NY - Deborah Danner, 66, fatally shot by NYPD in her Bronx apt, 18 Oct 2016

[bluesneakers]

Investigators Ask If NYPD Officer Who Shot Woman Was Truly in Danger

According to a test question that is part of police academy training, officers are allowed to shoot a suspect wielding a baseball bat if “their backs are against a wall and there is no way to escape,” the official said. The question refers to one scenario, however, and doesn’t necessarily apply to similar situations.

In the case of Sgt. Barry, 30, there are questions as to whether he was truly in danger. Was his back against a wall or did he have a route to escape?

“There are no two situations, when it comes to the use of deadly force, that are alike,” Police Commissioner James O’Neill said on Monday when asked about the use of lethal force against someone wielding a baseball bat.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/investi...who-shot-woman-was-truly-in-danger-1477386001

 

[Dockins]

I still think bigger departments need mental health squads when those calls come in. In almost 20 years as a nurse in many settings, I have never seen a straitjacket. It's hard to get a posey vest (different restraint for chairs, etc) on an active person, so I cannot imagine someone being non compliant being fitted with a straitjacket?
As far as treatment for mental illness, aside from privacy laws and a myriad of other issues, the patients have rights, and one of those is to refuse treatment or medications. It's a slippery slope when medical rights are infringed upon, IMO. I don't know the solution, but it's not for lack of sleepless nights of how we can do better.

 

[Tawny]

I agree, the larger departments should have some sort of "swat" team for mental health situations. Or regional, even, and if they can. Some situations won't wait but a lot are able to be sort of "stand offs" until someone who knows what/how to do can show up.

There are other ways to subdue a schizophrenic elderly woman than a bullet to the chest. It was a baseball bat, get your riot gear on, you're eager to use it at protests. JMO.

 

[al66pine]

I agree, the larger departments should have some sort of "swat" team for mental health situations. Or regional, even, and if they can. Some situations won't wait but a lot are able to be sort of "stand offs" until someone who knows what/how to do can show up.

There are other ways to subdue a schizophrenic elderly woman than a bullet to the chest. It was a baseball bat, get your riot gear on, you're eager to use it at protests. JMO.

Interesting,the different ideas about when LE should use/not use “riot gear.”

Somethink LEOs responding to crowded ‘protest scene’ which has been site ofprevious nights’ violence, fist fights, brawls, shootings, arson, vandalizing, lootings,firebombs, etc. – should not wear riot gear there, totally inappropriate there, too ‘intimidating.’

^post suggests - in responding to call at apt. (however it was described to 911,IDK) LEO should wear riot gear.

Hmm.

 

[katydid23]

Interesting,the different ideas about when LE should use/not use “riot gear.”

Somethink LEOs responding to crowded ‘protest scene’ which has been site ofprevious nights’ violence, fist fights, brawls, shootings, arson, vandalizing, lootings,firebombs, etc. – should not wear riot gear there, totally inappropriate there, too ‘intimidating.’

^post suggests - in responding to call at apt. (however it was described to 911,IDK) LEO should wear riot gear.

Hmm.

I wonder if wearing RIOT GEAR would de-escalate a situation with a person with mental health issues? :no:

 

[bluesneakers]

Interesting,the different ideas about when LE should use/not use “riot gear.”

Somethink LEOs responding to crowded ‘protest scene’ which has been site ofprevious nights’ violence, fist fights, brawls, shootings, arson, vandalizing, lootings,firebombs, etc. – should not wear riot gear there, totally inappropriate there, too ‘intimidating.’

^post suggests - in responding to call at apt. (however it was described to 911,IDK) LEO should wear riot gear.

Hmm.

Perhaps if he'd been wearing riot gear he would have felt safer and not needlessly killed a sick woman.

Or maybe he should have been wearing shoes he could have run away in.

 

[bluesneakers]

I agree, the larger departments should have some sort of "swat" team for mental health situations. Or regional, even, and if they can. Some situations won't wait but a lot are able to be sort of "stand offs" until someone who knows what/how to do can show up.

There are other ways to subdue a schizophrenic elderly woman than a bullet to the chest. It was a baseball bat, get your riot gear on, you're eager to use it at protests. JMO.

NYPD has a system in place, according to what I've read, and the officer should have waited for the team to get there. That's one of the ways they failed this time. This officer had also had training on how to de-escalate and instead he chose to murder a woman who was in crisis. It's encouraging to hear the chief say “If we need to change the way we do business, we’ll do that.”

I agree with you they need to have a special crisis team for situations like this. When people need help they should know they can call and get help rather than call and maybe get help or maybe end up shot. What happens when people are too afraid to call 911 anymore?

 

[Tawny]

Interesting,the different ideas about when LE should use/not use “riot gear.”

Somethink LEOs responding to crowded ‘protest scene’ which has been site ofprevious nights’ violence, fist fights, brawls, shootings, arson, vandalizing, lootings,firebombs, etc. – should not wear riot gear there, totally inappropriate there, too ‘intimidating.’

^post suggests - in responding to call at apt. (however it was described to 911,IDK) LEO should wear riot gear.

Hmm.

I wonder if wearing RIOT GEAR would de-escalate a situation with a person with mental health issues? :no:

First, recognize sarcasm. It was dry humor.

Second, it was a baseball bat. There is equipment you can don to protect yourself from that before double tapping an elderly woman.

But maybe I'm crazy too.

 

[al66pine]

First, recognize sarcasm. It was dry humor.

Second, it was a baseball bat. There is equipment you can don to protect yourself from that before double tapping an elderly woman.

But maybe I'm crazy too.

If an LEO had been forewarned about a woman threatening w scissors, what defensive equipment would be appropriate? Would LEO show up w a riot shield?

To protect self from attacker now w baseball bat, what equipment should LEO don? A riot helmet? Can LEO can dash back to patrol vehicle and grab riot helmet? Doubtful but say he does. Then if woman puts down baseball bat to pick up 40 caliber gun & aim it at LEO, does he say “Excuse me, ma’am, just gotta get something from the car, be backin a flash.” (Yes, a touch of sarcasm here.)

We see these situations w 20/20 hindsight and can say LEO woulda/coulda/shoulda,but LEOs don’t have the luxury of time for leisurely decision making on defending self. Not saying this officer handled it perfectly. Not saying NYPD has infallible use-of-force policies, or ideal training. Not saying our country offers complete mental health care for all mentally ill persons.

Just saying, at any given moment, virtually any LEO can be attacked, wounded, and/or killed on the job by virtually anyone. ^ JM2cts.

RIP Deborah Danner.

 

[Tawny]

What's your suggestion to prevent unnecessary shootings? It seems we tend to say "oh well" and call it a tragedy but why is it such a bad thing to try to suggest alternative actions?

 

[PositiveLight]

NYPD Commissioner: Fatal Bronx Shooting Of Woman ‘Agency Failure’

From NYPD Commissioner James O’Neill:




Then from the Sergeants Benevolent Association:
:blah:

"O’Neill again raised questions about why Barry didn’t use his Taser to stop Danner. He said the NYPD now has over 1,700 Tasers – 12 for each precinct."

This quote jumped out at me. Only 12 tasers for each precinct? This means that it's VERY possible he didn't have a taser on him when the tragedy occurred. That his only option if he couldn't get away from her and feared for his life, was to shoot. I wish he had shot her in a non fatal area however. I feel for her family. It's a tragedy for sure. But it's quite possible that the cop felt it was his only option. Cops do have a right to protect themselves. The way it has been recently with LE, they are fearing for their lives more now than ever. How many cases have recently occurred where the cops were called to what they thought was a domestic disturbance and ended up being gunned down? That it was a setup.
Not saying AT ALL this is what happened here. Just saying that LE have more fear for their lives now and are more on edge I'm sure due to all of this recent anti LE sentiment. Domestic disturbance calls now are more frightening to cops I'm sure because they are human and have human emotions. I'm curious though. What was the initial 911 caller saying? Was she threatening to kill someone? Why were the cops called exactly?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Sillybilly]

To accommodate all the new people coming to Websleuths because of the docuseries we are moving to a much bigger and faster server.

This is just a reminder that the Websleuths forum will be down starting Wednesday (tomorrow) at 6 PM Eastern. We hope to be back up by Thursday morning.

Members can check for updates on Twitter and Facebook.

 

[bluesneakers]

A few snips from this:
After a Shooting Death, How to Protect the Mentally Ill — and the Police

Linda Wilson, from the Staten Island chapter of the National Alliance on Mental Illness, read the essay. She says news of Danner’s death made her numb with frustration.

"We keep saying the same things over and over," Wilson said. "Why aren’t trained people sent out to our people?"

Without more-widespread training of officers, Wilson said that families are taking a risk when they call 911 to report that a loved one is having a breakdown. And so she tells families to take precautions. And to make certain some things are clear.

“My family member has mental illness. He’s not taking his medication. There are no weapons in the house,” she said. “And then we even tell them to meet the police outside their house or apartment so that the police look at them and think, 'Well, you know, the family doesn’t look completely out of whack'…and so it calms the policemen down.”

One strategy is to have patients fill out documents, similar to do-not-resuscitate-orders, that describe how they should be approached when they’ve lost the ability to think rationally.

“They use past experience to say, ‘You know, when I’m acting in this way that seems bizarre or assaultive or impaired, this is what catches my attention, this is what helps me listen,'” said Dr. Paula Panzer, chief clinical and medical officer at the Jewish Board of Family and Children Services, which runs dozens of clinics across the city. “And that can be turned over to the helper, including the police when they are called,” Panzer said.

'
More, including more personal information about Danner.

 

[FindHG]

Hey bluesneakz, thanks for the updates:

Saw this in the New York Post 10/24 and also heard New York City's First Lady Ms. Chirlane McCray speak about it on the radio:

[...]

"The program, dubbed NYC Well, was announced Monday by Chirlane McCray, wife of mayor de Blasio, and a mental health advocate, at a press conference in Queens."

[...]


https://nycwell.cityofnewyork.us/en/ available in IIRC in 200 languages


That's the kind of intervention that saves everybody hurt, at the point of crisis, if people know about it, apart from what services would be available thereafter.

 

[bluesneakers]

"O’Neill again raised questions about why Barry didn’t use his Taser to stop Danner. He said the NYPD now has over 1,700 Tasers – 12 for each precinct."

This quote jumped out at me. Only 12 tasers for each precinct? This means that it's VERY possible he didn't have a taser on him when the tragedy occurred. That his only option if he couldn't get away from her and feared for his life, was to shoot. I wish he had shot her in a non fatal area however. I feel for her family. It's a tragedy for sure. But it's quite possible that the cop felt it was his only option. Cops do have a right to protect themselves. The way it has been recently with LE, they are fearing for their lives more now than ever. How many cases have recently occurred where the cops were called to what they thought was a domestic disturbance and ended up being gunned down? That it was a setup.
Not saying AT ALL this is what happened here. Just saying that LE have more fear for their lives now and are more on edge I'm sure due to all of this recent anti LE sentiment. Domestic disturbance calls now are more frightening to cops I'm sure because they are human and have human emotions. I'm curious though. What was the initial 911 caller saying? Was she threatening to kill someone? Why were the cops called exactly?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

From here: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/nyregion/nypd-sergeant-fatal-shooting-bronx-woman.html?_r=0

The confrontation that left Ms. Danner dead began with a 911 call at 6:05 p.m. on Tuesday from a neighbor, who reported that Ms. Danner was acting erratically. It was not the first time the police had been summoned to the building at 630 Pugsley Avenue to deal with her, and initially it appeared that the episode inside her seventh-floor apartment would end peacefully.

Sergeant Barry persuaded her to put down a pair of scissors she was holding in her bedroom, according to initial police accounts. But then, according to those same accounts, Ms. Danner picked up a baseball bat and tried to swing at Sergeant Barry. He fired twice, fatally wounding her, the police said. Several other officers were at the scene, but none of them, except Sergeant Barry, were in the bedroom.

In faulting the officer’s actions, Mr. de Blasio said Sergeant Barry should have waited for more specialized officers, from the department’s elite Emergency Service Unit, to arrive. The mayor also noted that Sergeant Barry was equipped with a stun gun that he could have used to try to subdue Ms. Danner.

“There was an opportunity to slow things down here and wait to get everything set up the right way,” Mr. de Blasio said.

 

[Tawny]

So they DO have special units for this... and he had a stun gun?

 

[bluesneakers]

So they DO have special units for this... and he had a stun gun?

Yes and yes.

Hence the "We failed."

 

[PositiveLight]

From here: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/20/nyregion/nypd-sergeant-fatal-shooting-bronx-woman.html?_r=0

Thank you for the clarification blue!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[0101ABA]

NYPD Sergeant Charged With Murder in Shooting Death of Mentally Ill Bronx Woman

The NYPD sergeant who shot and killed a 66-year-old mentally ill woman in her Bronx apartment last year faces second-degree murder and other charges in her death, NBC 4 New York first reported Wednesday.

Sgt. Hugh Barry, 31, surrendered to authorities and pleaded not guilty Wednesday afternoon in the October 2016 death of Deborah Danner, who was schizophrenic.

 

[bluesneakers]

I was not expecting that.