GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #6

[PaperDoll]

EN didn't want the person he was shooting at to get even more guns to come after him with:
KK

Mogg

It's not to say what EN did was right or that EN was right in his perceptions, but he didn't think they were trying to end it. He was shooting with the intent of preventing them from getting even more guns than they already had. He did not think they were retreating, but rather he thought they were trying to escalate it.

EN ASSUMED they were getting more weapons. EN was wrong on his assumption and someone was killed in the process. BM could have shot at them during the 1st shooting session but he didn't so what makes EN think they went home to get more weapons? Did EN go directly home after the 2nd shooting? I don't think he did, in fact he went to a friends house and switched cars. If he was so concerned about protecting his mom, baby sister and cat, why didn't he just go home after the 2nd shooting? After all that would have been a good time for the Meyers to retaliate since EN shot and killed their mom

 

[PaperDoll]

Since the Meyerses won't tell the truth about that night, we can only guess at what their actual intentions were. We know they took a gun and went hunting for EN. We know they chased him. Those are facts not in question; the only question is "why" — and that we don't know. I'm sure they didn't just want to talk to him — they would have had no reason to take BM's gun if all they wanted to do was talk.

Some prior conflict is all I can think. "Prior" could mean earlier that day, earlier that month, or earlier that year. Drug deal gone bad? Maybe. There are plenty of rumors to that effect. Maybe TM thought EN had been bullying KM; we know that she liked to stalk and chase anyone she perceived as a bully. I don't know. I'm not a hothead and I don't live a hothead life, so I really can't imagine what was going on with them that they decided to arm up and go stalk EN at the park.

They went hunting for the road rager guy, not EN.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

The reason that KM may not have realized that that was EN in the park because it was dark out and depending on where EN was located, I think it would be hard to identify who it was. I don't understand why the Meyers would be "stalking" EN and why they would go to the school parking lot to do so. Seems like if they wanted to talk to him they would go directly to his house, or get out of the car once they saw him in the park and confront him right then and there. Why play the "chasing" game?

KK's own testimony was that whatever someone was doing in the park (that matched the details of what EN was doing) was the proximate cause of ending the driving lessons and going away. I can think of any number of situations you wouldn't want your unarmed 15 year old daughter to be around where you'd either want to address this alone with them back home or better yet address it with you armed 22 year old son instead. Not knowing who it was would be why you wouldn't go to their house as you wouldn't know where it is unless of course you followed the car to see where they lived. BM already explained why in his interview where TM had done that just recently before in order to go to a gang member road ragers house and talk to them about what they did on the road, so yeah, it's not something most people would do but it's something TM specifically would do.

 

[BellaVita]

And? BM said he didn't fire the gun at the first scene, and that certainly looks to be true (whatever the reason). In fact BM's story aligns closely with EN's. EN didn't think anyone was firing at him. EN admits he fired his weapon at both scenes.

All true so far.

He could have been used self-defense during the car chase part

Most definitely.

but not after going to BM and TM's cul-de-sac and shooting TM.

Maybe, maybe not.

BM was trying to run away (both from what BM said to police and from what EN said to police).

BM was running. He was running for cover in order to fire his gun. EN thought BM was a threat and was going to get reinforcements.

EN didn't want him to get away, by his own admission.

True. EN felt that BM was a danger as stated above.

That's not self-defense, if you are shooting at someone who is running away because you don't want them to get away.

There is more to it than that. What you will see in court will likely be hours of testimony. Not just a simplistic, one-line retort.

 

[BellaVita]

They went hunting for the road rager guy, not EN.

How do you know?

 

[SpanishInquisition]

EN ASSUMED they were getting more weapons. EN was wrong on his assumption and someone was killed in the process.

We are talking about intent if you follow the thread on what I was responding to where they saying in EN's confession that he says he was intentionally shooting at someone who was trying to get away and you'll also see I said it didn't mean that he perceived things right nor that what he did was OK.

 

[BellaVita]

EN ASSUMED they were getting more weapons. EN was wrong on his assumption and someone was killed in the process.

How do you know?

BM could have shot at them during the 1st shooting session but he didn't so what makes EN think they went home to get more weapons?

This has been covered. He wanted to shoot but was panicked and couldn't figure out how to utilize his gun in an effective manner. BM's own testimony.

Did EN go directly home after the 2nd shooting? I don't think he did, in fact he went to a friends house and switched cars. If he was so concerned about protecting his mom, baby sister and cat, why didn't he just go home after the 2nd shooting? After all that would have been a good time for the Meyers to retaliate since EN shot and killed their mom.

I think at that point, he'd concluded the police were definitely coming. I think EN concluded the threat was over at that point. I tend to agree.

 

[BellaVita]

I can understand being rattled when being shot at.

Before getting in that situation is the time to think about it. When you take your gun with you in an attempt to hunt for someone, you better be sure you are mentally and physically ready to handle what happens when you are the aggressor.

 

[LancelotLink]

If TM and KM went east on Ducharme after the "road rage" incident, they would end up at the same location where TM and BM found the silver car, only coming from a different direction. Might not explain the "came around behind them again" but it does make we wonder why TM and KM went back to the park as they were rushing home.

 

[PaperDoll]

How do you know?

How do you know they didn't? From what I'm reading in the GJ Transcripts it sounds like there was a driving lesson and once TM took over they went down some main roads where there was a confrontation with a vehicle and the driver of that vehicle wasn't EN per KM's testimony. So once KM and TM went home and BM is now in the picture, they went to look for the road rager because BM even said in his testimony that TM pointed to the place where this road rage guy threatened them. Again, if they were after EN because they had a beef to pick, why go to the school parking lot waiting for him. EN is known to hang out at the park, not the school. They also know where he lives so why not go there instead of driving in the school parking lot?

 

[jjenny]

EN didn't want the person he was shooting at to get even more guns to come after him with:
KK

Mogg

It's not to say what EN did was right or that EN was right in his perceptions, but he didn't think they were trying to end it. He was shooting with the intent of preventing them from getting even more guns than they already had. He did not think they were retreating, but rather he thought they were trying to escalate it.

That's not how self-defense is supposed to work. Using that logic, any murder can be justified, because "I just thought they were gonna get a gun so I had to kill them first." He shot at the guy running away. That is not self-defense.

 

[PaperDoll]

How do you know?



This has been covered. He wanted to shoot but was panicked and couldn't figure out how to utilize his gun in an effective manner. BM's own testimony.



I think at that point, he'd concluded the police were definitely coming. I think EN concluded the threat was over at that point. I tend to agree.

One your first response to my post: I don't know, no one knows but I'm going by my own feelings, just like a lot of us are doing here. I think after being shot at they were not going to go back out and try it again.

Did I miss something? Did BM say in his own testimony that he couldn't figure out how to utilize his gun? Was it at the 1st shootout or the 2nd?

 

[PaperDoll]

If TM and KM went east on Ducharme after the "road rage" incident, they would end up at the same location where TM and BM found the silver car, only coming from a different direction. Might not explain the "came around behind them again" but it does make we wonder why TM and KM went back to the park as they were rushing home.

I thought they took Cimarron to Cherry River home. If they took Cimarron to Ducharme that would be a longer way home. Cimarron to Cherry River would have been faster. JMO!

 

[BellaVita]

How do you know they didn't? From what I'm reading in the GJ Transcripts it sounds like there was a driving lesson and once TM took over they went down some main roads where there was a confrontation with a vehicle and the driver of that vehicle wasn't EN per KM's testimony. So once KM and TM went home and BM is now in the picture, they went to look for the road rager because BM even said in his testimony that TM pointed to the place where this road rage guy threatened them.

You have to accept this testimony as gospel which is coming from the M's. How can anybody do that when there are so many incarnations of their stories? A jury will be instructed, more than likely, that if you find part of a person's testimony to be untruthful, you may consider all of it untruthful. I'm not saying that every single thing EN says is the gospel, but there has been far less deviation and a lot more consistencies than not. The same cannot be said of the M's.

Again, if they were after EN because they had a beef to pick, why go to the school parking lot waiting for him. EN is known to hang out at the park, not the school. They also know where he lives so why not go there instead of driving in the school parking lot?

The park and school are adjacent to each other. Both parties were able to see the other. If there was a beef, I can easily see the M's going to the parking lot, circling, mirroring EN's moves. It is part of intimidation. Just because they know where he lives does not mean they would want to confront him there. He is more vulnerable in the park. I am not 100% about whether they knew it was him, but I AM 100% that this is a plausible scenario.

 

[LancelotLink]

I thought they took Cimarron to Cherry River home. If they took Cimarron to Ducharme that would be a longer way home. Cimarron to Cherry River would have been faster. JMO!

ITA. Would have been how I would go, too. However, according to the arrest warrant, KM said they went South on Cimarron and East on Ducharme. Strange, huh? They were across the street from the park, left, went around a big block and came back to the park. Then go and get BM and guess where they wind up? The park.

 

[BellaVita]

Did I miss something? Did BM say in his own testimony that he couldn't figure out how to utilize his gun? Was it at the 1st shootout or the 2nd?

From Det. Mogg:
he at that point attempted
to load his firearm by racking the slide and he said
that he was ducking down, he was very scared, and he may
have racked it more than once which would mean a live
cartridge would be ejected from the gun.

He wasn't able to utilize the gun the way he wanted. It was at the first scene. I encourage everyone to read the GJ transcript in full. It takes more than one read to fully appreciate all being said. IMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Before getting in that situation is the time to think about it. When you take your gun with you in an attempt to hunt for someone, you better be sure you are mentally and physically ready to handle what happens when you are the aggressor.

Maybe he did think about it beforehand but the reality of having someone try and kill him made him nervous. JMO.

 

[BellaVita]

That's not how self-defense is supposed to work. Using that logic, any murder can be justified, because "I just thought they were gonna get a gun so I had to kill them first." He shot at the guy running away. That is not self-defense.

That is a very simplistic view. And no, not every murder can be justified that way. The totality of circumstances has to be taken into account.

 

[BellaVita]

Maybe he did think about it beforehand but the reality of having someone try and kill him made him nervous. JMO.

I agree. It'd make me nervous too.

 

[LancelotLink]

snipped for focus:





Now see, here we have yet more changes in KM's story. Her GJ testimony is the very first that we've heard anything from her about the walking-back-and-forth dude.

Previously, it was just driving lessons, then they left to go home and then there was road rage. No walking-back-and-forth dude, no cutting the lesson short because TM was freaked out over someone at the park .... nada.

In the arrest affidavit, there was no mention of walking-back-and-forth dude either; KM's story then was that they drove around the parking lot for a while, then left the school to drive around up in the residential area north of the school, then came back to the west side of the school and "did a couple more loops," then TM took over and they went home. They weren't sitting there parked; they weren't watching some creepy dude walking back and forth; TM didn't freak out and decide to cut the lesson short.

The walking-back-and-forth dude had to be EN; he described that scene so similarly to KM's description that I have to believe it happened and that it was him they saw. Interesting that KM says she knows EN and identified his photograph, but specifically said that she did not see EN at the park. So I guess we're supposed to believe that they saw the walking dude but that he wasn't EN, or that KM didn't recognize him as EN.

However, I don't believe it happened during any driving lesson. IMO, they (the Meyerses) went to the school and sat there and watched EN in the park, mirroring his movements whenever he tried to exit the park. This was shortly followed by the gun-waving, the chase and the shootouts.

For her GJ testimony, KM knew that with EN arrested and the Audi driver being sought, it was going to become public knowledge that the green car sat there at the school and watched EN in the park. So she 'fessed up to it but made it part of the non-existent driving lesson in an attempt to make it seem innocent. She doesn't want us to know that the Meyerses were stalking EN at the park prior to the chase; no, she wants us to believe that EN was being creepy at the park and freaking them out.

Yes. This. She said they were just parked. "We were parked and we didn't move." And she certainly seemed to be paying more attention to EN than any driving lessons, IMO.