GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #6

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  • #481
I thought they did tell, and maybe the road rage is the truth??? maybe????? Maybe there is another story that they are hiding???

They told the driving lesson/road rage story as the entire story until about 5 days after the shooting. For five solid days, there was no mention of BM & TM going out with BM's gun to hunt for the road rager.

Why?
 
  • #482
I thought they did tell, and maybe the road rage is the truth??? maybe????? Maybe there is another story that they are hiding???

Until five days after the shooting, the story was the road rager followed TM & KM home and shot TM.

Why?
 
  • #483
Here is what I do know, EN shot and killed a woman that lives one street over from him. EN said there were no shots fired at him and yet he fired off many rounds. The Buick fled the scene after the 1st shooting. EN chased the Buick to their house and opened fire once again. EN fled the scene, went to a friends and switched cars. At the 1st shooting EN was firing shots and someone could have been hit by a bullet, someone who was casually walking the streets but THANK GOD no one else was hurt. He could have kept driving if he felt he was being threatened but he didn't. He didn't need to stay in the area where he felt threatened but he did. In fact the Audi was parked right near the school and park. If he were that afraid he could have left the area or called the police. If he's dealing drugs and doesn't want to have the police involved then he's doing illegal activity.

I do believe EN is telling the truth for the most part. We have not heard much from him and hopefully maybe more docs and audio releases will come out, but for now I'm going by the police report and GJ Transcripts.
 
  • #484
Before getting in that situation is the time to think about it. When you take your gun with you in an attempt to hunt for someone, you better be sure you are mentally and physically ready to handle what happens when you are the aggressor.

Even if a person takes a firearm with them it does not define they are going to be the aggressor or was the aggressor.

I see nothing that shows me BM was the aggressor at anytime. Not in the first shooting location done solely by EN nor at the murder scene when EN fired repeatedly at both TM&BM trying to kill them both and Brandon only got off three self defense shots that hit no one.
 
  • #485
They told the driving lesson/road rage story as the entire story until about 5 days after the shooting. For five solid days, there was no mention of BM & TM going out with BM's gun to hunt for the road rager.

Why?

Well weren't we told why? Didn't RM say "they" knew where he lived so he didn't want to reveal much? Lie or no lie, it's a reason that was given.
 
  • #486
As a mom with a daughter, if some unknown person threatened me and my daughter after a road rage incident, I would drive straight home, lock my doors, and call 911. The whole story we've been told of TM being threatened by someone, going home to get her son and his gun, and then driving around looking for that person has the ring of someone looking to "settle a score", not a mother who was trying to protect her daughter.

EN shot a woman who died, and he should serve time for that crime. I'm not excusing his actions. But everything that happened that night sounds like the actions of angry young men instead of a protective middle-aged mom.
JMO
 
  • #487
So let me ask this question and I'm curious as to the answer :) At the 1st shooting where EN fired his weapon, if someone (and I don't mean TM/BM in the Buick) got killed from one of the bullets, who's fault is it? EN who did the actual shooting, or BM because EN felt threated by him and is claiming self defense?
 
  • #488
As a mom with a daughter, if some unknown person threatened me and my daughter after a road rage incident, I would drive straight home, lock my doors, and call 911. The whole story we've been told of TM being threatened by someone, going home to get her son and his gun, and then driving around looking for that person has the ring of someone looking to "settle a score", not a mother who was trying to protect her daughter.

EN shot a woman who died, and he should serve time for that crime. I'm not excusing his actions. But everything that happened that night sounds like the actions of young, angry men instead of a protective middle-aged mom.
JMO

I agree with you they should have called 911 instead of going out looking. But why making up all this other crazy stuff? The Meyers, IMO, don't have much to hide during all this, they didn't shoot or kill anyone, there is no law saying you can't follow a vehicle or go into a school parking lot. If they really were out looking for EN, why not admit that in the first place? Is there a law against that as well? There were other stories they could have come up with and maybe keep out details that might really get them in trouble.
 
  • #489
I'm trying to patiently await more information.
 
  • #490
The DA has already pre-empted that by as early as the complaint putting it on record that EN was 'coherent' a few hours after the event when he arrived at K and A's. I don't think a defense of Voluntary Impairment would get him very far as even if it was believed, it would only eliminate M1 and Conspiracy (intent crimes), but would still leave open M2 and I'd expect the judge at sentencing would make it a hard M2. I guess I could see doing that where you don't make it a formal part of the defense, but instead only use it to the extent that his confession to A and K weren't accurate in what he said, rather than using it as a justification for his actions.

Good evening SI! I enjoy reading your posts very much.:)

Imo, if the jury follows the letter of the law this will never be M2 and certainly not Manslaughter.

There are way too many premeditated acts done by the driver and the murderer.

1. Suspect opens fire at a first location. No one fired back per EN. The very first location shows he had an intent to harm even though he knew they were not returning fire.
2. Continued to pursue the vehicle even though it backed up turned around and tried to make it back to the safety of the victim's home.
3. DA and EN came right to the property and home of the victim.... opening fire for the second time killing Tammy Myers and had intentions of killing Brandon. The guy with the beard per EN.
4. EN admitted that he came there to kill. Even boasted that he had killed those kids.

Once the driver and EN continued to pursue the fleeing vehicle.... going to their property with the full intentions of murdering them it became as premeditated as it gets. EN became the hunter and the victim became his prey.

EN had a legal right to call 911.
EN had a legal right to go home or to another home or even to the police station.

He did not have any legal right to pursue someone who was trying their best to get away from him. That is simply hunting someone down in order to kill them which is M1 and that is what he tried to do by his own admission and succeeded with TM.

He didn't even have a legal right to shoot at the first location. Even he said the occupants never returned fire.

The intent to kill in this case is glaringly obvious. That was his intent and he tried his best to carry it out.

Imo, this will never be any other verdict other than M1. EN makes his intentions very clear. It may even wind up a death penalty case and he may have a better chance at getting LWOP because of his age.

I suspect since Andrews wasn't the shooter his lawyer will try to do a plea deal in exchange for his testimony in court against EN.
 
  • #491
So let me ask this question and I'm curious as to the answer :) At the 1st shooting where EN fired his weapon, if someone (and I don't mean TM/BM in the Buick) got killed from one of the bullets, who's fault is it? EN who did the actual shooting, or BM because EN felt threated by him and is claiming self defense?

My WAG is that in such a scenario that it would never see a jury for EN, but if it did go before a jury it would come down to whether or not EN's response was what a "reasonable person" would do. If BM/TM were tried - which I don't think either of them necessarily would be - it would be under common law Second Degree Felony Murder based the underlying violent felony being Assault With A Deadly Weapon to EN, which probably not want to take it to trial and would cut a deal with BM/TM for just Assault With A Deadly Weapon and drop the murder charge as part of the plea. Part of being able to find TM/BM guilty for Felony Murder would require a jury to see EN's accidental shooting of a third person as a foreseeable event for BM/TM to be blamed for that in a hypothetical trial.
 
  • #492
I agree with you they should have called 911 instead of going out looking. But why making up all this other crazy stuff? The Meyers, IMO, don't have much to hide during all this, they didn't shoot or kill anyone, there is no law saying you can't follow a vehicle or go into a school parking lot. If they really were out looking for EN, why not admit that in the first place? Is there a law against that as well? There were other stories they could have come up with and maybe keep out details that might really get them in trouble.

Either it happened as they said or they invented the story. Neither scenario really makes sense to me.
 
  • #493
Well weren't we told why? Didn't RM say "they" knew where he lived so he didn't want to reveal much? Lie or no lie, it's a reason that was given.
We were also given a reason why TM and BM left. We were told they were trying to move the car so this road rager wouldn't find their house. We were told that TM was trying to take the danger away from the house. Another lie.
 
  • #494
As a mom with a daughter, if some unknown person threatened me and my daughter after a road rage incident, I would drive straight home, lock my doors, and call 911. The whole story we've been told of TM being threatened by someone, going home to get her son and his gun, and then driving around looking for that person has the ring of someone looking to "settle a score", not a mother who was trying to protect her daughter.

EN shot a woman who died, and he should serve time for that crime. I'm not excusing his actions. But everything that happened that night sounds like the actions of angry young men instead of a protective middle-aged mom.
JMO

That's the problem though. No individuals think like clones of one another. If they always make great decisions then we wouldn't have much to discuss on message boards whether it applies to the defendant or the victims. Like the DA says at the time these people don't have 20/20 hindsight to rely on. They are upset and caught up in the moment.

I don't think Tammy asked her son to bring the gun. I am sure he brought it on his own for protection since they were going out rather late when it was dark. If he was angry and really wanting to harm anyone ............he would have. I don't see him angry whatsoever. I think he was not only in shock how violent the one in the other car was but he was scared to death they were going to kill them both.

I think he was caught up in a traumatic event with his mom giving him an ultimatum that if he didn't go with her she would go alone. I can see any son never wanting their mother to go out alone.

I have read of cases where parents did pursue a bully they thought had bullied one of their children. Some have even found them and beat the stew out of them and were arrested for assaulting the bully.

I do agree that they should have called 911 but also think that 100% applies to EN as well. Nothing was stopping him from calling either.

IMO
 
  • #495
Well weren't we told why? Didn't RM say "they" knew where he lived so he didn't want to reveal much? Lie or no lie, it's a reason that was given.

Well, yeah, it's a reason that was given for not revealing that they knew EN was the shooter. It's also a reason that makes no sense whatsoever. If you know who the shooter is, you tell the police so they can arrest him. You don't keep it a secret.

But why did they originally claim the road rager followed TM & KM home and shot them? Why didn't they tell the truth about that?

And now we know the alleged road rager wasn't EN and wasn't DA. So how did they know the shooter was EN?

Who was the person in the police sketch? Why aren't the police looking for him?

Why didn't they call 911 during or after the road rage?

If there were driving lessons and road rage, these questions require answers.
 
  • #496
I agree with you they should have called 911 instead of going out looking. But why making up all this other crazy stuff? The Meyers, IMO, don't have much to hide during all this, they didn't shoot or kill anyone, there is no law saying you can't follow a vehicle or go into a school parking lot. If they really were out looking for EN, why not admit that in the first place? Is there a law against that as well? There were other stories they could have come up with and maybe keep out details that might really get them in trouble.

You are partially correct. Nevada law specifically says you can't act in a way that a reasonable person would feel fearful of:
A person who, without lawful authority, willfully or maliciously engages in a course of conduct that would cause a reasonable person to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, harassed or fearful for the immediate safety of a family or household member, and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, harassed or fearful for the immediate safety of a family or household member, commits the crime of stalking. (NRS 200.575)
If for instance someone sees you in the grocery store and they follow around the store, then they follow you and get in their car to follow you on the road and then they start to follow you home you'd probably be getting more and more terrified...and this would especially the case if someone you thought had a gun was follow you as it would be more and more terrifying even though that person has a legal right to have a gun and has a legal right to be where they are, their 'course of conduct' can be both illegal and terrifying to a 'reasonable person.' I think this is in part why they at first didn't admit they went out looking for someone and following them when they were armed and instead only said they alone had been followed by someone to their home as they could have been afraid if they said that LE would take it that they admitted to one or more crimes.
 
  • #497
I agree with you they should have called 911 instead of going out looking. But why making up all this other crazy stuff? The Meyers, IMO, don't have much to hide during all this, they didn't shoot or kill anyone, there is no law saying you can't follow a vehicle or go into a school parking lot. If they really were out looking for EN, why not admit that in the first place?

Well, exactly. Why didn't they admit that in the first place?

There were other stories they could have come up with and maybe keep out details that might really get them in trouble.

They tried to come up with a story that would keep out details that might get them in trouble. They told a story of driving lessons and road rage, in which the road rager followed TM & KM home and shot TM. Their story had BM sleeping at home and coming out of the house with his gun to return fire at the road rager's car.

They told that as the whole story. They thought that would be the end of it.
 
  • #498
Let's assume for the sake of argument that there actually were driving lessons and road rage.

We know that EN was not the road rager. And we know that DA was not the road rager. According to KM's GJ testimony, the road rager was a stranger.

So, okay, TM & KM escape from the road rager and go home. TM drops off KM and tells an armed BM to go with her.

Why? These are the stories that have been floated by the Meyerses:

1. TM just wanted to find and follow the road rager and then go home.

2. TM knew the road rager was EN and she wanted to lure him away from the house.

3. TM knew the road rager was EN and she wanted to move the car so he couldn't find them.

4. TM wanted BM to go with her to return to the Sean of the minor accident. (Never mind that there was no accident.)

5. There might be more explanations; there have been so many that I've lost track.

Someone who believes in the road rage story please tell me which explanation is the "true" one. And why. Bonus points if there's any supporting evidence or if the explanation actually makes sense.

Double bonus points if anyone can explain why TM thought she could go back out onto the streets of Vegas and find a 4-door silver sedan that she escaped from over on Cimarron.
 
  • #499
Imo, if the jury follows the letter of the law this will never be M2 and certainly not Manslaughter.
There are way too many premeditated acts done by the driver and the murderer.

1. Suspect opens fire at a first location. No one fired back per EN. The very first location shows he had an intent to harm even though he knew they were not returning fire.
2. Continued to pursue the vehicle even though it backed up turned around and tried to make it back to the safety of the victim's home.
3. DA and EN came right to the property and home of the victim.... opening fire for the second time killing Tammy Myers and had intentions of killing Brandon. The guy with the beard per EN.
4. EN admitted that he came there to kill. Even boasted that he had killed those kids.
Once the driver and EN continued to pursue the fleeing vehicle.... going to their property with the full intentions of murdering them it became as premeditated as it gets. EN became the hunter and the victim became his prey.

Let's take a step back as I think you're making certain assumptions without actually realizing that you're making those assumptions. This quote may also help you in that previously on here you've made the distinction between legal gun owners having a right to bear arms to protect themselves versus felons illegally carrying guns, which it turns out that EN - just like BM - is a legal registered gun owner who has a right to arm himself for protection:
Police said they are looking for at least one more suspect, but they believe Nowsch was the shooter. Homicide Capt. Chris Tomaino told reporters that he owned registered firearms but wouldn't say how many guns or what type of weapons they were.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/19/us/las-vegas-road-rage-killing/
Now with that out of the way...

#1 - As a gun owner you have a right to using your gun for self-defense, which self-defense doesn't only apply after you've been shot at and are lucky enough to have not been killed or incapacitated after the first round is fired at you. Also with self-defense it doesn't require actual danger, but the appearance of imminent danger "Actual danger is not necessary to justify a killing in self-defense. A person has a right to defend from apparent danger to the same extent as he would from actual danger." We know BM had a gun and was in a car that was pursuing EN and EN said he saw a gun flashed at him (which BM could have done without realizing it because he was afraid), EN had a legal right to use his gun in self-defense for the perceived threat of an armed car chasing after him after flashing a gun at him. Consider the scenario of the tables were turned - if BM/TM had just been parked by the school and EN/DA came up behind them and flashed a gun at TM/BM and then after that kept pursuing them in their armed car, would BM/TM have had a right to self-defense under the imminent threat of an armed car chasing them that had just flashed a gun at them?
#2 - This actually is an assumption made, but nowhere in the record is it stated that EN directed the car he was in to go there nor his purpose for going there while at the same time it has been stated by sources across the board that EN didn't know whose car the Buick was, so he wouldn't know that the owners of the Buick live on Mt Shasta. This is a very critical point because the extent of planning into going it depends where on the spectrum it falls. The closest area that EN is premeditated to wanting to go is telling Andrews that he wants to go home. For all we know he did exactly the same thing as TM did after the alleged fear of harm from the death threat where after going by home he then went to be sure that the threating car wasn't near his home, which I don't think you'd say TM for going to her home was in the process of attempting M1. Any number of times you'll hear about trials where someone gets acquitted of M1 where the jurors themselves will say they thought the suspect guilty but acquitted because the DA didn't provide enough evidence - the proof has to sustain that they actually did what they were accused of rather than a gut feeling suspicion to get an M1.
#3 - On this I agree in the sense that he was responding to bare fear rather than imminent fear, which does not justify what he did but instead would make it M2 or Manslaughter.
#4 - Actually he didn't. He said what he did once he saw them and his boast was actually admitting to what he did in response to bare fear and even if he did that doesn't necessarily make it M1. Reverse the situation and instead have it be where TM/BA found the alleged road rager who threatened the lives of the Meyers family and they followed this car home where they shot and killed that person on the bare fear that the road rager was in the process of getting guns to carry out his death threat on their family. Killing the road rager in his driveway wouldn't be justifiable homicide, but instead it would be M2 or Manslaughter as the Meyers would have over-reacted to provocation where they used lethal force in the presence of mere bare fear. In that situation TM just as well could have said "I got those road ragers, they were after me, but I got them," which such a statement wouldn't be admitting to M1.

EN had a legal right to call 911.
EN had a legal right to go home or to another home or even to the police station.
He did not have any legal right to pursue someone who was trying their best to get away from him. That is simply hunting someone down in order to kill them which is M1 and that is what he tried to do by his own admission and succeeded with TM.

Virtually everything you said is exactly the same position the Meyers were in, yet I do not see you supporting charges against them. It's not like someone who could be charged with attempted murder would lie to the police about what they were doing, so you cannot assume that just because the Meyers didn't confess that they weren't lying to the police. The Meyers had a legal right to call 911 and a legal right to stay home or even go to a police station and they pursued someone who tried to get away from them, which make their pursuit illegal and them hunting someone down. We just have to trust that someone who has done all those things you list wasn't attempting murder because they didn't confess to the police they were in an attempted murder plot. To be clear I'm not saying the Meyers were in an attempted murder plot, just using this as an example to show how similarly the two groups operated and where differences come is by assuming people who do all these things are being honest to the police.

The intent to kill in this case is glaringly obvious. That was his intent and he tried his best to carry it out.

Intending to kill is not the same thing as M1. Negligently killing someone by accident is Involuntary Manslaughter and no one is saying that this was accidental negligence. Intending to kill someone itself isn't a crime at as it depends on why and under what circumstances you were attempting to kill.

I suspect since Andrews wasn't the shooter his lawyer will try to do a plea deal in exchange for his testimony in court against EN.

It would not surprise me if Andrews turns states evidence or at least has been trying to reach an agreement on a deal.
 
  • #500
I think he was caught up in a traumatic event with his mom giving him an ultimatum that if he didn't go with her she would go alone. I can see any son never wanting their mother to go out alone.

I have read of cases where parents did pursue a bully they thought had bullied one of their children. Some have even found them and beat the stew out of them and were arrested for assaulting the bully.

I do agree that they should have called 911 but also think that 100% applies to EN as well. Nothing was stopping him from calling either.

I agree and with what you describe this is how I see everyone acting. BM was not the only with a family he was concerned about as EN had a family as well that he was concerned about. Just like BM he was caught up in a situation not of his own making that he didn't really want to be in and was the registered gun owning passenger in a vehicle, just EN responded excessively.
 
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