GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #6

[Deleted member 39678]

The defendants' actions absolutely do not prove premeditation. The best evidence available to us is that EN was panicked and fearful; that's incompatible with coolness and reflection. Once the Meyerses pointed their gun at EN and started chasing him, there was no coolness and reflection.

Looks like we will have to agree to disagree on premeditaion.

 

[BellaVita]

And didn't the Myers live on a cul-de-sac? Why would he go into a cul-de-sac where he has to circle back around to get out?

Imo, he was at the cul-de-sac to do just what he said .......kill.

What is so hard about reading the GJ documents? Sorry, I have cut and pasted so many times. The explanation is right there. It is up to the reader to decide what they think but the reason is stated in black and white.

 

[PaperDoll]

We don't know what he knew. For all we know he was doing the exact same thing as TM was said to be doing in being armed driving around the various streets out of fear of a threat to one's family. TM knows she doesn't live on Ducharme and BM says she was there actively looking for a car that she viewed as a threat, so did TM have no business being on Ducharme since she didn't live there, wasn't driving home and was looking for a threatening car?

All the streets mentioned are public streets; Ducharme is a long street with Cimarron on one end and Buffalo on the other. The park is also on Ducharme and Cherry River. Ducharme has a exit to major streets, Mt. Shasta is a small cul-de-sac which leads nowhere except people's homes. IIRC BM took Buffalo at one point and made a right on Ducharme and found the Audi sitting on that street right near San Jonas. He took Ducharme because that street will also take him home instead of going around the Alta. So IMO it makes sense for cars to use Ducharme as to an exit out of the housing track; Mt. Shasta is a really small cul-de-sac and if you start to enter it, you should see that there is no exit except the way you came.

 

[sonjay]

However, even with all that being true I don't think self-defense would apply given how that he went to that location (unless it was somehow accidental that he arrived there). Such a scenario greatly mitigates to what degree his guilt is, but I do not believe it removes it entirely. When the Buick wasn't at his house, it turned the threat from an immediate threat to a bare threat and if he encounter something along the way, that was of his own making as whatever imminent threat they were is because he went there. This is why I put the odds of either M1 or outright acquittal low as everything described shows impulsiveness and provocation, but provocation does not entitle him to go out searching for a bare threat.

The more I read the GJ transcripts, and ponder EN's account of what he was thinking and feeling, and what he said to DA, the more I think he just wanted to get home safely. I think they did end up in the cul de sac by accident — although I'm open to changing my mind if more evidence arises that says otherwise. I don't see anything that proves that they went into the cul de sac specifically because they saw the green car go in there and they wanted to kill the people in the green car.

If they ended up in the cul de sac by accident, then I also think it's entirely possible that EN saw the running person and thought he was going to get more guns. That's what he told Mogg, and that's what Mogg testified to.

Given that the green car had just come upon him at the park, pointed a gun at him, and chased him, and only broke off the chase after EN fired his own gun, I think EN had plenty of reason to think that he was still in danger from the Meyerses.

I'm very eager to see and hear all of the evidence. I hope DA talks. I want to know what really happened. I'm open to changing my mind if there's evidence to the contrary, but right now I'm leaning toward self-defense. EN was probably mistaken about BM going to the house to get more guns; but I think his fear of that was a reasonable fear. He also had no way of knowing if the heads in the green car had guns. For all he knew, if the Audi screeched out of the cul de sac as fast as it could without shooting, the green car would take up the pursuit again. Honestly, I don't find that fear to be unreasonable, based on what we know.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

How much time does "coolness and reflection" take? Perhaps only seconds. JMO.

So there was loads of time for coolness and reflection between BM getting his gun and the minutes that elapsed between then and finding the Audi. I don't think anyone premeditated, but if there was time for coolness and reflection it was with the Meyers who had spent minutes planning on going after a car and were in the process of executing whatever their armed plan was rather than something that happened as a spontaneous reaction to something that happened seconds prior.

 

[sonjay]

All the streets mentioned are public streets; Ducharme is a long street with Cimarron on one end and Buffalo on the other. The park is also on Ducharme and Cherry River. Ducharme has a exit to major streets, Mt. Shasta is a small cul-de-sac which leads nowhere except people's homes. IIRC BM took Buffalo at one point and made a right on Ducharme and found the Audi sitting on that street right near San Jonas. He took Ducharme because that street will also take him home instead of going around the Alta. So IMO it makes sense for cars to use Ducharme as to an exit out of the housing track; Mt. Shasta is a really small cul-de-sac and if you start to enter it, you should see that there is no exit except the way you came.

Yes, he did. Please explain why BM was on Buffalo and took a right on Ducharme. What was he doing out there? What was his intention? No one has yet explained what BM & TM intended when they set out with BM's gun that night to hunt for the silver car. Were they planning on bringing it tea and cookies?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

So there was loads of time for coolness and reflection between BM getting his gun and the minutes that elapsed between then and finding the Audi. I don't think anyone premeditated, but if there was time for coolness and reflection it was with the Meyers who had spent minutes planning on going after a car and were in the process of executing whatever their armed plan was rather than something that happened as a spontaneous reaction to something that happened seconds prior.

I don't believe that premeditation requires a great deal of time. JMO.

 

[sonjay]

All the streets mentioned are public streets; Ducharme is a long street with Cimarron on one end and Buffalo on the other. The park is also on Ducharme and Cherry River. Ducharme has a exit to major streets, Mt. Shasta is a small cul-de-sac which leads nowhere except people's homes. IIRC BM took Buffalo at one point and made a right on Ducharme and found the Audi sitting on that street right near San Jonas. He took Ducharme because that street will also take him home instead of going around the Alta. So IMO it makes sense for cars to use Ducharme as to an exit out of the housing track; Mt. Shasta is a really small cul-de-sac and if you start to enter it, you should see that there is no exit except the way you came.

Every time I've ever mistakenly entered a cul de sac that only had 4-5 houses before the open circle part at the end, I just drive on down to the end to turn around.

 

[BellaVita]

oceanblueeyes wrote:

I don't understand what you mean about EN was ready to flee? When did he flee from the Myers? How can he want to flee and come right to their home like a homing pigeon?

The only thing I read in the GJ about fleeing was he told his friend that if the police were on to him he was going to live out of state in Arizona.

You need to read more thoroughly.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Actually, yes, it does. I believe it was SpanishInquisition who posted the link to Byford previously:
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/nv-supreme-court/1474569.html

Deliberation remains a critical element of the mens rea necessary for first-degree murder, connoting a dispassionate weighing process and consideration of consequences before acting.  “In order to establish first-degree murder, the premeditated killing must also have been done deliberately, that is, with coolness and reflection.”
​

BBM. With coolness and reflection. This is not first-degree murder, no way no how. Saying it's so don't make it so.

LOL! Well saying it isn't first degree murder sure doesn't make it so either.

I do believe he and Andrews are both charged with first degree murder which is the appropriate charge imo.

I fully believe the DA can prove it IS M1.

 

[sonjay]

I don't believe that premeditation requires a great deal of time. JMO.

Deliberation is the process of determining upon a course of action to kill as a result of thought, including weighing the reasons for and against the action and considering the consequences of the action.

A deliberate determination may be arrived at in a short period of time.   But in all cases the determination must not be formed in passion, or if formed in passion, it must be carried out after there has been time for the passion to subside and deliberation to occur.   A mere unconsidered and rash impulse is not deliberate, even though it includes the intent to kill.
​

I can picture EN and DA turning into the cul de sac and seeing the Buick, and EN telling DA, "Let's just sit here for a few moments to let my passion to subside so I can think about whether I really want to kill those people. Let me think about the reasons for and against that action and consider the consequences of it. <thinking thinking thinking thinking>. Okay, I've thought about it and I really want to kill them. Now angle the car to the side so that I can shoot them." :thinking:

 

[PaperDoll]

I'm curious, was there a written police report that was taken the night/early morning of the shooting? I'm not talking about a police making statements to the press, I'm talking about a written one that is available for us to read. IIRC the last police report I read was taken on 2/19/15

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Nowsch lived in that neighborhood and had to know where they were heading. JMO.

Nowsch was not the driver and in fact Mogg specifically testified that EN was giving directions to EN's own home:

He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak. So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect. They come back
into the cul-de-sac on Mount Shasta where the victim was
shot.

My personal believe is that EN did go back to his home and checked from his car to be sure that no one was there posing an immediate threat to his family, then upon seeing no one was at his home he went out looking for the bare threat of the armed car much as how TM went home and then went out looking for the bare threat of the other car to be sure it wasn't in the neighborhood any longer and then when he saw the car he responded due to passion/recklessness.

 

[BellaVita]

I don't understand your post. If Nowsch and Andrews were trying to get away from the Buick how did they end up turning into the cul-de-sac where it was parked? Nowsch lived in that neighborhood and had to know where they were heading. JMO.

What is there to understand? If you read the GJ transcript, it is explained. I've copied and pasted many times. Do you read all the posts here or just some?Also, EN did not know it was the M's.

 

[BellaVita]

The premeditation became obvious when DA and EN hunted down the green car after it had fled. They weren't coming there to have tea and cookies with the Myers. All EN had to do is formulate the thought that he was planning on killing whomever was in the green car when he located them and that is exactly what he did and tried to murder BM too by his own admission. His admissions of he 'killed those kids' will be critical to this case. That shows that was his premeditated intentions all along.

AGAIN, they didn't hunt the green car after it fled. It would make more sense if you quoted documents directly to support your theory. And your characterization of the admission is again faulty. Please start quoting your sources. It will be more accurate. And an admission shows nothing of intent. It is an admission, nothing more.

And tragically the one he murdered in cold blood didn't even have a weapon and had no way to defend herself. And she nor Brandon was 'the kids' he thought had been after him which I find to be more paranoia than reality on his part. Even his friends said he was paranoid

Well, they WERE after him. Mistaken identity or not, they WERE after him. It is indeed the misfortune of the M's that they left the safety of their home to go hunting. All aggressive hotheads eventually meet their match.

 

[PaperDoll]

AGAIN, he didn't know to turn on Shasta to find the Buick. They went into the cul de sac looking to make a shortcut toward EN's house/getting out of Dodge, IYKWIM. The Audi was trying to turn around/get out of there. In the process of doing so, EN spotted the Buick, saw HEADS, in the plural, still inside the car and a guy with a beard running toward the house. It was purely coincidence/bad luck that the Audi just happened to pull onto Shasta and voila----there was the Buick.

Have you seen the cul-de-sac (Mt. Shasta)? EN SHOULD know that Mt. Shasta has no exit except from where they came in. EN knows there is no short cut to take on Mt. Shasta it's a dead end street. EN knows he lives one street over and all he had to do to get home from Carmel Peak was make a left on Cherry River not on Mt. Shasta.

 

[PaperDoll]

Well, that's what KM says, if you believe it. Here is a statement by KM in the arrest complaint:

View attachment 71560

She says this happened with the alleged road rager but it almost exactly mirrors what BM says happened with the encounter with EN. That's why a lot of people think she may have been in the car for the whole thing.

Here is how I'm taking that statement: KM saw the road rager guy during their driving lesson, TM dropped her off at home, BM gets in the car and searches for the road rager. KM is still at home waiting for mom and brother to return, maybe at that time she was looking out a window??? Maybe when mom and BM pulled into the driveway she ran outside and that was when she spotted the Audi? IMO there isn't much difference between the 2 cars that were are in question (not the Buick we all know that car) but the silver car. Now the tinted window ordeal doesn't mean neither of the cars had tinted windows even though KM said the road rage car didn't have them tinted. IMO, you can have dark tinted windows or light tinted windows, this I know because my husbands car has darker tint than mine. But the car colors are basically the same as well as the description... MOO!

 

[PaperDoll]

AGAIN, it is all in the GJ documents!

It's all in the perception on that GJ Statement. I see it one way while others see it happened another.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Sorry no links. I'm just basing my opinion on common sense. If Andrews didn't know which way to go Nowsch was there to help out.

I'm not convicting anyone of anything, I'm stating my opinion.

Yes and I agree with you that I think they intended to go down Mt Shasta and I can even agree that's it's possible that EN was in truth committing M1 when he decided to fire multiple rounds and I think it's good that people discuss different opinions as it is best for all involved rather than just sitting around having a mutual admiration society. I mostly dispute legal expectations of the case, legal meanings of statements, etc rather than someone's personal opinion. One area where I do take a broader objection outside of just this case is when there's any condoning of what the Meyers did in returning home, getting armed, voluntarily hunting for a car while armed and then chasing a car as their actions theoretically could have been Attempted Murder/Murder Conspiracy and from lessening degrees of being theoretical: Assault with a Deadly Weapon, Drawing A Deadly Weapon In A Threatening Manner and Stalking. I do not think it would be good public policy to encourage others to do what the Meyers did and I believe at a minimum the Meyers committed the crime of Stalking based on BM's own testimony even if there is no prosecution of it. People in cars chasing each other with guns is a great way to get lots of dead people, so that I can't condone outside the specific legal aspects of this case.

 

[sonjay]

Have you seen the cul-de-sac (Mt. Shasta)? EN SHOULD know that Mt. Shasta has no exit except from where they came in. EN knows there is no short cut to take on Mt. Shasta it's a dead end street. EN knows he lives one street over and all he had to do to get home from Carmel Peak was make a left on Cherry River not on Mt. Shasta.

EN wasn't driving.

Can you explain why BM was on Buffalo and took a right on Ducharme? What was he doing out there? He knows that he lives on Mt. Shasta.

And, why did he take his gun?

And, what were he and TM planning to do when they found the silver car?

And, why did they chase a silver car that had nothing to do with the earlier alleged road rage?

When the green car was pursuing the silver car south on Villa Monterey, just before the first shooting scene, WHY did BM go past Cherry River when he was pursuing the silver car? He knew that he lives over on Mt. Shasta and that the way to get there is by turning west on Cherry River. He knew that all he had to do to get home from Villa Monterey was to make a right on Cherry River.