Found Deceased NY - Jennifer Ramsaran, 36, Chenango County, 11 Dec 2012 - #12

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  • #781
Solus - I wanted to thank you for getting verified and for speaking up. It's the right thing to do. You may have information that could really help (and may not even know it!!) in justice prevailing.

I hope you don't mind but I have a few questions - answer whatever you are comfortable with!

To your knowledge, had GR had a history of cheating on Jennifer?
Did you ever see him physically or verbally abuse her or become enraged with anyone in general?
Did you ever get to know ES?
<Mod Snip>
Again, thank you so much for stepping up and doing the right thing!!! :)
 
  • #782
It's okay Sharoneta you weren't wrong.

I'm not sure how much she knew. I was present while GR was talking with Jen via FaceTime when Jen made a comment about ES being his trophy wife. When GR asked why she would say something like that. Jen said "she wasn't an idiot". Then made mention of GR offering to keep ES dogs at the their house, when he wouldn't have ever done it for anyone else.

To me, that really sounds like Jennifer was pretty sure an affair was going on, or was about to happen. If she knew someone else was listening in, I'd say she was certain.

Just because I think people can be hurt a lot by the idea of friends knowing about a partner's adultery, and feeling pity for the betrayed partner's 'unawareness'. She might have wanted you to know she wasn't an idiot too.
 
  • #783
To your knowledge, had GR had a history of cheating on Jennifer?
Did you ever see him physically or verbally abuse her or become enraged with anyone in general?
Did you ever get to know ES?
<Mod Snip>

I've never seen GR be physically abusive to anyone. He was never verbally abusive to Jen around me.

I have spoken to ES on many occasions. Though the majority of our conversations have been though SMS/MMS.

<Mod Snip>
 
  • #784
Just because I think people can be hurt a lot by the idea of friends knowing about a partner's adultery, and feeling pity for the betrayed partner's 'unawareness'. She might have wanted you to know she wasn't an idiot too.

I'm not sure if she was aware at that point that I was within ear shot. They spoke on FaceTime several times of day. Even if they had been arguing earlier. They would communicate very frequently. Many times I would go smoke while they were talking or I'd be on the computer with headphones on.
 
  • #785
Abigail, I was really looking forward to reading the psychology today blog you linked, when I had some time this evening. But it seems to have vanished. How disappointing.

Oh dear, it's still working for me. Maybe you could try typing in the title, and see what happens:
Big Lies and the Boogie Man: The Dance of High Stakes Deception

Maybe you can't access the blog because of your country's rules, but you may be able to access the actual research -- I'm assuming you'd be able to access Psychology Today online?
 
  • #786
  • #787
I'm not sure if she was aware at that point that I was within ear shot. They spoke on FaceTime several times of day. Even if they had been arguing earlier. They would communicate very frequently. Many times I would go smoke while they were talking or I'd be on the computer with headphones on.

Do you mean that GR and JR would be communicating via FaceTime with each other?? When they were in the same house? I'm not even sure what FaceTime is -- is this something you do vocally (like Skype) rather than typing? And that others can listen in on?

Another question -- has LE interviewed you? If so, did you share GR's divorce plans? That might be something they already know, but then again, it might not.

Oh, another question (sorry!) Do you know if Jennifer knew about GR's divorce plans (the ones you mentioned before, that got deleted, that he was planning to divorce her but had decided he'd wait til after the holidays, and was sure he'd get the house and children)?
 
  • #788
Didn't GR leave the family home for a couple of months? I thought Solus meant it was during that period GR spoke to Jennifer via facetime. In my experience, background people/noises (and flipping dogs) come over loud and clear during these conversations. So Jennifer might have thought someone could hear the conversation, even if that person wasn't actually listening, if you know what I mean.

It looks like access to Psychology Today is barred for people in Germany. :( Must be copyright or licencing rules. Is an author credited? I might be able to look their work up somewhere else.
 
  • #789
I'm not sure if she was aware at that point that I was within ear shot. They spoke on FaceTime several times of day. Even if they had been arguing earlier. They would communicate very frequently. Many times I would go smoke while they were talking or I'd be on the computer with headphones on.

Solus, were you able to pick up any idea if GR's parents are likely to be standing by him, and if the family has resources/willingness to raise bail? Did he ever mention returning to the Netherlands, or going overseas?
 
  • #790
  • #791
It looks like access to Psychology Today is barred for people in Germany. :( Must be copyright or licencing rules. Is an author credited? I might be able to look their work up somewhere else.
Big Lies and the Boogie Man
False abduction stories and murder
Published on April 26, 2013 by Joni E. Johnston, Psy.D. in The Human Equation

Summary of article:
Begins with a couple examples of mothers who falsely claimed their children were abducted when, in fact, they had murdered them.

Question: do lying murderers show tell-tale signs of deception when making a plea for their relative's return in front of camera?
Answer: most people are not able to spot a lie -- even seasoned police detectives.

2012 study in the Journal of Law and Behavior (Zwiebel -- maybe you can pull this one up -- this is the study referenced in the article)
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/2011-29347-001/
Cry me a river: Identifying the behavioral consequences of extremely high-stakes interpersonal deception.
ten Brinke, Leanne; Porter, Stephen
Law and Human Behavior, Vol 36(6), Dec 2012

In this study, researchers skilled in behavioral analysis viewed 78 videotapes of persons pleading for the return of a missing relative. About half of the videos were of guilty murderers, and half were innocent relatives, but the reviewers did not know which was which. Following certain cues regarding speech, body language, and emotional facial expressions, the behavioral analysts were able to correctly discern which relatives were murderers in 90% of the cases. "Failed attempts to simulate sadness and leakage of happiness revealed deceptive pleaders' covert emotions."

Selected quotes from Psychology Today blog:
"For example, throughout the entire publicized plea, genuinely distressed innocent relatives displayed sincere, full-face sadness and distress. In contrast, the faces of deceptive murderers were more likely to express mixed emotions (a surprised brow, a smirk, a sudden smile) in the face of an extremely grim subject. In particular, the facial expressions of murderers were more likely to contain the raised upper lip of disgust even when talking about the terror and sadness they were experiencing. (Although we don&#8217;t know the source of this disgust, the researchers hypothesized that disgust in this context was either an involuntary visceral reaction to the act of murder the deceptive pleader engaged in just days before, moral disgust or shame concerning one's actions, or a lingering revulsion for the victim).

In addition, the words deceptive pleaders used show the cognitive effort &#8211; and emotional strain &#8211; of living the lie. Deceptive pleaders, for instance, used fewer and more tentative, words throughout the plea, especially when directly appealing to the public for help. Deceptive murderers used tentative words to (unconsciously) avoid commitment in their words to distance themselves from or subtly communicate knowledge of a transgression. In this way, deceptive murderers subtly acknowledge that the victim will not be found alive, avoid commitment to the lie, and mitigate the psychological conflict resulting from the discrepancy between their secretly held and outwardly expressed knowledge."
 
  • #792
GR's last interview is one of the things that haunts me, in a sense I coached him and begged him to LU. By coaching, I mean I told him what everyone was saying -- one of the most talked about was his lack of emotion and crocodile tears -- Even though by that time I had already believed GR was responsible, I told him to think of Jen's face and her beautiful smile and how'd he'd feel if he could never hold her, hug her or kiss her ever again - I told him he would cry real tears.

When I watched the interview and saw him doing exactly what I had suggested, I felt like he was picturing what he had done to her. I felt so horrible because in my mind it hadn't played out as creepy and evil as it did on the news that night. My heart sank because I thought I had done something so truly horrible and evil myself -- I know what was meant by my telling him to do that and I wanted him to hurt for what he had done to Jen -- I never in a million years would have said a thing to him if I had only known what evil could come out of him

Hints of deception in that last interview:
Taking another look at... http://www.9wsyr.com/mostpopular/st...ce-in-wifes-death/NAO7jKz5I0mj5avBjsngUg.cspx

a surprised brow...

Eyebrows raised all the way through these phrases: “the not knowing…was brutal and it’s tough…but now…that my wife was hurt…I want vengeance. Screw justice, I want vengeance.”
Again, eyebrows raised on “…the way my wife was found…was really a tip”

In particular, the facial expressions of murderers were more likely to contain the raised upper lip of disgust
A fleeting raised upper lip in sneer when he says word “hurt” (“now, that my wife was hurt”)
Again, raises upper lip when he says word “tip” (“the way my wife was found…was really a tip”)
Again, raises upper lip when describing how he found Jennifer’s cell phone (“over the bridge”)

faster blinking

Eye flutter on word “but” in between sentences…”The husband is always the number one suspect… but…there’s nothing in the house.”

slower speech with more hesitations
“The not knowing…was brutal and it’s tough…but now, that my wife was hurt……I want vengeance, screw justice, I want vengeance.”
“The way the body…the way my wife was found…was really a tip
 
  • #793
I'm not sure if she was aware at that point that I was within ear shot. They spoke on FaceTime several times of day. Even if they had been arguing earlier. They would communicate very frequently. Many times I would go smoke while they were talking or I'd be on the computer with headphones on.

At this point in time and under the circumstances described, I believe that this wife not only knows her husband is conducting an extramarital affair, but she has also correctly identified the other woman (OW).

She lets husband know she is aware of both ^^ (statement from your other post #780), but when he asks why she would say that, she messes with his head (and in essence, the OW's), by referring to his housing the other woman's dogs...as if that is a solid piece of proof of an affair. IMO, she's "playing them" now. Screwing around with them now.

She wants him (and the OW) off balance, off kilter. To conduct and get away with an affair with her BFF for a decent amount of time, much mind-screwing of Jenn would have occurred...by both husband and OW. They have conducted this affair believing she is naive, gullible, not as savvy, and certainly not as clever and bright as they believe they are (Do you think I am an idiot?), and at this point, she'll play that role when she needs to.

She is not in the same room nor space with him. She does not believe a word that comes from his lips nor from the OW's (at this point in time), and will assume anyone may be occupying the physical space with him and hear their conversation.

They continue to speak often and daily in spite of the arguments because each is trying to learn the other's strategy and gather more information. The divorce war is on (does not matter that papers have not been drawn up, served, etc).

All my opinions only.
 
  • #794
It's okay Sharoneta you weren't wrong.

I'm not sure how much she knew. I was present while GR was talking with Jen via FaceTime when Jen made a comment about ES being his trophy wife. When GR asked why she would say something like that. Jen said "she wasn't an idiot". Then made mention of GR offering to keep ES dogs at the their house, when he wouldn't have ever done it for anyone else.

At what point in time (month) is this ^^?

What explanation did he give Jennifer that he is staying at your place during this time period? Had he told her he was running in a race, or that he needed time away from the marriage, home and her?
 
  • #795
At what point in time (month) is this ^^?

What explanation did he give Jennifer that he is staying at your place during this time period? Had he told her he was running in a race, or that he needed time away from the marriage, home and her?

He had been in VA doing a race. Then came from there to here. He had been here in March of 2012 when we went to New Orleans. At that time we had made plans to go to Savannah GA for a run on Nov 3rd 2012. This particular trip had been planned for about 6 months. It wasn't meant as a chance to get away. He was here almost two weeks surrounding that weekend.
 
  • #796
Do you mean that GR and JR would be communicating via FaceTime with each other?? When they were in the same house? I'm not even sure what FaceTime is -- is this something you do vocally (like Skype) rather than typing? And that others can listen in on?

Another question -- has LE interviewed you? If so, did you share GR's divorce plans? That might be something they already know, but then again, it might not.

Oh, another question (sorry!) Do you know if Jennifer knew about GR's divorce plans (the ones you mentioned before, that got deleted, that he was planning to divorce her but had decided he'd wait til after the holidays, and was sure he'd get the house and children)?

Facetime allows you to talk via video so that you see the person through the speaker so anyone in the room can hear. This was from Alabama to New York.

LE called me about a week after Jen was missing. I did discuss with them, the conversations I had with GR regarding the divorce. He had told me that he had already mentioned it to them, so it wasn't new information.

During the time he was here, he texted her stating that he wanted a divorce. Which from what he told me was actually the 3rd time it had been said. She called after the text and was obviously crying so I went outside. I didn't hear what all was said during that conversation. What ever was said he had told her that he or they could try to work it out. He never intended on staying with her, but was delaying till after the holidays.
 
  • #797
Solus, were you able to pick up any idea if GR's parents are likely to be standing by him, and if the family has resources/willingness to raise bail? Did he ever mention returning to the Netherlands, or going overseas?

I spoke to his parents after he was arrested the first time, to see if they had any information. They were fixing to meet with the bail bonds person to make arrangements.

His parents obviously care for him and believed him as well. His poor mom could barely talk because she was so upset.

He doesn't have a passport any more, it expired. He thinks he can beat a circumstantial case. I've never had reason to believe he would be a flight risk.
 
  • #798
Thanks Solus. The texting asking for a divorce is pretty hard to hear, and pretty heartbreaking. It sounds like Jennifer was fighting to save her marriage, and consulted a divorce attorney only when she was certain GR had made up his mind.

Maybe that's the reason she didn't seem to share the problems with her marriage - she was hoping it would all work out fine. :(
 
  • #799
The passport info is very important, I think. I totally respect that GR never struck you as a flight risk, but people can do unexpected things. Do you mind me asking how the subject came up? Was it something GR specifically mentioned after Jennifer was found deceased, or just part of an unconnected conversation you'd had long before?
 
  • #800
The passport info is very important, I think. I totally respect that GR never struck you as a flight risk, but people can do unexpected things. Do you mind me asking how the subject came up? Was it something GR specifically mentioned after Jennifer was found deceased, or just part of an unconnected conversation you'd had long before?

He has done a lot that has surprised me. He has just never said anything to suggest he would. We never talked about him needing to leave. We always spoke as if it was assumed he was innocent.

Even at times when I suspected. We had already discussed his phone being tapped. I wouldn't have gotten a straight answer. He wouldn't have admitted to it that way. I'm not sure if he would ever tell me. I hope he wouldn't ever feel that it would be okay to tell me.
 
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