GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #6

[SpanishInquisition]

The only way EN could have seen the Buick driving was if he looked, still going Westbound towards Cimarron, up Carmel Peak because Mt. Shasta is off Carmel Peak, that is the only way into Mt. Shasta. So EN turns around (the short cut) and heads back to Carmel Peak, then makes a left on Mt. Shasta. The very last part I bolded, IMO, was Mogg still describing how EN saw the Buick turning onto Mt. Shasta and said to the driver to turn around I know a short cut because they were still heading Westbound on Alta towards Cimarron. The short cut is, again, not taking Cimarron but taking Alta/Carmel Peak/Mt. Shasta, OR, to Cherry River. Had they taken Cimarron it would have been a longer drive, not by much but though but still longer.

So you think the driver misunderstood where EN wanted to go by turning onto Mt Shasta instead of taking the next left to EN's home where EN was trying to give directions to.

 

[SeeAlice]

<snipped picture for space>
BBM;

I am totally baffled here. I have not seen any reports that state TM ever had a gun or fired any rounds. I knew she was driving but didn't know she got out the driver's side and shot toward the silver car. In fact last I remember there was no definitive answer as to whether she was inside or outside the car.

What did I miss?

:cow:

This may seem to have come completely out of left field, but it really isn't.

In one of their first motions after Nowsch was jailed, his defense attorneys requested gun shot residue (GSR) testing be done on TM's body before it was released to the family for disposal. (Or access to any GSR tests conducted by LVMPD.)

We have frequently discussed the possibility that TM also had a weapon and may have fired some or all of the bullets at the silver car. Also, it was noted that GSR could indicate were TM was in relation to BrM as he fired his weapon, if he indeed did. Unfortunately these discussions are scattered throughout the six current threads.

I previously asked if LE would have needed a search warrant to do GSR tests of the children's hands the night of the shooting if they refused to give consent.

I also asked if GSR tests are routinely done on every patient brought into an ER with a GSW. (Seems like a good policy to me since most GSW cases are going to be investigated by LE anyway.

No answer to either of those questions to date, as far as I'm aware.


JMO

 

[Deleted member 39678]

My apologies for any confusion caused by me adding a link after you read my post.

It appears Sonjay's personal experience using firearms was right on the mark. (Pardon the pun.) I would have said the same thing based on common sense regarding basic knowledge of firearms and, as the study's authors note, the oft-quoted opinion that casings usually eject to the shooter's right side.

As it turns out, it is a guess, but not "just guessing." It is an educated guess based on empirical evidence and staristical probability. Oh, and on Sonjay's personal experience using firearms (which I'm willing to bet exceeds yours and mine.)

I haven't had a chance to read the links you and Sonjay provided. I will say that it still allows a 26.4% chance that the guns used didn't eject casings to the right. You guys are getting closer though.

I'm not going to get into a contest on who knows more about what. Lets not make things personal. Okay?

 

[SeeAlice]

I don't see how the mere act of loading the gun is premeditation in a legal sense. EN had already been followed, chased and, IMO and according to his statement, seen a gun flashed at him. He perceived a threat and wanted to be prepared. He didn't know if, where or when the Buick could possibly be lying in wait. I think it was smart to load the gun and I think BM would have been smart to load HIS gun before hunting down the ALLEGED road rager. He waited to load it until he was in dire straits. He was supposedly going to track down and confront a person who'd threatened violence toward TM and KM. Loading the gun BEFORE you are panicked and desperate is just prudent.

May we assume BrM loaded his 9mm Glock at some point?

EN's self-defense claim would be a slam dunk if loading ammunition in your personal firearm is considered proof or an indication of premeditation to murder someone, correct?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

May we assume BrM loaded his 9mm Glock at some point?

EN's self-defense claim would be a slam dunk if loading ammunition in your personal firearm is considered proof or an indication of premeditation to murder someone, correct?

9mm Glock? I thought he used a Beretta. Off to work. I'll check back later.

 

[BellaVita]

May we assume BrM loaded his 9mm Glock at some point?

EN's self-defense claim would be a slam dunk if loading ammunition in your personal firearm is considered proof or an indication of premeditation to murder someone, correct?

Exactly.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I will say that it still allows a 26.4% chance that the guns used didn't eject casings to the right.

Actually that's not quite correct. We don't know where all the rounds landed, but for something to happen all three times in with a non-right ejection the odds of that repeated independent event would be .264*.264*.264 or about 2% probability (while conversely the probability of all three rounds being ejected to the right consecutively is about 40% using .736*.736*.736). When there's a wide difference (which I'd call 75/25 itself a wide difference in probabilities) that would go towards reasonable doubt and undermining witness credibility (whether there's a 25% chance the physical evidence confirms their statements or a 2% chance). My personal belief is that as far as where BM says was located is true and that there location of the rounds and where BM was isn't being verbally explained given how the GJ was looking at photos during this, but if this was the case where there's physical evidence demonstrating only a 2% (or 25%) likelihood that what BM is saying is true that would be pretty bad not only in trying to figure out what happened on Mt Shasta but anything that BM testified to would have its credibility questioned.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/data/probability-events-independent.html

 

[PaperDoll]

So you think the driver misunderstood where EN wanted to go by turning onto Mt Shasta instead of taking the next left to EN's home where EN was trying to give directions to.

I do not believe, again MOO, that the driver misunderstood EN. I believe, like Mogg also believes, that they saw the Buick turning onto Mt. Shasta and followed it in. EN knows the housing track and if they wanted to go home to EN's house, they would have continued towards Cimarron and Cherry Peak. It's not all that much further than the short cut, I'm guessing maybe 20 seconds to 30 seconds so why turn around in the middle of the street to take the short cut when they could have simply gone the longer way.

 

[SeeAlice]

I wonder if maybe TM had the gun at that point? She got out of the car to shoot at the silver car. BM was over in the driveway hiding behind the truck. TM got shot; she couldn't fire back. BM had no gun. When the shooting ended, BM ran over to his mother, grabbed the gun, and shot at the silver car 3 times as it fled.

Or, alternatively, TM had the gun, got out of the car and started shooting at the silver car as it approached, which then returned fire. TM got off 3 shots before she was hit. BM was over behind the truck without a gun. When the shooting ended, he ran to his mom, but he never did shoot at the silver car, because he was focused on mom lying there near death.

Didn't we see a report somewhere at some point that TM told BM to run over and get behind the truck? BM's official story in the GJ transcript is that he was trying to get her out of the car; when the silver car car started approached, he pushed her back into the car and ran to the truck. But what if that report we saw was correct and she did tell him to run and go hide behind the truck? That would make sense if she was the one holding the gun at that time; she had this self-image of herself as mama bear protecting her cubs, so she stayed out there to shoot at the silver car while her cub runs and hides.

This is all speculation: JMO, IMO, MOO and all that jazz.

Yes. Bob did indeed tell a reporter that.

I believe TrackOne (or TrackHit, I apologize for always getting the name mixed up) was the first to point it out. We (or I) paid attention to it because at that time, we were unaware the family had more than one truck, and the single known truck was reportedly 400 miles away in California pulling Bob's carnival vendor trailer when the shooting occurred.

 

[SStarr33]

So you think the driver misunderstood where EN wanted to go by turning onto Mt Shasta instead of taking the next left to EN's home where EN was trying to give directions to.

We know there was no misunderstanding/wrong turn. EN told his friends he followed them onto Mt Shasta

 

[PaperDoll]

EN said "this can't be happening, this can't be happening" and he was describing seeing the Buick and that is when the turned around (short cut) and headed towards Mt. Shasta, NOT HOME, but Mt. Shasta. He saw the Buick turning on Mt. Shasta and we all know what happened next. I do not believe DA made a wrong turn on Mt. Shasta, I just don't.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I do not believe, again MOO, that the driver misunderstood EN. I believe, like Mogg also believes, that they saw the Buick turning onto Mt. Shasta and followed it in. EN knows the housing track and if they wanted to go home to EN's house, they would have continued towards Cimarron and Cherry Peak. It's not all that much further than the short cut, I'm guessing maybe 20 seconds to 30 seconds so why turn around in the middle of the street to take the short cut when they could have simply gone the longer way.

I'm going off of what you put in bold with the detective himself making is it clear that EN was talking about going to his house by saying that EN lived on Cherry River and quoting EN on directions given to his house, which this was bolded by you and I'm adding the underlines:
He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak.

So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect.
http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf
That's the detective saying EN was concerned about driving past his home, the detective then saying where his home is and finally how EN was trying to give directions to Andrews on how to get to his own home.

 

[BellaVita]

We know there was no misunderstanding/wrong turn. EN told his friends he followed them onto Mt Shasta

I believe you're referring to KK statement in the arrest warrant. It's being paraphrased by the detective and very abbreviated in comparison to the GJ testimony.
http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf

Det. Mogg:
at approximately the time that the victim was
driving westbound on Cherry River, basically paralleling
him to try to get home, he would have seen that car
coming down from Cherry River onto Carmel Peak probably
prior to or just as it turned into the Mount Shasta
cul-de-sac. He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak. So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect.

I'm just not seeing Mogg implying anywhere that the Audi was actually chasing/following the Buick.

 

[SeeAlice]

9mm Glock? I thought he used a Beretta. Off to work. I'll check back later.

I think the Beretta was in a photo on his FB captioned "the new(est?) addition to the family" that he intended to buy a silencer for. I think the gun in his granny's drawers was a 9 mm Glock, but I am not 100% positive about that.

BrM's weapon was originally reported to be a shotgun.

It has indeed been a challenge trying to keep up with what the actual facts are regarding this case. Bob's ever-evolving stories, the arrest affidavit, the grand jury testimony, police statements, and media coverage don't necessarily share the same facts about the case.

JMO & my apologies if I was incorrect on the manufacturer. The research paper I posted earlier studied ejection locations of multiple brands of 9mm guns. (All were 9 mm, IIRC. LAPD donated the ammo for the study.)

 

[PaperDoll]

I'm going off of what you put in bold with the detective himself making is it clear that EN was talking about going to his house by saying that EN lived on Cherry River and quoting EN on directions given to his house, which this was bolded by you and I'm adding the underlines:
He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak.

So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect.
http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf
That's the detective saying EN was concerned about driving past his home, the detective then saying where his home is and finally how EN was trying to give directions to Andrews on how to get to his own home.

I'm sorry SI, that doesn't make sense to me. First off Mogg is telling the GJ where EN's house is located. He is trying to give the GJ a idea on where EN's house is and where Mt. Shasta is located, MOO. There is no shortcut to EN's house once he's on Cherry River because he lives on Cherry River. The short cut wouldn't make sense if he passed his house, he would have simply made a U-turn and went directly home but instead he took Carmel Peak and drove on Mt. Shasta, that isn't a short cut home to EN's house. I believe when EN said they pasted his house, I taking it that he thought the Buick passed his house. I could be wrong because it is confusing on what was said. The rest of Moggs statement makes sense to me.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

We know there was no misunderstanding/wrong turn. EN told his friends he followed them onto Mt Shasta

Actually we do not know what EN told his friends as it is their recollection to what he said and in the GJ testimony KK did not say EN said he was following them.

 

[SStarr33]

I believe you're referring to KK statement in the arrest warrant. It's being paraphrased by the detective and very abbreviated in comparison to the GJ testimony.
http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf

Det. Mogg:
at approximately the time that the victim was
driving westbound on Cherry River, basically paralleling
him to try to get home, he would have seen that car
coming down from Cherry River onto Carmel Peak probably
prior to or just as it turned into the Mount Shasta
cul-de-sac. He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak. So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect.

I'm just not seeing Mogg implying anywhere that the Audi was actually chasing/following the Buick.

In the GJ report, the DA goes through some of KKs recorded interview where they got the info from the warrant and refers to where she said followed him.

 

[BellaVita]

I'm sorry SI, that doesn't make sense to me. First off Mogg is telling the GJ where EN's house is located. He is trying to give the GJ a idea on where EN's house is and where Mt. Shasta is located, MOO. There is no shortcut to EN's house once he's on Cherry River because he lives on Cherry River. The short cut wouldn't make sense if he passed his house, he would have simply made a U-turn and went directly home but instead he took Carmel Peak and drove on Mt. Shasta, that isn't a short cut home to EN's house. I believe when EN said they pasted his house, I taking it that he thought the Buick passed his house. I could be wrong because it is confusing on what was said. The rest of Moggs statement makes sense to me.

http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf

EN statement:
At that point he said
the car that was following him had stopped and actually
backed up and he and the other male drove westbound on
Alta towards Cimarron.

The M's are on Cherry River. EN is on Alta. The cars are paralleling each other on two different streets.

 

[BellaVita]

In the GJ report, the DA goes through some of KKs recorded interview where they got the info from the warrant and refers to where she said followed him.

http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf

At that point he sees
a gun, pulls his gun out and fires. He didn't say how
many shots. And then the car, again I'm not sure who's
following who, but they came around a corner, ended up
in the cul-de-sac

This is specifically what KK said in the GJ. Not sure who's following who, no details about street names. I wouldn't really expect her to know all that. EN's statement to Mogg is much more detailed. BM's statement seems to basically corroborate that account.

 

[Miss Muffet]

My hiatus allowed me to reformulate my opinion on this case without all of the background noise. My conclusion is the same, EN acted in self defense, but I've gone a completely different direction on how I get there.

My thoughts, theory, speculation and just wild imagination follows (with links at the end of post):

I can't shake the revelations in the GJ testimony that EN called multiple friends and more than one friend showed up to pick him up. Add to that my my discovery that someone is standing in EN's driveway in the surveillance video, and it seems EN had a crew in the neighborhood that night.

I always believed there were two incidents (road rage and shooting) but with one car---that car stopped and threatened the M's on the way to picking up the M's. Now I do believe there were two cars, and both cars were friends of EN's. After all, EN tells LE himself that more than one friend showed up to pick him up. That's proof there was more than one car in the area IMO. Sure, the first friend could have left, but that's unlikely since there is someone standing in EN's driveway immediately prior to the second shooting.

This very well could explain why the M's stories don't make sense. (I'm ignoring the first story entirely because it's not part of the arrest warrant or the grand jury testimony.) From the M's perspective, there were to different unrelated incidents with two different vehicles.

I believe EN was paranoid as hell. I've been around a paranoid person. Everything in the grand jury testimony indicates extreme paranoia. Add drugs to his paranoia, and an innocent driving lesson could have caused him to freak out and call friends, BUT it's irrelevant to me if TM and KM were having driving lessons or if (modsnip) The determining factor to me is who brandished their gun first and had an offensive intent.

EN's intent was defensive. He called his friends to get him away. He waited until he felt it was safe to leave the park before getting into the second car. If he had a friend standing in front of his house, that also indicates he feared for his family. (The friend who stopped and threatened the M's isn't EN's responsibility. He wasn't there. That friend took it upon himself to be on the offensive.) EN tried to flee the buick at high speeds. He did everything he could to make the buick go away. That's why he brandished his gun out the window.

But TM went home to get BM and his gun over a verbal threat that most people would consider all talk and no action. BM subsequently sharing that TM has done this before, chasing a gang member home for his rudeness, indicates it's TM's personality to go after people she feels wronged her. I can't understand why some here don't realize that story doesn't help the M's. (modsnip) Add BM brandishing his gun first per the arrest warrant, and all of this points to offensive actions on the M's part.

Without calling anyone liars or creating a fantasy story based on nothing in the warrant or grand jury testimony, it's still understandable to me that EN acted in self defense. The M's terrible errors of judgment and offensive actions caused TM's death.

I refuse to focus my attention only to what happened on Mt. Shasta because the entire string of events prior to Mt. Shasta are all part of one event that formulated everyone's intents and actions.

I'll add links:

Nowsch Arrest Warrant: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/0...5F02612X-declaration-&-complaint_Redacted.pdf

Nowsch Grand Jury Transcript: http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf

TM previously followed gang member home because he was rude: http://www.reviewjournal.com/column...n-tammy-meyers-was-mom-people-would-want-have

Surveillance video and pictures. Magnified, I can see someone standing in EN's driveway: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rder-mother-just-teaching-daughter-drive.html