NY - Christian Nunez, 8 wks, suffocates in rat-infested Bronx apt, 29 Jan 2007

[JBean]

They were living in a place so bad she had to smother her baby in order to protect it from rats trying to eat her, but you somehow think they got a college fund started?

I sent my kids to college and I also had a terrible rat infestation problem. Once they get in, they are very very difficult to get rid of. the bigger the home the more places they can get in. I was catching them 5 and 6 at a time. It tooks us months and months to finally get rid of them.
I HATE RATS. But they are defintiely here where I live. My gf just had to move out of her gorgeous seaside condo because the rats were destroying it. Rats don't discriminate, they are equal opportunity pests and they will live anywhere, even in really nice homes. Doesn't make the owners bad parents.

 

[LionRun]

I sent my kids to college and I also had a terrible rat infestation problem. Once they get in, they are very very difficult to get rid of. the bigger the home the more places they can get in. I was catching them 5 and 6 at a time. It tooks us months and months to finally get rid of them.
I HATE RATS. But they are defintiely here where I live. My gf just had to move out of her gorgeous seaside condo because the rats were destroying it. Rats don't discriminate, they are equal opportunity pests and they will live anywhere, even in really nice homes. Doesn't make the owners bad parents.

This is true. Because we live in the middle of the woods surrounded by fields beyond that we have to watch out for rats regularly. One day when my daughter came into my room to talk, something caught our eye by the bedroom window. A HUGE Norwegian rat was just outside on my windowsill. I could have put a collar on it--that was one big a$$ rat.

While I agree that starting a family should be planned based on the parents' ability to be good, stable parents and to be financially capable of providing, it is not always concrete. There are people who start out on the wrong foot, then do all they can to be the best parent they can be. There are parents who had everything to give, yet lost much of it due to illness or some other unforeseen reason. They had their ducks in a row, but they lost their ducks, and their living circumstances have changed. There are parents with ample money who parent or should I say don't parent their children. Being financially stable is one important factor; but, there are others that are important.

For example, I have family in New Mexico. My aunt and uncle have always been poor. Yet, they decided to have three children. But, they were only poor financially. The richness they had in love, values, and guidance made up for any of their financial lacking. They are my cousins, and they are all older than 30 now. All three worked and took out loans for college. All three graduated and have fulfilling careers. All three are happily married with adorable children, who they are raising with love and values.

There are so many exceptions to what everyone is discussing that I wanted to put in my two cents for whatever it is worth. The mother who lost her child indirectly because of the rats may be a crack addict who will never be any good to anyone. She may also be a struggling single mother, working two jobs and going to college to make a better life for her child. She may have recently lost her husband to a tragic accident which is why she cannot yet afford to move out. Apartments in New York are very high priced. In 1984 my sister rented a fairly nice one bedroom in New York. It cost $1,500.00 per month then. I can only imagine what it would rent for now. The point is we just don't know anything about the mother, so how can we pass judgement on her?

Lion

 

[southcitymom]

Based on the very limited information concerning this mother and her situation, I'm a bit flummoxed as to how anyone could possibly question her choices.

Rats are equal opportunity pests - they live in hovels and they live in hi-rises.

When little is known, I am always inclined to give a person - especially, as in this instance, a person who must be suffering mightily - the benefit of the doubt. Such gentleness has been extended to me in my life, and I am deeply appreciative.

As regards the matter of choices and fate or karma or whatever you want to call it, I do agree that in many regards the life we find ourselves living is a result of the choices we have made and continue to make. However, I don't think karma can be roundly dismissed.

Sometimes tough stuff continues to pile up on people regardless of the good choices they make. Likewise, people who make rotten choices often benefit from blind luck and good fortune. Individual paths are always nuanced; things are rarely black and white.

 

[SieSie]

obviously if there was a bad rat problem, this woman should have found a way to get her & her child the hell out of there. but like i said in big cities, rats are very common. we don't know what this woman's story was or how hard she was trying to get out of this situation (if she was). obviously she was making an effort to protect her child. we have to remember that kids often get suffocated while sleeping with a parent, no matter what the scenario.. it can happen just as easily in an upper-class home without rats.

geez, if people who lived around around rats, roaches, vermin, or in less-than ideal circumstances.. never had kids, then that would probably be about 80% of humanity! however i DO understand that women should be responsible and not bring a kid into a bad situation, if they can avoid it... but again.. that means the overwhelming majority of humanity should not be breeding, since there are billions living in poverty, war zones, and in situations most americans would think are unsafe or unsanitary.
maybe only nice, comfortable, upper-class people with a university degree & 2 SUV's, living in the nice, sterile, safe, clean, culturally-devoid suburbs; both making at least $75K a year should be allowed to have children. and everyone else should be sterilized..............??

:clap: :clap:
Just here to add my support to Narla and reb and others who feel this way. No one is saying it's GOOD to have a baby and live in those conditions, but I can't imagine saying she shouldn't have had a child. She may have been the best mom in the world. Some posters are making it seem like this woman was a crack addicted prostitute or something who was purposely endangering her child, and that's not how I see it at all.

I think it's unfortunate that anyone has to live in less than perfect conditions, but who am I to judge what conditions are "perfect"? It's also not like she had these rats as pets and was happy to have them there - she (and others) made numerous complaints and the scumlord didn't do anything about it. I don't blame the woman - she was living the only way she could at that moment in her life. How do you know she wasn't working as hard as she could to better herself, hoping and praying that she could get a different apartment in a few months?

I, personally, just can't imagine being so judgmental of those who have it worse off than I do. I have compassion for her, and anyone else that lives in what we would consider "unliveable" conditions. May God bless her and her family.

ETA: I hadn't finished the thread before posting this, just wanted to add that I'm glad to see so many others also feel that it's inappropriate to assume this woman shouldn't have had kids based on the little information provided in the article.

 

[Peter Hamilton]

Actually, rats are not only in slums and high rises--They are also in mansions sometimes--Beverly Hills a few years ago had a huge rat problem--Many of those older mansions were infested--It was a big story then--not sure if the problem has been solved today or not--Have not heard o,f any rat problems here in Palm Beach, but I'm sure they are around in the poorer areas of the county

 

[SieSie]

Sorry to double-post, but I wanted to snip the following quotes from various posters, because it makes me feel good to know there are others out there like me, who don't judge someone based on such limited information and external "appearances". Bless you all... :blowkiss:

I sent my kids to college and I also had a terrible rat infestation problem.

Rats don't discriminate, they are equal opportunity pests and they will live anywhere, even in really nice homes. Doesn't make the owners bad parents.

...this mother had every right to bring this little life into the world. Just as you had choices when you had children. Sure, maybe her circumstances were not the best or even what you or I might consider "acceptable"... but that doesn;t mean that she didn't care for this baby, want the best for this baby, or do everything within her power to provide for that baby.

Accidents happen. And you know, in recent years I see more affluent families co-sleeping for whatever reasons than I do lower class families. And, for some pretty (IMO) stupid reasons. So, if one of them rolled over on his or her baby, would be fuss at them as much for just feel bad for them?
I say that in this situation we should look to comforting the mom and sending her our condolences rather than critizing her choice to have a child or her living conditions.

and i have met plenty of wealthy families who live in a 10,000 sq ft mansion with 2 porsches in the garage and full-time maids, housekeepers and nannies.. who should have been sterilized before they had a chance to procreate.

no rats or menial jobs... but still lousy, emotionally warped, neglectful parents.

There are parents with ample money who parent or should I say don't parent their children. Being financially stable is one important factor; but, there are others that are important.

There are so many exceptions to what everyone is discussing that I wanted to put in my two cents for whatever it is worth. The mother who lost her child indirectly because of the rats may be a crack addict who will never be any good to anyone. She may also be a struggling single mother, working two jobs and going to college to make a better life for her child. She may have recently lost her husband to a tragic accident which is why she cannot yet afford to move out.

The point is we just don't know anything about the mother, so how can we pass judgement on her?

When little is known, I am always inclined to give a person - especially, as in this instance, a person who must be suffering mightily - the benefit of the doubt.

 

[LionRun]

Good morning SieSie, and thank you.


Lion

 

[MissieMt]

Grocery clerks = menial jobs

In California they top out at around $20.00 an hour..I don't call that menial..but maybe that is just CA.. I was a janitor for years at a university and made decent $$$ in Ohio.. So I guess what is concidered menial to some isnt menial to others.

Just for the record- I wasn't the one who said grocery clerk = menial job. Other posters were going on and on about how working at walmart or a fast food joint was SO menial. I LOVE cashiering, and fortunately for us my husbands' job provides well enough to let me have my goofy little job. We definately don't make $20 an hour here, but it's fun!! I certainly wouldn't want rats or anything around my kids, but I know many people who would've loved to have rats as there only form of mistreatment by there parents when they were growing up.

 

[Melisinde]

I hope the mother gets an attorney and sues the landlord for criminal negligence resulting in death. This is one of the (rare) cases where punitive damages are justified. He was cited 380 times... at that one building! I understand there are rats no matter where you go and that it's not the easiest thing in the world, but 380 times!!! The mind just boggles. I'm not familiar with NY civil litigation procedures and the mother is more than 50% at fault (which in PA, you can't sue under those circumstances) but still... the landlord should be paying somehow for this.

 

[Amraann]

I am still not sure how I feel about this story..

When I had my farm .. My neighbor who also had a farm decided that the 200+ rats she bred were a bother to care for so she let them lose... and they did get into my house. Luckily my golden retriever was excellent at catching them.
I very soon after moved and she bought my house which in some way was justice since she created the problem.

I suppose I would need more info about this women's circumstances before I could just say she should not have a baby.

 

[JBean]

Actually, rats are not only in slums and high rises--They are also in mansions sometimes--Beverly Hills a few years ago had a huge rat problem--Many of those older mansions were infested--It was a big story then--not sure if the problem has been solved today or not--Have not heard o,f any rat problems here in Palm Beach, but I'm sure they are around in the poorer areas of the county

It is that way here in SoCal Peter. Many of our homes are built on slopes and they live and breed out there. they can get in the smallest space. Once one rat gets in, others follow their scent and gain access the same way. We never did find the point of entry at my house for sure. We plugged up every hole, checked the roof, kept food stored and locked away, kept the doors shut, baited traps ;everything the exterminator asked. he came on a daily basis to pick up the ones I caught. He told me they have test kitchens that they infest with rats so they can study their behavior. he said , left to their own devices, they can destroy a kitchen in no time.
These rats were incredibly bold. At first they would only come out at night. After awhile. they would come out when ever they damn well pleased.

It never occurred to me that this was a reflection on my parenting,that I cared any less about my kids, or that they had less of a chance of going to college than someone without rats. But it never occured to me because it wasn't the case.

 

[kcksum]

It is that way here in SoCal Peter. Many of our homes are built on slopes and they live and breed out there. they can get in the smallest space. Once one rat gets in, others follow their scent and gain access the same way. We never did find the point of entry at my house for sure. We plugged up every hole, checked the roof, kept food stored and locked away, kept the doors shut, baited traps ;everything the exterminator asked. he came on a daily basis to pick up the ones I caught. He told me they have test kitchens that they infest with rats so they can study their behavior. he said , left to their own devices, they can destroy a kitchen in no time.
These rats were incredibly bold. At first they would only come out at night. After awhile. they would come out when ever they damn well pleased.

It never occurred to me that this was a reflection on my parenting,that I cared any less about my kids, or that they had less of a chance of going to college than someone without rats. But it never occured to me because it wasn't the case.

you are so correct here. My sister live sin NYC. she is an international tax attorney and is married to a patton attorney....needless to say they make tons of money. They have a huge Rat issue in Gramercy park and when I asked her about it she said that rats in NYC are pigeons with legs. That they're just part of living here and that you get used to them. Sure enough, anytime I have been there day or night walking on the streets there are rats. NYC even freezes their trash while waiting to ship it off the island so as to keep the scent from attracting rats. There are hundreds of full time city employees who do nothing but deal with the rat problem.
Her rat problem was no indication of wether or not she could effectively raise a child. That was a ridiculous assumption and yes, very snobby.

 

[JBean]

you are so correct here. My sister live sin NYC. she is an international tax attorney and is married to a patton attorney....needless to say they make tons of money. They have a huge Rat issue in Gramercy park and when I asked her about it she said that rats in NYC are pigeons with legs. That they're just part of living here and that you get used to them. Sure enough, anytime I have been there day or night walking on the streets there are rats. NYC even freezes their trash while waiting to ship it off the island so as to keep the scent from attracting rats. There are hundreds of full time city employees who do nothing but deal with the rat problem.
Her rat problem was no indication of wether or not she could effectively raise a child. That was a ridiculous assumption and yes, very snobby.

Well the thing about getting rid of rats is that it is a 24/7 task and involves resources and time. I feel bad for renters because in cases I have seen , the landlord is foolishly not as motivated to get rid of the rats as much as the tenant is.But the tenant should not have to and often cannot foot the bill. I have seen several renters have to move out beause the landlord sent over an exterminator and thinks that will take care of it. It doesn't. I wasn't sure if we would ever get rid of them. Fortunately we did.
I had a rental property and the tenants contacted me about rats in the house. I did everything I could for them so that they could have a nice place to live and so it would protect my property. I might have blamed the tenant and not been so diligent if I had not had a problem already myself. My personal experience prompted me to be extremely proactive.

 

[Masterj]

Thanks to all the posters who are defending this woman. We don't know her circumstances and the reason why she stayed in that apartment. In NYC you typically need to front first and last month's rent and a month of security. Moving is not an easy solution if you are poor and don't have that kind of cash on hand.

The rat/roach problem is huge in NYC. One of the main problems is that many residences/businesses (seems to me especially bodegas and restaurants) do not dispose of their trash properly. There is nothing worse than walking down a NYC street at night when the sidewalks are lined with overflowing, nasty, leaking trashbags. I always make it a point to walk on the street when that is the case after the incident of the rat the size of a cat that ran over my foot.

Another problem is the constant demolition of buildings. When a building that housed rats is torn down, those suckers scurry around looking for a new home. When you have a lot of demolition going on at once, that is an insane number of rats running loose. This is a huge problem in Hartford, CT too.

 

[reb]

and in baltimore!! rats and roaches absolutely everywhere.
so take note, baltimorians-- no more breeding for you!!

 

[barb0301]

I really hate to see this woman being judged so harshly by some people. After reading the article, all I know about her living conditions is that she is a renter and has a rat infestation problem. Nowhere in the article does it say that she is lower income, working a menial job, or unable to provide a great life for this child. A lot of assumptions have been made. She could be living in a nice NY apartment - we don't know. As many posters have already stated, rats are equal opportunity boarders.

From the little information given in this article, it is as easy to assume that with the death of this child, the world has lost a future Nobel Peace Prize winner as it is to assume that this child is a future menial laborer.

If we judged everyone by the standards mentioned by some posters, approximately 12-14% of the US population should go childless. Much of the rest of the world would be childless, and therefore, uninhabited.

"While in any given year 12 to 14 percent of the population is poor, over a ten-year period 40 percent experience poverty in at least one year because most poor people cycle in and out of poverty; they don't stay poor for long periods, Poverty is something that happens to the working class, not some marginal "other" on the fringes of society." - Micheal Zweig, What's Class Got to do With It, American Society in the Twenty-first Century, 2004

​

Right now, all any of us can definitively say about this tragedy is that this mother has lost a child and deserves the sympathy normally afforded to a grieving mother.

______________________________
JMHO

 

[csds703]

I really hate to see this woman being judged so harshly by some people. After reading the article, all I know about her living conditions is that she is a renter and has a rat infestation problem. Nowhere in the article does it say that she is lower income, working a menial job, or unable to provide a great life for this child. A lot of assumptions have been made. She could be living in a nice NY apartment - we don't know. As many posters have already stated, rats are equal opportunity boarders.

From the little information given in this article, it is as easy to assume that with the death of this child, the world has lost a future Nobel Peace Prize winner as it is to assume that this child is a future menial laborer.

If we judged everyone by the standards mentioned by some posters, approximately 12-14% of the US population should go childless. Much of the rest of the world would be childless, and therefore, uninhabited.

"While in any given year 12 to 14 percent of the population is poor, over a ten-year period 40 percent experience poverty in at least one year because most poor people cycle in and out of poverty; they don't stay poor for long periods, Poverty is something that happens to the working class, not some marginal "other" on the fringes of society." - Micheal Zweig, What's Class Got to do With It, American Society in the Twenty-first Century, 2004



​

Right now, all any of us can definitively say about this tragedy is that this mother has lost a child and deserves the sympathy normally afforded to a grieving mother.


______________________________
JMHO

You are right.

 

[julianne]

I really hate to see this woman being judged so harshly by some people. After reading the article, all I know about her living conditions is that she is a renter and has a rat infestation problem. Nowhere in the article does it say that she is lower income, working a menial job, or unable to provide a great life for this child. A lot of assumptions have been made. She could be living in a nice NY apartment - we don't know. As many posters have already stated, rats are equal opportunity boarders.

From the little information given in this article, it is as easy to assume that with the death of this child, the world has lost a future Nobel Peace Prize winner as it is to assume that this child is a future menial laborer.

If we judged everyone by the standards mentioned by some posters, approximately 12-14% of the US population should go childless. Much of the rest of the world would be childless, and therefore, uninhabited.

"While in any given year 12 to 14 percent of the population is poor, over a ten-year period 40 percent experience poverty in at least one year because most poor people cycle in and out of poverty; they don't stay poor for long periods, Poverty is something that happens to the working class, not some marginal "other" on the fringes of society." - Micheal Zweig, What's Class Got to do With It, American Society in the Twenty-first Century, 2004



​

Right now, all any of us can definitively say about this tragedy is that this mother has lost a child and deserves the sympathy normally afforded to a grieving mother.


______________________________
JMHO

I think thats the best post made on this thread. So true.

 

[JBean]

I really hate to see this woman being judged so harshly by some people. After reading the article, all I know about her living conditions is that she is a renter and has a rat infestation problem. Nowhere in the article does it say that she is lower income, working a menial job, or unable to provide a great life for this child. A lot of assumptions have been made. She could be living in a nice NY apartment - we don't know. As many posters have already stated, rats are equal opportunity boarders.

From the little information given in this article, it is as easy to assume that with the death of this child, the world has lost a future Nobel Peace Prize winner as it is to assume that this child is a future menial laborer.

If we judged everyone by the standards mentioned by some posters, approximately 12-14% of the US population should go childless. Much of the rest of the world would be childless, and therefore, uninhabited.

"While in any given year 12 to 14 percent of the population is poor, over a ten-year period 40 percent experience poverty in at least one year because most poor people cycle in and out of poverty; they don't stay poor for long periods, Poverty is something that happens to the working class, not some marginal "other" on the fringes of society." - Micheal Zweig, What's Class Got to do With It, American Society in the Twenty-first Century, 2004







​

Right now, all any of us can definitively say about this tragedy is that this mother has lost a child and deserves the sympathy normally afforded to a grieving mother.




______________________________
JMHO

Really a good post Barb.
I just re read this thread carefully and was shocked at some of the illogical nonsense put out there. Some of it was downright offensive.

 

[GonzoReiter]

Originally Posted by barb0301[/url]

You are right.

...with extra credit to Barb for her ability to practice real diplomacy in her well stated rejoinder to those ill reasoned responses earlier in this thread.

welcome to WS, Barb...it seems to me that you have a sense of the stated mission of WS in your heart, something that often is overlooked in these various forii these days.