NY NY - NY, 201 W 24th St, WhtMale 20-40, UP6896, box on sdwlk, Tatts: Libra, Oct 3, butterfly, Feb'96

[DaisyChains]

Glad to see as we scrolled down the thread further that the Oct. 3 Date was figured out. That indeed is Libra! A great start. Thanks for the heads up xmadamx!

 

[DaisyChains]

Is it possible he way gay? Another clue into his identity. The butterfly and script of the FU tattoo are very feminine and whimsical. Also he was into astrology. Are we looking at an gay/feminine male who was a bit sassy and also was into spiritualist (astrology) beliefs?

 

[DaisyChains]

http://www.nampn.org/cases/ribeiro_edivano.html Ribeiro Edivano went missing from CT two days before the body was found and his car was recovered 2 years later in NYC.

though Ribeiro's bday is not listed on nampn as oct. 3 and no mention of Ribeiro having tattoos (but this UIDs tats are so amature and small they could have gone unnoticed when he was alive maybe). I also want to mention that a light skinned African American UID might also be a hispanic with afro american admixture like you find with many folks from caribbean islands and south america. Additionally this UID was burned severely so determining race might have been quite difficult.

edit: was confused about some prior posts showing light skinned african males. Sorry if I am way off on race. I do think this man's circumstances are interesting coincidence with this case though.

 

[Baudelaire]

Is it possible he way gay? Another clue into his identity. The butterfly and script of the FU tattoo are very feminine and whimsical. Also he was into astrology. Are we looking at an gay/feminine male who was a bit sassy and also was into spiritualist (astrology) beliefs?

If it is a butterfly, then a butterfly tattoo means transformation of some sort. Which leads us back to the second post with a missing person who joined a cult. Maybe he joined a cult, and then thought he was going through some sort of transformation.

Or, and I am like a dog with a bone with this because they scream prison tattoos to me, perhaps when he did his first long stretch he was determined not to go back to prison and the butterfly again means transformation or reformation.

Or its not a butterfly but a moth, and it could mean Timothy or Mothman WV. So there are two angles to tackle.

Or you may have a good point daisychain, it could be his sexuality.

Madamx is also sending an email to the authorities hoping we can get some luck with the libra tattoo. If he was in NY prison system we may get a hit.

Or my original assumption that he comes from NY is incorrect. As stated above, he could come from anywhere.

I don't know if census records are available to the general public or if the homeless and ex cons are included in a census, but if we could get our hands on a census record for NY between 90 and 95 we may shake something loose there if we look at the date Oct 3.

I'm thinking there should be around 100 people born in NYState on that day each year. And we should be able to account for most of them by comparing a 1997 cencus to one in 1995. Cross check should reduce the number of people we're interested in significantly.

I'm going to try NY's correctional institutions today. I'll just go through all the available mugshots. See if there are any hits.

 

[Baudelaire]

http://www.nampn.org/cases/ribeiro_edivano.html Ribeiro Edivano went missing from CT two days before the body was found and his car was recovered 2 years later in NYC.

though Ribeiro's bday is not listed on nampn as oct. 3 and no mention of Ribeiro having tattoos (but this UIDs tats are so amature and small they could have gone unnoticed when he was alive maybe). I also want to mention that a light skinned African American UID might also be a hispanic with afro american admixture like you find with many folks from caribbean islands and south america. Additionally this UID was burned severely so determining race might have been quite difficult.

edit: was confused about some prior posts showing light skinned african males. Sorry if I am way off on race. I do think this man's circumstances are interesting coincidence with this case though.

I checked him yesterday. Our guy was a homeless guy. Ribeiro doesn't homeless if he still had a car.

 

[DaisyChains]

You’re right Beau he likely was homeless! I worry he had a life early on where he was cast out for being gay

http://www.thetaskforce.org/static_html/downloads/reports/reports/HomelessYouth_ExecutiveSummary.pdf

if you can search mugshots that far back Beau it would be amazing for not just this case, but many others. Let us know what resource you use to do so and we can apply it to other cases!!!

 

[DaisyChains]

I wouldn’t look too far into the butterfly tattoo meaning. Just rather that most straight masculine males don’t have butterfly tattoos. Shouldn’t focus on meaning (which is subjective) as much as style (which is at least a bit more objective). Regardless of what these tats mean, the subjects and scripts are more feminine than masculine. That tells me all I need to theorize about this Doe (beyond the obvious libra tat - that’s a good clue!)).

 

[Onfortuneswheel]

I don't know if census records are available to the general public or if the homeless and ex cons are included in a census, but if we could get our hands on a census record for NY between 90 and 95 we may shake something loose there if we look at the date Oct 3.

I'm thinking there should be around 100 people born in NYState on that day each year. And we should be able to account for most of them by comparing a 1997 cencus to one in 1995. Cross check should reduce the number of people we're interested in significantly.

The census is only done every 10 years. The most recent year available is 1940. The full 1950 census, with personally identifiable information, will become available in 2022.

 

[Baudelaire]

Damn. I was hoping to get a few names to go on.

A directive was issued in the 80's from the mayor's office to photograph tattoos along with mugshots at the time of arrest and at entry to incarceration. The pics are there, now we must just convince someone with access to that database to go through the pics and maybe come up with a name. I thought they would show tattoos with the mugshots that are available for the public to see, but there aren't any.

The correctional institutions work with their own rules. Some allow you to see some mugshots, others do not. I have no back way into the system. Just what is on their websites.

I emailed the federal prison BOP this morning. I await their reply.

Tomorrow I will try to email all those not federal, not juvenile and not county. Then I think we've covered them all. If there is no hit, its time to go through the other states.

Sidenote: Until 1997 it was illegal to tattoo someone in New York, those tattoo artists who did do tattoos were working illegally. You might be right about the femininity daisychain, a woman could have tattooed our John. That or he was gay. Could be anything. Back to my point. Because it was illegal, the calibre of artistry could genuinely have been this low, and it may not be a prison tattoo at all.

With good fortune, we will soon find out if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Woofnight

 

[MelmothTheLost]

If it is a butterfly, then a butterfly tattoo means transformation of some sort. Which leads us back to the second post with a missing person who joined a cult. Maybe he joined a cult, and then thought he was going through some sort of transformation.

Butterfly is "psyche" in Ancient Greek and referred to the soul, though is obviously the root of psych- and connected to the mind in modern terms.

 

[coffeeandacig]

I'm not completely convinced that this is a jail tattoo. For some reason, it appears to me, much more like a young female practicing her tattooing skills on a boyfriend and not much thought to the subject of the tattoo itself. Libra scales with birthdate, "F You" and a "moth" or butterfly. Of course...JMO.

Going on my "moth" nickname for Timothy theory, I looked for a Timothy in Namus that met the criteria for this John Doe and found one.
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/12982/2/
Timothy Winter, 19 yrs. old
Missing since May 21,1988
Mankato, MN
5' 11" (UID 6')
180 lbs, (UID 145 lbs.)
Brown Hair (UID Light Brown)
Age in 1996 - 27 years old (UID 20-40)
No photo provided.

Very little information, other than DNA samples are being collected in Minnesota's push to solve missing and unidentified persons cases.

Looked to find a birthdate for Timothy Winter, but came up empty, and I'm not a member of any geneaology websites.

 

[Baudelaire]

I'm not 100% sure they are prison tattoos, it just looks like it. It could very well have been his girlfriend.

I'm not a member of any genealogy sites either, but I will look and see if I can get in anywhere they don't want to send me a coffee mug with a coat of arms on it and a t-shirt to match for a ridiculous amount of money.

What puzzles me is that so many people are reported missing without a DOB. How do you report someone you know, but you don't know their DOB?

 

[coffeeandacig]

I'm not 100% sure they are prison tattoos, it just looks like it. It could very well have been his girlfriend.

I'm not a member of any genealogy sites either, but I will look and see if I can get in anywhere they don't want to send me a coffee mug with a coat of arms on it and a t-shirt to match for a ridiculous amount of money.

What puzzles me is that so many people are reported missing without a DOB. How do you report someone you know, but you don't know their DOB?

I don't have an answer to your question, other than perhaps it's a friend or acquaintance who reports a missing person without a birthdate.

As for Timothy Winter...He's a real longshot, regardless.

 

[carbuff]

I'm not 100% sure they are prison tattoos, it just looks like it. It could very well have been his girlfriend.

I'm not a member of any genealogy sites either, but I will look and see if I can get in anywhere they don't want to send me a coffee mug with a coat of arms on it and a t-shirt to match for a ridiculous amount of money.

What puzzles me is that so many people are reported missing without a DOB. How do you report someone you know, but you don't know their DOB?

Many sites don't publish the date of birth because it makes it too easy to use the missing person's information for identity theft. It's there but the public can't see it.

 

[Onfortuneswheel]

My guess is that the '* You' tattoo is not amateur. I wouldn't expect such steady, clean lines from an amateur. Possibly a beginner tattoo artist but not amateur. The lines are somewhat faint but not blurred - some beginner artists don't realize how far the needles need to penetrate skin to create clean lines - blurriness is an indicator of age.

 

[DaisyChains]

I love using nampn to search missing persons - they include birthdates!

 

[Baudelaire]

Get any hits daisychain?

 

[madamx]

wow!! there has been so much going on this thread since I last was here..so happy to see this hopefully something will hit!..Thanks guys for all the teamwork here.

Well I had contacted Mike Perfetto https://www.instagram.com/designs_by_michael_angelo/ who has been tattooing in Brooklyn since 1976 and knows a lot of the nyc old school artists. I had sent him the photos of this UIDs tattoos along with the woman from the Bronx...for those who have not heard of her I am posting her post https://www.websleuths.com/forums/s...-multiple-tattoos-Mar-90&highlight=bronx+1990. Anyway sadly I really did not get very far with him

His exact reply to me was : I’m sorry but I didn’t do any of these tattoos, and to be honest it doesn’t look like the work of any of my friends.

I also came across a photographer who had been photographing tattoos people and artists in here in nyc since 1986.. I think I will shoot him an email also... I even asked some friends of mine that lived around there at that time and again nothing..

I think I will also reach out to this guy Darren who used to have a shop on west 23rd years ago before it was legal..A friend of mine used to get work done from him and reminded me.

I am trying to work that angle and maybe someone remembers!

 

[madamx]

I love using nampn to search missing persons - they include birthdates!

oh please let us know if you find anything!!

 

[madamx]

Damn. I was hoping to get a few names to go on.

A directive was issued in the 80's from the mayor's office to photograph tattoos along with mugshots at the time of arrest and at entry to incarceration. The pics are there, now we must just convince someone with access to that database to go through the pics and maybe come up with a name. I thought they would show tattoos with the mugshots that are available for the public to see, but there aren't any.

The correctional institutions work with their own rules. Some allow you to see some mugshots, others do not. I have no back way into the system. Just what is on their websites.

I emailed the federal prison BOP this morning. I await their reply.

Tomorrow I will try to email all those not federal, not juvenile and not county. Then I think we've covered them all. If there is no hit, its time to go through the other states.

Sidenote: Until 1997 it was illegal to tattoo someone in New York, those tattoo artists who did do tattoos were working illegally. You might be right about the femininity daisychain, a woman could have tattooed our John. That or he was gay. Could be anything. Back to my point. Because it was illegal, the calibre of artistry could genuinely have been this low, and it may not be a prison tattoo at all.

With good fortune, we will soon find out if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Woofnight

Baudelaire you have done so much thanks.. its so frustrating with all of that research and still nothing argh!