GUILTY NV - Tammy Meyers, 44, fatally shot at her Las Vegas home, 12 Feb 2015 - #7

[sonjay]

EN's confession rather than Mogg's interpretation of what EN meant makes sense. Mogg testified that EN gave directions for how to get home, but then Mogg just seems to ignore what EN allegedly said. If Andrews did a U-turn on Alta somewhere past Cimarron and then went north on Cimarron (that would be the left turn shortcut EN referred to) and then went eastbound Cherry River he'd drive by his house and that explains the spotlight search around his house that his primary concern was his home rather than going after the Buick. This also to me raises serious questions as to what the Meyers were doing as there's considerable time difference between the Meyers going straight home from Cherry River and the Audi doing a U-turn, going up Cimarron, turning right on Cherry River, turning right on Carmel Peak and then finally arriving on Mt Shasta. With 20 seconds they both should have been inside with the door locked and the cops on their way unless TM was actually doing what she did 10-20 minutes before in going home to arm up rather than retreat. I've timed myself with 20 seconds from a closed driver's door inside my garage and I literally ran out of space to run before the time ran out. I'd encourage people to test for themselves how much time they think the Meyers had and how much distance could be covered in that time.

I personally believe, and I'm sounding like a broken record here, the Audi made the U-turn on Alta, then went on Carmel Peak to Mt. Shasta. I believe they saw the Buick turning on Mt. Shasta and they went after it. When the Buick was being shot at at the 1st shooting, they backed up and headed home taking Cherry River to Carmel Peak then to Mt. Shasta, there wasn't much time, IMO, to get out of the car and head inside. I do not believe that the Meyers dilly dallied around after they were shot at, I believe they headed straight home and fast. I also believe the Audi drove fast as well. JMO! :loser:

Exactly. The Audi couldn't have gone past Carmel Peak, up Cimarron, right onto Cherry River, south onto Carmel Peak, and then to Mt. Shasta. There just plain wasn't time, given that the Audi pulled into the cul de sac before TM was even able to get out of the car. (At least, according to BM.)

IMO, that car in the video is not the Audi immediately prior to the cul de sac shooting. Or, if it was, then BM isn't telling us everything about what he and TM did when they arrived back in the cul de sac — because if the Audi was up on Cherry River traveling east at 11:22, TM & BM would have had plenty of time to get into the house before the Audi got into the cul de sac.

So what on earth is the deal with the car in the surveillance video?

 

[PaperDoll]

Exactly. The Audi couldn't have gone past Carmel Peak, up Cimarron, right onto Cherry River, south onto Carmel Peak, and then to Mt. Shasta. There just plain wasn't time, given that the Audi pulled into the cul de sac before TM was even able to get out of the car. (At least, according to BM.)

IMO, that car in the video is not the Audi immediately prior to the cul de sac shooting. Or, if it was, then BM isn't telling us everything about what he and TM did when they arrived back in the cul de sac — because if the Audi was up on Cherry River traveling east at 11:22, TM & BM would have had plenty of time to get into the house before the Audi got into the cul de sac.

So what on earth is the deal with the car in the surveillance video?

BBM: I don't know what the deal is with that car in the video, I'd really have to learn more about it Had the Audi taken the longer way even after seeing the Buick pull into Mt. Shasta, the Meyers would have had a little more time to get in the house, but not by much.

 

[SStarr33]

Someone close to me had a traumatic childhood, followed by combat duty in the war. He doesn't need to be locked up in the 'funny farm' but I can pretty much guarantee that if two people were hunting him down and chasing him around with a gun, things wouldn't end well. He does fine going about his daily business and even in stressful situations but being chased on the road with a gun would push him over the edge, as it may well do with people without a history of abuse and trauma.

If he did what these kids did, he needs to go to prison or the funny farm for the rest of his life.

 

[sonjay]

If he did what these kids did, he needs to go to prison or the funny farm for the rest of his life.

Thank you, this was immensely helpful to the discussion! :facepalm:

 

[BellaVita]

I personally believe, and I'm sounding like a broken record here, the Audi made the U-turn on Alta, then went on Carmel Peak to Mt. Shasta. I believe they saw the Buick turning on Mt. Shasta and they went after it. When the Buick was being shot at at the 1st shooting, they backed up and headed home taking Cherry River to Carmel Peak then to Mt. Shasta, there wasn't much time, IMO, to get out of the car and head inside. I do not believe that the Meyers dilly dallied around after they were shot at, I believe they headed straight home and fast. I also believe the Audi drove fast as well. JMO!

I think you are right as all 3 parties agree-Mogg, BM and EN-that the Audi was heading north on Carmel. In the arrest warrant, BM says he first saw the headlights on Carmel as he was trying to get TM out of the car.

http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf

Some of this is vague and contains a lot of Mogg putting his own interpretation on things:

At that point he said
the car that was following him had stopped and actually
backed up and he and the other male drove westbound on
Alta towards Cimarron. He said as he was driving
westbound with the other male, he says "No, this can't
be happening, this can't be happening." And he
describes how the car was coming, the green car the
victim was in, was coming down the street. And based on
my knowledge of the scene, the location of the victim's
residence, the location of his residence where he would
have been at approximately the time that the victim was
driving westbound on Cherry River, basically paralleling
him to try to get home, he would have seen that car
coming down from Cherry River onto Carmel Peak probably
prior to or just as it turned into the Mount Shasta
cul-de-sac.

BBM: EN never said he saw the Buick turning onto Carmel or Shasta. Maybe he did, maybe not. It is only Mogg's belief, not a fact.

He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak.

This part doesn't quite make sense. Did EN mean that he and DA had passed EN's house while on Alta and looking north to Cherry River or did EN mean that he couldn't believe the Buick was driving past his house or believed that the Buick was ABOUT to pass his house? Since EN's house is west of Carmel, it doesn't seem to make sense that the M's had passed EN's house if they went straight home from the first shooting scene. I feel it may be a matter of semantics and EN didn't necessarily mean the Buick DID drive past his house, only that he felt that was where the Buick was ultimately headed.

So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect. They come back
into the cul-de-sac on Mount Shasta where the victim was
shot.

They turned around, heading east on Alta, then made a left onto Carmel heading north. Then a left onto Shasta.

He says as they pull into the cul-de-sac, again
he's sitting in the passenger seat of the vehicle, their
vehicle kind of turns sideways is how he draws it, he
sees the victim's vehicle at the end of the cul-de-sacwith the driver door open and he sees someone running
whom he describes as a male with a beard from maybe the
passenger side of the car toward the house.

BBM: EN would had to have made the NEXT left onto Cherry River to get home. I believe that possibly the left onto Shasta was by mistake instead. Possibly the car was turned sideways in order to get out of the cul-de-sac, get back onto Carmel and go home. The way EN tells the story, they were in the process of turning around when the Buick was spotted. IMO.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Exactly. The Audi couldn't have gone past Carmel Peak, up Cimarron, right onto Cherry River, south onto Carmel Peak, and then to Mt. Shasta. There just plain wasn't time, given that the Audi pulled into the cul de sac before TM was even able to get out of the car. (At least, according to BM.)

IMO, that car in the video is not the Audi immediately prior to the cul de sac shooting. Or, if it was, then BM isn't telling us everything about what he and TM did when they arrived back in the cul de sac — because if the Audi was up on Cherry River traveling east at 11:22, TM & BM would have had plenty of time to get into the house before the Audi got into the cul de sac.

So what on earth is the deal with the car in the surveillance video?

I don't think we're getting the full story. If LE really screwed up and incorrectly identified someone who was hunting EN as EN himself that would really come back big time as Mogg testified he did was a computer records search to see if EN called 911 and painted EN as paranoid when there was video right there showing people hunting in his neighborhood while he was in the park. I wouldn't want to be Mogg explaining how they were wrong in their nationally (actually internationally as Daily Mail did some investigative research there) broadcast search with both the identity and timing of the vehicle telling the jury that what they told the world was completely wrong and that was neither the Buick nor the Audi that EN was in, but someone else shining a spotlight around EN's home, but EN really is paranoid despite this mystery vehicle that was checking out his neighborhood. On the other hand if that video shows the correct time, then it does not explain why the Meyers were taking their time if they really wanted to get inside as you don't need much time to scramble from inside a car to house as that's a matter of seconds. I do think there was more than 2 people in the car and that could explain the delay because otherwise with just a driver and a passenger, you can go really fast relative to the extremely small space they were in from the door.

 

[SeeAlice]

I'm gonna wait for the prosecution and defense to explain these locations and movements to the jury. Hopefully they'll make it Alice-level easy.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I think you are right as all 3 parties agree-Mogg, BM and EN-that the Audi was heading north on Carmel.

Mogg isn't an eyewitness, we haven't heard from EN which way we he says he was going on Carmel Peak and BM said "I saw headlights coming down Carmel Peak," not up.

This part doesn't quite make sense. Did EN mean that he and DA had passed EN's house while on Alta and looking north to Cherry River or did EN mean that he couldn't believe the Buick was driving past his house or believed that the Buick was ABOUT to pass his house? Since EN's house is west of Carmel, it doesn't seem to make sense that the M's had passed EN's house if they went straight home from the first shooting scene. I feel it may be a matter of semantics and EN didn't necessarily mean the Buick DID drive past his house, only that he felt that was where the Buick was ultimately headed.

I read it as the first sentence is what EN said and the second sentence is Mogg explaining what EN meant. Mogg is saying they were on Alta past EN's home when EN talked to Andrews about his concern for his home. I also think Mogg is speculating whether or not EN saw the Buick on Carmel Peak, which I think what EN was saying was he was concerned about the Buick being on Cherry River while he was on Alta driving away from his home.

EN would had to have made the NEXT left onto Cherry River to get home. I believe that possibly the left onto Shasta was by mistake instead. Possibly the car was turned sideways in order to get out of the cul-de-sac, get back onto Carmel and go home. The way EN tells the story, they were in the process of turning around when the Buick was spotted. IMO.

If CCTV footage is some other car from an hour earlier, then that puts into EN arriving on Mt Shasta by mistake with Andrews turning left too soon.

 

[BellaVita]

Mogg isn't an eyewitness, we haven't heard from EN which way we he says he was going on Carmel Peak and BM said "I saw headlights coming down Carmel Peak," not up.

Page 4 of arrest warrant says BM saw the car coming north on Carmel.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/0...5F02612X-declaration-&-complaint_Redacted.pdf

http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf

From GJ:

Q. Did you believe that the vehicle that you
saw coming down Carmel Peak was the same vehicle that
you had just seen fire shots out of it at you and your
mom?
A. Basically how Carmel Peak and Mount Shasta
is --
Q. Once again for the record I'm showing Grand
Jury Exhibit Number 9.
A. How this street is right here, they were
coming from this direction on the right hand side, they
were coming down, I saw headlights coming towards Mount
Shasta,

We can't tell how the map the LVDA is showing is orientated, however if it is like the map I'm looking at from google maps where N is at the top, E is to the right, etc., then when BM looked straight down toward Carmel from the end of the cul de sac, the Audi would have been coming from South of Shasta and heading North. IMO.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

From GJ:

Q. Did you believe that the vehicle that you
saw coming down Carmel Peak was the same vehicle that
you had just seen fire shots out of it at you and your
mom?
A. Basically how Carmel Peak and Mount Shasta
is --
Q. Once again for the record I'm showing Grand
Jury Exhibit Number 9.
A. How this street is right here, they were
coming from this direction on the right hand side, they
were coming down, I saw headlights coming towards Mount
Shasta,

We can't tell how the map the LVDA is showing is orientated, however if it is like the map I'm looking at from google maps where N is at the top, E is to the right, etc., then when BM looked straight down toward Carmel from the end of the cul de sac, the Audi would have been coming from South of Shasta and heading North. IMO.

BBM, In the GJ testimony BM says it at least twice that the headlights were coming down rather than up. The map would have had to have been flipped coming down to mean going up. This is his direct testimony rather than what was in the warrant was someone summarizing it, so they could have left off the word 'from,' but when we have his words directly in the GJ testimony it's only 'coming down.'

 

[BellaVita]

BBM, In the GJ testimony BM says it at least twice that the headlights were coming down rather than up. The map would have had to have been flipped coming down to mean going up. This is his direct testimony rather than what was in the warrant was someone summarizing it, so they could have left off the word 'from,' but when we have his words directly in the GJ testimony it's only 'coming down.'

I still think that "down" vs. "up" could be a matter of semantics. If I tell my husband I saw so and so coming down the street, that could mean from any direction. It just means that so and so was seen driving. I'm not specifying whether that person was traveling in a certain direction. For me, I don't put such a fine distinction on that. If I say someone is coming "down" the street, it could mean from the north or the south. But that is just me. In my mind, the scenario I am seeing is this: I believe that BM would have been looking straight up the cul de sac toward Carmel. Directly east. If he's looking directly east, then the car he saw would have been coming from the south on BM's right side. Also, though BM didn't specify north or south in the GJ, it was specified in the warrant. I give the warrant some more credibility in some ways because even though it was summarized by Mogg, it is also more specific in some ways. One thing that struck me about the GJ testimony is how vague BM is regarding street names. The arrest warrant is extremely specific-at least way more so than the GJ testimony. It struck me like thunder that in the GJ, BM could not remember the name of Ducharme street but in the warrant, it is mentioned repeatedly. I almost feel that forgetting the name of Ducharme in the GJ was deliberate. Almost to deflect away from the importance of what may have actually happened there. BM must have told Mogg the route he and TM took, yet in GJ he couldn't remember.

 

[BellaVita]

Just wanted to add that if there was security footage at the corner of Carmel and Cherry River, it would have captured the Buick on both alleged trips by them. Wonder what time the first pass through happened if the story is at all accurate?

 

[sonjay]

I still think that "down" vs. "up" could be a matter of semantics. If I tell my husband I saw so and so coming down the street, that could mean from any direction. It just means that so and so was seen driving. I'm not specifying whether that person was traveling in a certain direction. For me, I don't put such a fine distinction on that. If I say someone is coming "down" the street, it could mean from the north or the south. But that is just me. In my mind, the scenario I am seeing is this: I believe that BM would have been looking straight up the cul de sac toward Carmel. Directly east. If he's looking directly east, then the car he saw would have been coming from the south on BM's right side. Also, though BM didn't specify north or south in the GJ, it was specified in the warrant. I give the warrant some more credibility in some ways because even though it was summarized by Mogg, it is also more specific in some ways. One thing that struck me about the GJ testimony is how vague BM is regarding street names. The arrest warrant is extremely specific-at least way more so than the GJ testimony. It struck me like thunder that in the GJ, BM could not remember the name of Ducharme street but in the warrant, it is mentioned repeatedly. I almost feel that forgetting the name of Ducharme in the GJ was deliberate. Almost to deflect away from the importance of what may have actually happened there. BM must have told Mogg the route he and TM took, yet in GJ he couldn't remember.

I agree. BM seems to use "down" and "up" pretty interchangeably. There's one spot in the GJ testimony where he says, "So they're coming down towards, this is Villa Monterey right here, they're going up, this street right here, they went down that street."

 

[sonjay]

BBM: EN would had to have made the NEXT left onto Cherry River to get home. I believe that possibly the left onto Shasta was by mistake instead. Possibly the car was turned sideways in order to get out of the cul-de-sac, get back onto Carmel and go home. The way EN tells the story, they were in the process of turning around when the Buick was spotted. IMO.

<snipped for focus>

Mogg's testimony is so convoluted; I'd hope a seasoned homicide detective could testify more clearly than he did. But regardless of how difficult it is to tell what Mogg actually meant, he clearly indicates EN referencing a left turn to get to his house. With the Audi traveling east on Alta, there is no left turn to get to EN's house unless they make a U turn. They could have U-turned on Alta and headed back to Carmel Peak to turn left onto Carmel Peak, or they could have stayed on Alta until they were past Cimarron, then U-turned, then made a left onto Cimarron, then up to Cherry River, east on Cherry River to Carmel Peak, and south on Carmel Peak to Mt. Shasta.

However, if the Audi stayed on Alta until they passed Cimarron, then U-turned, then went north on Cimarron to Cherry River, the Meyerses would have had waaaaaaaay more than enough time to get home and get safely inside before the Audi got to the cul de sac. Did the Meyerses stay outside deliberately to wait for EN to get there?

 

[PaperDoll]

I think you are right as all 3 parties agree-Mogg, BM and EN-that the Audi was heading north on Carmel. In the arrest warrant, BM says he first saw the headlights on Carmel as he was trying to get TM out of the car.

http://www.mynews3.com/media/lib/166/1/8/3/183997e6-0122-44f7-99b5-c23203a0e717/030515Nowsch.pdf

Some of this is vague and contains a lot of Mogg putting his own interpretation on things:

At that point he said
the car that was following him had stopped and actually
backed up and he and the other male drove westbound on
Alta towards Cimarron. He said as he was driving
westbound with the other male, he says "No, this can't
be happening, this can't be happening." And he
describes how the car was coming, the green car the
victim was in, was coming down the street. And based on
my knowledge of the scene, the location of the victim's
residence, the location of his residence where he would
have been at approximately the time that the victim was
driving westbound on Cherry River, basically paralleling
him to try to get home, he would have seen that car
coming down from Cherry River onto Carmel Peak probably
prior to or just as it turned into the Mount Shasta
cul-de-sac.

BBM: EN never said he saw the Buick turning onto Carmel or Shasta. Maybe he did, maybe not. It is only Mogg's belief, not a fact.

He said they continued westbound and he
said that he couldn't believe they were driving past his
house. His house is further to the west on Cherry River
than Carmel Peak.

This part doesn't quite make sense. Did EN mean that he and DA had passed EN's house while on Alta and looking north to Cherry River or did EN mean that he couldn't believe the Buick was driving past his house or believed that the Buick was ABOUT to pass his house? Since EN's house is west of Carmel, it doesn't seem to make sense that the M's had passed EN's house if they went straight home from the first shooting scene. I feel it may be a matter of semantics and EN didn't necessarily mean the Buick DID drive past his house, only that he felt that was where the Buick was ultimately headed.

So they turned around and they came
back and he said "I know a left turn, a shortcut to get
to my house," something to that effect. They come back
into the cul-de-sac on Mount Shasta where the victim was
shot.

They turned around, heading east on Alta, then made a left onto Carmel heading north. Then a left onto Shasta.

He says as they pull into the cul-de-sac, again
he's sitting in the passenger seat of the vehicle, their
vehicle kind of turns sideways is how he draws it, he
sees the victim's vehicle at the end of the cul-de-sacwith the driver door open and he sees someone running
whom he describes as a male with a beard from maybe the
passenger side of the car toward the house.

BBM: EN would had to have made the NEXT left onto Cherry River to get home. I believe that possibly the left onto Shasta was by mistake instead. Possibly the car was turned sideways in order to get out of the cul-de-sac, get back onto Carmel and go home. The way EN tells the story, they were in the process of turning around when the Buick was spotted. IMO.

I understand that EN never said he saw the Buick but IMO it makes sense what Mogg said. I believe that from the 1st shooting to the 2nd, that it took 30 to 45 seconds, if that. I also don't believe the Audi took a wrong turn on Mt. Shasta, I believe EN knows his own neighborhood and I do not believe the Audi driver mistook Mt. Shasta for Cherry River. As far as driving past EN house, I'm not sure what he meant when he said that but I'm thinking he though the Buick passed his house. I do not believe the Audi was going to make a complete turn on Mt. Shasta, I believe they positioned the car so EN could shoot his weapon. Mt. Shasta is a very small cul-de-sac, when they spotted the Buick, they could have backed out quickly and took off but they didn't. Instead EN saw someone running from the car into the house and opened fire. He said he saw heads in the car and started shooting at them as well.

 

[BellaVita]

<snipped for focus>
However, if the Audi stayed on Alta until they passed Cimarron, then U-turned, then went north on Cimarron to Cherry River, the Meyerses would have had waaaaaaaay more than enough time to get home and get safely inside before the Audi got to the cul de sac. Did the Meyerses stay outside deliberately to wait for EN to get there?

And how crazy would that be after having been shot at already?????????

 

[PaperDoll]

<snipped for focus>

Mogg's testimony is so convoluted; I'd hope a seasoned homicide detective could testify more clearly than he did. But regardless of how difficult it is to tell what Mogg actually meant, he clearly indicates EN referencing a left turn to get to his house. With the Audi traveling east on Alta, there is no left turn to get to EN's house unless they make a U turn. They could have U-turned on Alta and headed back to Carmel Peak to turn left onto Carmel Peak, or they could have stayed on Alta until they were past Cimarron, then U-turned, then made a left onto Cimarron, then up to Cherry River, east on Cherry River to Carmel Peak, and south on Carmel Peak to Mt. Shasta.

However, if the Audi stayed on Alta until they passed Cimarron, then U-turned, then went north on Cimarron to Cherry River, the Meyerses would have had waaaaaaaay more than enough time to get home and get safely inside before the Audi got to the cul de sac. Did the Meyerses stay outside deliberately to wait for EN to get there?[/QUOTE]

I don't believe they waited, after all they were being shot at at the first shooting and I'm sure that must have taken them by surprise. If they wanted to get in a gun battle with the Audi, they would have followed it instead of heading home. JMO!

 

[Snoods]

I don't see how an insanity defense would work here for either of them or that it is even being attempted, but I just found it interesting that both their dads committed suicide when they were kids, like if that had anything to do with them being friends. We know he was at least called if not the actual driver, so that makes me wonder why. Andrews doesn't exactly scream out mob life or that he's even a poser gangster, so I'm curious as to why EN would contact him the first place and if having a similar childhood is why Andrews was on EN's short list.

Good point about the paternal suicide connection, perhaps they met in some kind of support group that they were both involved with?

 

[sonjay]

<snipped for focus>

Mogg's testimony is so convoluted; I'd hope a seasoned homicide detective could testify more clearly than he did. But regardless of how difficult it is to tell what Mogg actually meant, he clearly indicates EN referencing a left turn to get to his house. With the Audi traveling east on Alta, there is no left turn to get to EN's house unless they make a U turn. They could have U-turned on Alta and headed back to Carmel Peak to turn left onto Carmel Peak, or they could have stayed on Alta until they were past Cimarron, then U-turned, then made a left onto Cimarron, then up to Cherry River, east on Cherry River to Carmel Peak, and south on Carmel Peak to Mt. Shasta.

However, if the Audi stayed on Alta until they passed Cimarron, then U-turned, then went north on Cimarron to Cherry River, the Meyerses would have had waaaaaaaay more than enough time to get home and get safely inside before the Audi got to the cul de sac. Did the Meyerses stay outside deliberately to wait for EN to get there?

I don't believe they waited, after all they were being shot at at the first shooting and I'm sure that much have taken them by surprise. If they wanted to get in a gun battle with the Audi, they would have followed it instead of heading home. JMO!

Well, in fact, they did follow it initially, so i guess they did want to get into a gun battle with it.

If they didn't stay outside to wait for the Audi, then the Audi had to have gone north on Carmel Peak then left onto Mt. Shasta. Any route that has the Audi going north on Cimarron to Cherry River and then south on Carmel Peak would have given TM & BM time to get into the house.

Which brings us back to: What's the deal with the car on Cherry River? It couldn't have been the Audi EN was in.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Instead EN saw someone running from the car into the house and opened fire. He said he saw heads in the car and started shooting at them as well.

That would mean there was at least 3 people in the car, which the Meyers have never admitted to and would be a reason for them to get out of the car and into the house slower.