Identified! NY - Mount Vernon, WhtFem 51UFNY, 18-25, Left Near Junkyard, Feb'88 - Veronica Wiederhold

  • #481
My friend Joe, whose family has been in MV for generations, seemed to think it might have been mob connected. I believe they still do have some businesses down by Carleton and I am sure they had more in the 1980s when there were more Italians still living here.

They did and they still do. Street just next to Carleton. Business owned by two brothers related to one of the biggest mob bosses. I think they would be in their mid twenties at the time. Having also the same surname as the mob boss.

Despite this, I am still not so sure though about mob connection. Most of their victims were shot. Of course except of Isabel Rizzo case, which was quite similar and happened only 2-3 month prior to MVJD. Hmm now that I am thinking about it..

Jess, just out of curiosity, can I ask your friend's reasons he thinks mob might be involved?

Btw, Carleton 10 (weird pink building) was part of another business. Buildings 9, 10, and 11 Carleton, all belong/ed to the same company.
 
  • #482
They did and they still do. Street just next to Carleton. Business owned by two brothers related to one of the biggest mob bosses. I think they would be in their mid twenties at the time. Having also the same surname as the mob boss.

Hmm, not sure which business you refer to, but there are (or were) plenty of them down there at that time.

Despite this, I am still not so sure though about mob connection. Most of their victims were shot. Of course except of Isabel Rizzo case, which was quite similar and happened only 2-3 month prior to MVJD. Hmm now that I am thinking about it..

There was a case, Robin Lynn Vitulli, she was killed by the Gottis and was allegedly one of their "side women." See link below:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...aks-justice-24-years-anguish-article-1.381033

Jess, just out of curiosity, can I ask your friend's reasons he thinks mob might be involved?

Because of the similarity to the above case; the known mob activity in Mount Vernon, particularly in the area near Carleton.

Btw, Carleton 10 (weird pink building) was part of another business. Buildings 9, 10, and 11 Carleton, all belong/ed to the same company.

Wow, how did you find this out? I don't even know if the pink building is in use anymore, or what it was.
 
  • #483
I am unable to edit my post anymore, but yes, instead of Isabel Rizzo I meant Robin Lynn Vitulli (see my post #458), so instead it happening 2 month prior, correct time is 3 years prior to MVJD, in 1985.

Wow, how did you find this out? I don't even know if the pink building is in use anymore, or what it was.

Just lots of google searches, maps and history... that google thingie is really smart ;)
 
  • #484
Hey all - I just received a very touching email from Det. DiMase. He said he has been getting calls and emails from all over the country about our Jane Doe and he appreciates all of our help. Wanted to pass this on to all you fellow sleuthers so keep it coming!

He is a great man. I am so thankful that he is on this case.
 
  • #485
Hey all - I just received a very touching email from Det. DiMase. He said he has been getting calls and emails from all over the country about our Jane Doe and he appreciates all of our help. Wanted to pass this on to all you fellow sleuthers so keep it coming!

He is a great man. I am so thankful that he is on this case.

Praying he gets the right tip to identify her!
 
  • #486
  • #487
The following MPs have been submitted to DiMase for review:

Submitted.JPG
 
  • #488
Det. DiMase has also confirmed that this recon of Carl's is an accurate portrayal of MVJD as she appears in person. Great work as always, Carl, thank you!

MVJD layered hair 2016.jpg
 
  • #489
Detective DiMase is considering the following MPs as our Jane Doe:

Tina Walls https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/28393/
Kathryn Quackenbush https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/1840/0
Cecile Moch https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/30977/
Pamela Furgeson https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/14599/51
Sally Anne Schneider (not listed in NamUs) http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/745dfca.html

And the following MPs have been ruled out:

Rochelle Maria Ihm
Carol Woolsoncroft
Amanda Fravel
Tammy Lynn Leppert
Diane Dye
Tamara Porrin
Catherine Malcolmson
Barbara Cotton
Pollyanne Carter
Kelly McGinniss
Martha Green
Jennifer Douglas
Mary Burnett
Mary Day
 
  • #490
Det. DiMase has also confirmed that this recon of Carl's is an accurate portrayal of MVJD as she appears in person. Great work as always, Carl, thank you!

View attachment 90928

Thank you so much for all you just posted; esp the recon! Nice to finally know!
 
  • #491
The mob angle on this just does not make sense as they used to do the gemini thing and take people out to the fountain Av dump (They did that for a hell of alot of people). If they had the means to dispose of a body, they wouldn't have posed this poor girl out in the street. I'm still convinced this murderer killed before at some point.

Nice recon Carl, the picture gives her some life.
 
  • #492
Apologies for over posting and being a bit slow, what does gemini thing mean (which way, how)?

(Warning, below post is a bit graphic!!!)
I have read up more on NY serial killers operating at that time frame, Rifkin and Shulman, just to consider all possible scenarios in MVJD case, to find out how they worked, their victims, their methods, and also just to see how it was on the streets of NY then. What striked me is that both were targeting call girls (on the streets) and drug users. They both hated call girls, Rifkin even mentioning that those girls are real killers (probably referring to AIDS?) and they are not punished for their killings. That statement made me think of Carl's up thread suggestion of MVJD perp possibly being prostitute hater, we have already just two here.

Another thing what I have noticed, even though both have completely different methods, that they both attacked their victims during the same act! And that really stuck with me and again made me think of possible scenario in MVJD case. They both attacked their victims while girls were performing oral sex on them. Rifkin victims mainly in his car and Shulman's mainly at his home. They striked them over the head with heavy object from above (Shulman - dumbbells, hammer, ax etc) and then strangle them. This could explain why MVJD had no sexual contact detected if it was just oral sex and it would explain the bump on her too.

Bump on her forehead - it was clarified that bump was already on her forehead at the crime scene and not as result of her autopsy. Can anyone say from that photo, if it looks as just normal bump from hit or fall or if it looks like actually fractured bone in skull? We also know that she had bruised eye, so some beating was definitely involved.

Another little fact is that Shulman made his victims strip naked, cook crack for him at his home and then they had "little party". Again, made me think of cocaine in MVJD bloodstream. Rifkin sometimes drove his girls around and paid for their crack hits.

All above would make sense (call girl, drug, oral sex, bump), only thing which does not fit for me in this scenario is MVJD being tied up. Why would you tied up someone who is already willingly in your car or home and then already incapacitated by blow during oral sex or strangled...
Probably overthinking, maybe MVJD was not that willing, but forced where she was and tied up (but no sexual assault though) and that she would have to be tied up somewhere for some time, still alive. But being tied up, then bump on her head not making sense. I think by seriousness of her head injury we could tell, if the bump was minor it was probably to incapacitate her prior to her being tied up, or if it was fracture, it was probably to kill her when already tied up. Gee, sorry, what a horror story... I hope my explanation is making some sense.

Last thing, when Rifkin was describing one of his victim, he mentioned that she was real big fighter, and most difficult and that she even broke most of her fake nails on him. Made me think of MVJD nails. Do we know in what state were her fake nails? Any missing? Any broken or chipped or rather still perfect?

I am not suggesting either of them was involved here, they did hide all their victims with real effort, but reading helped me think about new possibilities in the case; hope you do not mind me sharing.
 
  • #493
  • #494
I am still quite thrilled with discovery of the pic (patting myself on the back :)) as it does give us look of her from different dimension. She does look quite hmm real there. (Lindsay Lohan comes to mind). Her ear is clearly visible (great for comparison) and also nose from side view, which still look small, has no bump on it and not looking as flat as from profile. She appears to have small mole on her right temple parallel with eye and also small mole on her nostril. Both were not visible on her profile pic. Her mouth and cheek look quite natural here, much better then on profile view with weird postmortem circle around her mouth. Her hair appears quite darker but it might be due to pic being black and white. Btw, this is her postmortem photo from side and not the crime scene photo discussed up thread, right?

Due to discovery I had another look at her original pic, one in colour. When you click on it in Namus you can zoom in/out big time on all details. Not recommending it though, it was quite gruesome. Her hair roots around forehead looks quite light, which seems to be natural colour as even small hair just appearing are having the same shade. Of course she could still have frosting done on rest of the hair.

I have seen some small yellow/orange patches on her forehead skin and it is quite visible on her chin where it is appearing as a line. I wonder if it is some chemical used during autopsy to wash or if it could be leftovers of her foundation make up after wash?

I have also noticed strong red lines on both eyes just under the eyebrows. Red lines continue to her nose and cross over her bridge, with some marks on both sides of the nose. The only explanation of this injury have to be that she had eyeglasses on when she was hit! Lines are not that clearly visible without zooming. I was quite surprised to see this but I remembered someone has actually mentioned it already some time ago up thread, but I could not see what that person saw for the world of it at that time. So we might be looking for girl with glasses. Mind you her eyebrows might not be that visible in the pics if she had glasses on.

I am still trying to find any original mention of her in NY news at the time. Weirdly so far 0 found. I understand that murders were daily occurrence there in 87-88 due to drug epidemic, but really, nada? First news mention is by George in Lohud article and that is from 2003 (I think)...

Can we obtain police report of the incident? I saw that in some other cases they were obtained by WS members.
 
  • #495
Her hair appears quite darker but it might be due to pic being black and white. Btw, this is her postmortem photo from side and not the crime scene photo discussed up thread, right?

That is the side view that I had mentioned upthread. That isn't the crime scene photo, which is in color and shows her hair dry and very much lighter. It was a golden blonde color, some people call it "dirty blonde".

That photo and in the frontal color coroner photo show her hair wet, which makes it appear much darker than it actually was.
 
  • #496
Due to discovery I had another look at her original pic, one in colour. When you click on it in Namus you can zoom in/out big time on all details. Not recommending it though, it was quite gruesome. Her hair roots around forehead looks quite light, which seems to be natural colour as even small hair just appearing are having the same shade. Of course she could still have frosting done on rest of the hair.

I believe her natural color was a dark blonde/light brown, and she lightened it with the frosting or hair dye.

I have also noticed strong red lines on both eyes just under the eyebrows. Red lines continue to her nose and cross over her bridge, with some marks on both sides of the nose. The only explanation of this injury have to be that she had eyeglasses on when she was hit! Lines are not that clearly visible without zooming. I was quite surprised to see this but I remembered someone has actually mentioned it already some time ago up thread, but I could not see what that person saw for the world of it at that time. So we might be looking for girl with glasses. Mind you her eyebrows might not be that visible in the pics if she had glasses on.

I zoomed in and I DO see it now! Mind you I am not knowledgeable in post-mortem stuff so I wasn't sure if that might have been caused by broken capillaries from strangling, lividity, etc.

I am still trying to find any original mention of her in NY news at the time. Weirdly so far 0 found. I understand that murders were daily occurrence there in 87-88 due to drug epidemic, but really, nada? First news mention is by George in Lohud article and that is from 2003 (I think)...

I am wondering if MV Public Library would have any articles? They still have the old microfilm machines there and I remember looking up articles from the 1970s. I'll call them and see.

Can we obtain police report of the incident? I saw that in some other cases they were obtained by WS members.

I will ask Det. DiMase about this.
 
  • #497
PD.jpg The original police report.
 
  • #498
Al Ka, I asked Det. DiMase about the possibility of eyeglasses and he said "the out line is from rigormortis. You would not see an outline of glass that long after death"
 
  • #499
Al Ka, I asked Det. DiMase about the possibility of eyeglasses and he said "the out line is from rigormortis. You would not see an outline of glass that long after death"

Thank you Jess for asking and also for police report, really great addition and all is highly appreciated.

I really do not know much about post mortem body functions, but still having a thought... It would be logical that regular glasses imprint might not be visible, it is often not visible even on alive people, but I am thinking more in sense of facial injury. When bodies are found, there are bruises and injuries usually detectable (no idea for how long but probably till decomposition?). Sometimes they can even identify objects which inflicted injury just due to imprints of them on the body. I do not think those marks deteriorate with rigormortis. Those circle lines under her eyebrows towards the nose and across the bridge are just having way too clear shape, almost perfect imprint of the glasses and not irregular broken capillaries around the eyes or her face. She was heavily injured on her forehead, so facial injury could make sense. But again, it is just my medically uneducated thought and not a fact.

Now, come to mind, is her autopsy report available or any parts of it? Any news on her possible isotope testing?
 
  • #500
Thank you Jess for asking and also for police report, really great addition and all is highly appreciated.

I really do not know much about post mortem body functions, but still having a thought... It would be logical that regular glasses imprint might not be visible, it is often not visible even on alive people, but I am thinking more in sense of facial injury. When bodies are found, there are bruises and injuries usually detectable (no idea for how long but probably till decomposition?). Sometimes they can even identify objects which inflicted injury just due to imprints of them on the body. I do not think those marks deteriorate with rigormortis. Those circle lines under her eyebrows towards the nose and across the bridge are just having way too clear shape, almost perfect imprint of the glasses and not irregular broken capillaries around the eyes or her face. She was heavily injured on her forehead, so facial injury could make sense. But again, it is just my medically uneducated thought and not a fact.

Now, come to mind, is her autopsy report available or any parts of it? Any news on her possible isotope testing?

That's what I thought as well, but Det. DiMase maintains it is only rigor mortis, and as a layman I have to defer to his 17+ years of experience! :)

Her autopsy report has never been disclosed neither to me privately nor to the public. I've never asked about it because I didn't want to be pushy, but I will ask at some point. Our meeting (me & Det. DiMase) keeps getting pushed back due to increase in crime in Mt. Vernon which is keeping him plenty busy. I also have not followed up re: isotope, since we did not even speak until the other day. I'll drop him a note now about isotope but I still feel off asking about the autopsy.

On a side note, Det. DiMase's unit won an award yesterday in the city of MV for a huge narcotics buy & bust deal. Yay!
 

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