my purpose in doing in order to grapple with it being one trip or two trips. I'm covering the period from 2250 to 2320 and that involves both KM/TM and BM/TM per the allegations.

I think there can be time, just it all depends on how much time you give for the non-driving events. What I'm trying to figure is who made the alleged threats and if EN even knew about them. There's that first verbal confrontation scene has to be accounted for. In the two trip scenario the Audi is in route to pick up EN when they run into the Buick without EN in the car where eventually the Audi driver goes Carmel Peak -> Alta -> Buffalo -> Ducharme to pick up EN, which would explain why the Audi was where it was. In a one trip scenario it would have either taken less time or been rather hairy. Interestingly I believe one of the LEs gave the timeframe of 5-10 minutes for the relevant events rather than 20 or 30 minutes.

I think we're onto something that might help shed light. I'm going to work on this tomorrow too and we can compare notes.

 

[Miss Muffet]

If anyone should become aware of any evidence whatsoever in support of the driving lessons or the road rage, I hope you'll post it here.

So far, there is nothing but KM's story that there was a driving lesson, or that there was any road rage, or that a 6' man got out of the silver car and threatened to "come back for you and your daughter," or that there was a sideswipe or a bike-lane passing or a spin-out or an escape from the silver car followed by a trip home before going back out again.

If we just chop off the entire KM driving lesson/road rage story, the rest of the story forms a cohesive whole and comports with the known evidence.

I'm having trouble thinking of any reason to believe the driving lesson or road rage ever happened.

I'm not going to hastily rule anything out so quickly. We ruled important things out two weeks ago. Like believing there wasn't any evidence TM was in the car. I don't want to make the same mistake again. If I come across anything supporting what you mentioned, I promise to share it.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

If anyone should become aware of any evidence whatsoever in support of the driving lessons or the road rage, I hope you'll post it here.

So far, there is nothing but KM's story that there was a driving lesson, or that there was any road rage, or that a 6' man got out of the silver car and threatened to "come back for you and your daughter," or that there was a sideswipe or a bike-lane passing or a spin-out or an escape from the silver car followed by a trip home before going back out again.

If we just chop off the entire KM driving lesson/road rage story, the rest of the story forms a cohesive whole and comports with the known evidence.

I'm having trouble thinking of any reason to believe the driving lesson or road rage ever happened.

Yes, it would be nice to remove it, but unfortunately I believe there is physical evidence to support a prior event of some kind. There's lots of good quotes here, which some of it may be dismissed as hearsay from RM, however he talks about physical evidence (skid marks) of where the alleged verbal confrontation took place...the driving lessons may not have happened, but something happened there:

“This guy got in front of my wife and didn't allow her to leave,” relates Robert Meyers. The victim’s husband continued to describe the events of that deadly day. “The skid marks are still there. Then he got out of his car, approaching them saying ‘I’m going to kill both of you!’ As soon as he heads back to his vehicle, Tammy spun around and sped home. He saw her taillights turn right. If you watch the video, it shows him go straight past our street. He was looking for our street.”

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/02/20/husband-tammy-meyers-road-rage-victim-events-leading-murder
The first bolded section speaks to there being physical evidence, which is why I've always considered that something happened there although what happened could be vastly different than the Meyers claim. The second bolded section about the CCTV video is a problem as RM says that was when the Audi drove by the first time after the verbal confrontation, yet the clip is timed at 11:22 that is exactly the time the Audi would have been fleeing the Meyers home shootout scene. Both the Audi and the Buick should be seen twice if RM's description of the camera's location is correct (though he may be wrong, but at least the Audi should be seen twice if the camera is somewhere on Royal Peak).

Here's the link to the CCTV screen captures:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rder-mother-just-teaching-daughter-drive.html

 

[Miss Muffet]

Here's the link to the CCTV screen captures:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rder-mother-just-teaching-daughter-drive.html

Super magnify this one. Check it at 400% 600% 800% 1000%.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/02/16/25B9586500000578-2955202-image-a-273_1424068479921.jpg

It looks like there's someone standing in the driveway behind the Audi. The figure definitely looks like a person standing behind something like a garbage can or low pillar at the side end of the driveway. There's something else in the top left corner that looks like a person in the middle of the road, but I think that one is just the tree branches creating that appears. The driveway seems like a possible witness though.

The second bolded section about the CCTV video is a problem as RM says that was when the Audi drove by the first time after the verbal confrontation, yet the clip is timed at 11:22 that is exactly the time the Audi would have been fleeing the Meyers home shootout scene. Both the Audi and the Buick should be seen twice if RM's description of the camera's location is correct (though he may be wrong, but at least the Audi should be seen twice if the camera is somewhere on Royal Peak).

Is there possibly another video out there on the internet somewhere? I'm sure LE has secured video from many security cameras along the various streets. We're only seeing a small part of their evidence. I'm going to try to identify the location of these pictures via landscaping and such. They could have been captured by a camera on a street closer to the M's house and RM is referencing video he has seen from a different camera.

.

 

[PaperDoll]

This actually is part of what I don't get as to why the Audi was in that location to begin with. If the Audi had arrived there after EN's call, that would mean that EN had to walk toward the school and across the street in order reach it, which is putting him directly in harms way that kind of defeats the very purpose of calling for the Audi in the first place as he could be run over or shot before he ever reached it (unless he knew the Audi driver was armed). While per Krisztian he was in the Audi as they drove past the school on Ducharme when the Audi chased them, which I don't understand why he was driving past the school unless he had just walked over to the Audi and been picked up and was driving away. I'm just not getting why EN was in that potentially dangerous area in the first place as it seems like EN didn't want a fight....maybe EN wanted to show the Audi driver who he was afraid of, like how Meyers wanted to find the Buick, just EN had no desire to chase unlike Meyers.

I've always thought the Audi parked there after the very 1st contact with the Buick, when KM and TM were in the car after the driving lesson at the school. When TM and KM fled home, I was thinking maybe the Audi lost them and decided to park on Ducharme. But your theory makes sense if indeed that is where the Audi picked EN up. This is what I'm not understanding about EN feeling threatened by the Buick at the school because if he felt so threatened that someone was after him, he could have simply went home. His home isn't far from the park. I wish I knew where and when the Audi came to pick EN up. We don't have any info on that, do we? Also the Audi could have picked him up on the other end of the park away from the school then parked on Ducharme/Sam Jonas..

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I was going to do an edit to my last post, but given what I've found, I thought I'd do a new post instead. The CCTV footage was taken elsewhere than has been described. The CCTV camera does not show - nor can it show since it is physically impossible - the Audi driving along Carmel Peak past Mt Shasta as RM stated in my previous post, but instead what it shows is that at 11:22 PM the Audi was driving EAST on Cherry River and turning on Carmel Peak. BM's description of events states it was driving WEST. If this is the case, it would lean toward this being a single event, though if that's the case I'm still trying to make sense of where everyone had been going spatially leading up to the fatal shooting.

Alternative scenarios with this new info that is that that the CCTV time was an hour off, so the car in the picture drove by at 10:22 mean a couple things. This would mean the verbal altercation happened around 10:15 and that something like an hour elapsed from the first event to the fatal shooting or that something else is off. Also this could mean that the car pictured has nothing to do with the case.

 

[sonjay]

Yes, it would be nice to remove it, but unfortunately I believe there is physical evidence to support a prior event of some kind. There's lots of good quotes here, which some of it may be dismissed as hearsay from RM, however he talks about physical evidence (skid marks) of where the alleged verbal confrontation took place...the driving lessons may not have happened, but something happened there:

Something happened where, exactly? Do we have any confirmation from police that there are any skid marks at whatever location RM is talking about? Just because RM says there are skid marks, it doesn't mean there are skid marks. RM has said a lot of things.

Even if there are skid marks, they might not be related to the car chase.

Even if they are related to the car chase, they might be part of the car chase that we know occurred, the one with TM & BM in the car chasing EN.

Skid marks are not evidence of driving lessons or of road rage.

If you watch the video, it shows him go straight past our street. He was looking for our street.”

The second bolded section about the CCTV video is a problem as RM says that was when the Audi drove by the first time after the verbal confrontation, yet the clip is timed at 11:22 that is exactly the time the Audi would have been fleeing the Meyers home shootout scene. Both the Audi and the Buick should be seen twice if RM's description of the camera's location is correct (though he may be wrong, but at least the Audi should be seen twice if the camera is somewhere on Royal Peak).

First, surveillance video of a silver car driving down a street is not, in any way, shape or form, evidence of road rage or driving lessons.

Second I have still seen no information whatsoever on the location of that surveillance video, which street it's showing, or which way it shows the silver car traveling.

Third, EN knew TM and knew the green Buick. He lived only a few houses away and just around the corner from them. He didn't have to "look for their street" -- he knew exactly where it was. Also, a video that shows the silver car going past the Meyers street, if that is in fact what it shows, is evidence of absolutely nothing. A video of the silver car roaring up Mt. Shasta, guns a'blazing, would be a lot better.

Fourth, I'd guess that same surveillance video shows the Meyers car going by on that self-same street. EN could say, "They were looking for my house."

I'm still looking for any evidence whatsoever that any driving lessons took place that night, or any evidence that any road rage occurred. So far, I've come up empty-handed.

The story without the driving lessons and road rage form a cohesive whole.

The story with the driving lessons and the road rage raises many, many questions that don't appear to have any answers.

TM and KM somehow randomly and coincidentally get in a road rage incident with their neighbor? The one that TM has consoled, counseled, fed, etc. etc.? EN sitting in the park saw the Buick practicing driving and for no reason at all decided it was "after him"? The family knew all along their "road rager" was EN but they made up a BS story for police in which they had no clue who the road rager was?

After TM and KM escape from the road rager, instead of calling 911 why would they go home and get BM and his gun and go out to look for the road rager? Truly, totally, seriously, if you're innocently having driving lessons and get accosted and chased by a road rager, you call 911. You don't go home and get a gun and go back out looking for him.

Why did the road rage story change so much? First it was a crash. Then there was no crash, but someone who thought they were going too slow and the whole road rage happened simply because KM honked at him. Then there was a "side swipe" that tore off some of the Buick's side molding. Oh, and yeah, later on there was also a bike lane passing and side skid and a man threatening them -- although for some reason all of these details dribbled out later in bits & pieces.

The random Audi driver gets sooooo mad purely because KM honks her horn that he chases them all over, skids out, blocks their path, and threatens to come back and "get" them? All that from a honked horn?

What were they intending to do when they found the road rager? Just say "Oh, there he is" and then go on home?

If they knew it was EN, why not just wait and give him a stern talking-to the next day? If they didn't know it was EN, how on earth did they possibly think they were going to find him?

Why would BM go along with it? Why would he not stop his mom from going back out, and call 911 himself? Why would his mom be so insistent that she was going with or without him? Really? A 44-year-old woman is going to go out by herself and hunt down a car full of angry young male road ragers? OMG SRSLY?

These questions just go on and on on if we try to wrap our heads around the road rage story. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't fit. It requires waaaaaaay too many coincidences and waaaaaay too much irrational behavior.

But if we throw out the driving lesson/road rage story as a cover story for the TM & BM hunting for EN part, then the whole thing comes together and makes sense.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

This is what I'm not understanding about EN feeling threatened by the Buick at the school because if he felt so threatened that someone was after him, he could have simply went home. His home isn't far from the park. I wish I knew where and when the Audi came to pick EN up. We don't have any info on that, do we? Also the Audi could have picked him up on the other end of the park away from the school then parked on Ducharme/Sam Jonas..

EN wasn't allowed to go home that night as his mom had temporarily banned him. Me too on where/when EN got picked up as I don't understand why he'd go to/return the area that he considered dangerous. If EN was picked up elsewhere, I don't see why EN/driver would go along Ducharme by the school unless the Audi driver wanted to see what EN was talking about.

 

[sonjay]

I was going to do an edit to my last post, but given what I've found, I thought I'd do a new post instead. The CCTV footage was taken elsewhere than has been described. The CCTV camera does not show - nor can it show since it is physically impossible - the Audi driving along Carmel Peak past Mt Shasta as RM stated in my previous post, but instead what it shows is that at 11:22 PM the Audi was driving EAST on Cherry River and turning on Carmel Peak. BM's description of events states it was driving WEST. If this is the case, it would lean toward this being a single event, though if that's the case I'm still trying to make sense of where everyone had been going spatially leading up to the fatal shooting.

Alternative scenarios with this new info that is that that the CCTV time was an hour off, so the car in the picture drove by at 10:22 mean a couple things. This would mean the verbal altercation happened around 10:15 and that something like an hour elapsed from the first event to the fatal shooting or that something else is off. Also this could mean that the car pictured has nothing to do with the case.

Can you share with us how you know that? I've been unable to find that information anywhere.

ETA: Using Google Street View, I had found a house on Cherry River just west of the park that I thought might be the house. Did you find the same thing? Or did you get your information on this from somewhere else?

 

[Miss Muffet]

I was going to do an edit to my last post, but given what I've found, I thought I'd do a new post instead. The CCTV footage was taken elsewhere than has been described. The CCTV camera does not show - nor can it show since it is physically impossible - the Audi driving along Carmel Peak past Mt Shasta as RM stated in my previous post, but instead what it shows is that at 11:22 PM the Audi was driving EAST on Cherry River and turning on Carmel Peak. BM's description of events states it was driving WEST. If this is the case, it would lean toward this being a single event, though if that's the case I'm still trying to make sense of where everyone had been going spatially leading up to the fatal shooting.

Thanks for clarifying. I was looking at the street views and ruled out it being on Mt. Shasta, Carmel Peak, Westcliff, and Alta.

Alternative scenarios with this new info that is that that the CCTV time was an hour off, so the car in the picture drove by at 10:22 mean a couple things. This would mean the verbal altercation happened around 10:15 and that something like an hour elapsed from the first event to the fatal shooting or that something else is off. Also this could mean that the car pictured has nothing to do with the case.

Forget about comparing Bob's statement for a minute since the Daily Mail could have posted the wrong picture from the wrong CCTV. This video is still relevant in other ways if we can identify the exact location and time. Did you visually verify the camera location for Cherry River or are you utilizing some other written reference? I'll continue scanning the street views if you haven't visually found it.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Can you share with us how you know that? I've been unable to find that information anywhere.
ETA: Using Google Street View, I had found a house on Cherry River just west of the park that I thought might be the house. Did you find the same thing? Or did you get your information on this from somewhere else?

I StreetViewed the scenery until it matched both the house with the CCTV and the house on the other side. The house is right by the intersection of Cherry River and Carmel Peak. You'll see the house with the CCTV camera has a single tree circled by three layers of bricks in a light gravel area on one side of the property and light and dark gravel on the other side while across the street is a house with multiple palm trees of various sizes and other trees.