Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - #12

[Abigail]

Clues that the 911 caller might be the perp

“Genuine 911 callers have one goal in mind; to get medical assistance to respond as soon as possible…They don’t care about being polite, offer explanations … or offer extraneous information..

“On the other hand, …fake 911 callers tended to distance themselves from their victims. Although relatively rare, one of the most telling clues was when the caller either insulted or blamed the victim at the same time they were asking for help.”

Since the real goal of a guilty party’s 911 call is to establish his innocence, it makes sense that the focus of the call would be on the caller instead of the victim. In comparison to genuine calls for help, fake 911 callers tended to ask for help for themselves as opposed to their victims.

The goals of deceptive versus genuine 911 callers are different. …To start the cover story that will hopefully persuade the audience of his innocence; the other is to get immediate… attention for a …loved one. These vastly different goals inevitably influence the way these 911 callers communicate to emergency dispatchers, and the words they use are the first evidence in what will turn out to either be a criminal prosecution for the caller — or a tragedy.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-equation/201304/lying-murder-and-deceptive-911-calls

 

[Solus]

It is my belief that in the vast majority of cases, people have no idea at all someone is a potential killer. It is just a bit more comforting I suppose, to think ordinary people don't do it, and if we were in danger, we would be able tell somehow; they would give clues that we could pick up on, and so avoid being murdered ourselves.

It is hard to believe a friend can be guilty of murdering someone, when the clues are there, it is easy to find alternative explanation for them.

 

[Abigail]

A poster on another thread told me the majority of murderers only murder once. I don't know the details of those stats - maybe it's because many are in prison for so long they are not physically capable of murdering again when released? Whatever the reason, it seems to imply most murderers can be rehabilitated, if true. I doubt it would apply to cases where domestic violence culminates in murder, as there seems to be a huge problem with repeat offending with domestic violence against spouses/partners.

Not that stats make any difference to me; I'd just think, 'If they have done it once they could do it again, to me'. I'm no gambler where murder is concerned. I wouldn't trust my own judgement, or anybody elses. You wouldn't see me for dust.

Been looking up recidivism rates -- apparently officially defined as whether a person released from prison for a specific crime then commits another crime and returns to prison within 3 years of release.

This Florida study shows a 25% recidivism rate for murderers; however, a study that followed former inmates for over 8 years showed a 45% recidivism rate.
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/secretary/press/2010/recidivismstudy.pdf

This Canadian study shows a 22.5% recidivism rate for murderers -- similar to the FL study. However, we should note that the crimes for which prisoners were returned to prison were not always murder. It could be for a violation of parole or any number of crimes.

 

[LivingJuicy]

It is hard to believe a friend can be guilty of murdering someone, when the clues are there, it is easy to find alternative explanation for them.

Solus, sorry that you had a friend who committed murder but also lie to you. You deserve better and I'm glad you are no longer believing his lies.

 

[LivingJuicy]

Solus, reflecting back, is there anything you can share in your opinion only in regards to their relationship, his behavior around November - January and his response and behavior once Jenn was found.

I know you stood up for your friend but was there any part of you that doubted him? I would love to talk to you!!!!

How are you feeling now?

 

[Solus]

Solus, reflecting back, is there anything you can share in your opinion only in regards to their relationship, his behavior around November - January and his response and behavior once Jenn was found.

I know you stood up for your friend but was there any part of you that doubted him? I would love to talk to you!!!!

How are you feeling now?

Back in November he stayed with me for almost two weeks. We discussed it quite a lot. He was wanting to get a divorce. He had discussed getting a loan on the house and giving her half of it so that she could get her own place. He was positive that he would keep both the house and kids. Originally He wanted to wait until after the holidays though so that the kids wouldn't associate the holidays with divorce. However that opinion had started to change.

 

[Abigail]

Back in November he stayed with me for almost two weeks. We discussed it quite a lot. He was wanting to get a divorce. He had discussed getting a loan on the house and giving her half of it so that she could get her own place. He was positive that he would keep both the house and kids. Originally He wanted to wait until after the holidays though so that the kids wouldn't associate the holidays with divorce. However that opinion had started to change.

Oh my...positive that he would keep both the house and the kids -- that wasn't very realistic, was it?

 

[Solus]

Oh my...positive that he would keep both the house and the kids -- that wasn't very realistic, was it?

Once he puts his mind to something it is not easy to change his mind. I tried to explain that Jen wouldn't give up so easily on the custody. He was positive that she would see that the kids staying in the house with him would be what was best.

 

[Jilllian]

Back in November he stayed with me for almost two weeks. We discussed it quite a lot. He was wanting to get a divorce. He had discussed getting a loan on the house and giving her half of it so that she could get her own place. He was positive that he would keep both the house and kids. Originally He wanted to wait until after the holidays though so that the kids wouldn't associate the holidays with divorce. However that opinion had started to change.

I'm sorry you're going through this, Solus.

I hope you're reaching out to Lt. Cobb.

Quite the stretch to imagine him keeping the house and the children, unless his plan was for ES to move in to replace Jen. In his mind, this was probably what he wanted, and narcissists expect to get what they want, and are confused, angry and impulsive when it doesn't happen.

No way Jen wouldn't have fought hard to keep the kids, and she would have gotten them. If ES wasn't in the picture, I doubt he would have even entertained the idea of being a single father, cooking their meals, cleaning the house, taking them here and there, helping with homework, etc.

She most likely would have not only gotten the house, 1/2 his pension, spousal support, a third of his income for child support, half of properties and other investments, her car, medical insurance, etc. etc.

In my opinion, in his mind, he had everything to lose by not killing Jen (including the loss of his playmate).

 

[Solus]

.

Quite the stretch to imagine him keeping the house and the children, unless his plan was for ES to move in to replace Jen.

ES made him very happy. He wanted to be with her.

 

[Sharoneonta]

<Mod Snip>
Sounds like Jenn's happiness wasn't a factor to him.

She lost:
Her husband
Her best friend
Her job
And he wanted the kids and the house too.


swear word!

 

[Sharoneonta]

Oh yeah: HER LIFE

 

[Solus]

Nevermind. I hope you didn't call Jenn a friend. Sounds like you knew full well what was going on between GR and ES and were quite sympathetic toward your buddy. Was ANYONE looking out for Jenn??!!
.

Jenn was a friend. GR was my best friend. Yes, I knew full well what was going on between GR and ES. I've known since February of 2012. I saw how happy he was with her.

You are correct though, I wasn't looking out for Jen. I thought it would end in divorce which, would have hurt her. I never contemplated it would turn out the way it did.

 

[Sharoneonta]

Jenn was a friend. GR was my best friend. Yes, I knew full well what was going on between GR and ES. I've known since February of 2012. I saw how happy he was with her.

You are correct though, I wasn't looking out for Jen. I thought it would end in divorce which, would have hurt her. I never contemplated it would turn out the way it did.

I appreciate your honesty.

 

[Abigail]

We know that Jennifer had made an appointment with a divorce lawyer prior to her death. But...why? :waitasec:

It's likely that GR was intending to divorce Jennifer. He was heard to say that he intended to spend the rest of his life with ES.

That makes me wonder...was divorce something they had mutually agreed on? Or...did GR want the divorce, and was Jennifer contesting it? As a Catholic, Jennifer could still receive the sacraments if she divorced (especially if she were the innocent party), but she would not be free to date or remarry (unless she were able to get an annulment).

Did Jennifer contact a divorce attorney to contest a divorce that GR wanted? Wanting to keep the family together for the sake of the children and for her faith?

Or, did Jennifer contact a divorce lawyer because she'd discovered the affair between GR and ES? Was she aware that GR was (hypothetically) also planning a divorce?

Or, had they mutually agreed to a divorce, but GR was wanting to go through the process without them retaining lawyers, in hopes of manipulating the best settlement for himself (with regard to house, children)?

Did Jennifer make the appointment with a lawyer to protect her rights and those of her children?

 

[Abigail]

I think it likely that GR would try to manipulate Jennifer into giving up the house and children in a divorce settlement. And...Jennifer seemed to be a fairly easy-going person who normally would be compliant with GR's wishes, wishing to keep the peace. Perhaps he didn't expect a battle.

But...I think...in the case of the children, the lioness in her would have roared. She would have dug in her heels and simply refused to give up physical custody (although she may have agreed to joint legal custody). Her children were her life. Everyone who knew her said that. If for nothing else, that would be why she would seek to hire an attorney.

So...a custody battle likely looming...who would likely win?

The court would appoint experts to investigate both parents and the family situation to determine what would be in the best interest of the children.

One factor in GR's side would be that he'd be better able to provide them with their (financial) care -- having a long-term job with a comfortable income, compared to Jennifer, who'd mostly been a fulltime housewife or worked as a home health aide, and wouldn't have a lot of employment opportunities in rural Chenango County.

However, every other factor would support Jennifer as the primary parent. Evaluation by a mental health professional would reveal GR's volatile nature and Jennifer's calm and composed nature. The children's young age, two of them being girls, and, most importantly, Jennifer had always been the primary parent to her children. Her employer would be quick to testify (as we've already read in the Daily Star) that GR couldn't be bothered to even feed the kids when Jennifer was working. GR seemed to want to be the "fun" parent -- taking the kids to visit Santa, while Jennifer stayed at home to cook the holiday dinner. A judge would probably consider him an excellent candidate for weekend visitation, but Jennifer the more responsible choice for the day to day care of the kids.

IMO, Jennifer would almost surely win a custody case -- she would keep the kids.

 

[marlywings]

Just a reminder folks as this is most important!! Please stick to discussing only what has been reported in media & by our verified insiders.

 

[Abigail]

Highly likely Jennifer would win physical custody of the kids. In which case, GR would have to pay her child support.

The formula in NY state for 3 children is 29% of the non-custodial parent's income.

As a project manager for IBM, GR's salary was probably in the $75,000 to $90,000 range.

Therefore, he'd need to pay Jennifer at least $21,000 a year in child support, probably more.

He may have begrudged her that.

 

[Abigail]

Chances are, Jennifer would have won child custody, and GR would have had to pay her child support.

He may have also had to pay her spousal support.

What would the court consider?
1) Disparity between incomes (an IBM project manager making around $75,000 to $90,000 a year versus a housewife. Or versus a home health aide at $18,000 to $24,000 if working fulltime)

2) Duration of the marriage (14 years)

3) Health of the parties (Jennifer's fibromyalgia may have factored in)

Jennifer probably wouldn't have received permanent alimony. But since she'd been mostly a housewife during most of their marriage, the judge would have probably granted her spousal support for a set period of time so she could get back on her feet. I'm guessing likely long enough for her to complete a degree so she could earn enough income on her own.

 

[zwiebel]

It is hard to believe a friend can be guilty of murdering someone, when the clues are there, it is easy to find alternative explanation for them.

Yes. Even if it is hard to find an alternative explanation, people will do it. Of course they will; friends as well as family. Sadly, it is often the kindest and most loyal people who suffer the most damage, because they can be exploited the most, to benefit the murderer. That's why I think all bets are off about what a person is really 'like' after they have committed murder - I'm convinced that in the vast majority of cases it causes a huge shift in all the values that person may previously have held dear.

Other than stealing a life, I think one of the most damaging things a murderer can do is cause people to lose their trust, faith and loyalty in their fellow man, and lose their kindness, as well. Thank heavens, despite everything, I do not think that will happen in Jennifer's case. I am certain her legacy is going to be one of kindness and caring and the memory of her is going to be carefully nurtured by loving people, for Jennifer's sake, and her childrens' sake.

All the dust will eventually settle on this case, and I don't believe anyone should regret seeing it disappear onto the ground, where it belongs. Having the burden of a murder victim to carry through life is a heavy one, but one loved ones shoulder without hesitation. I think that's right. I would never advise anyone to shoulder the burden of carrying a murderer though, unless they really have no choice - there is simply nothing to be gained and everything to be lost, in my opinion.