NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

[Elley Mae]

Kinda OT

I've been a long time smoker, in all these yrs. I've never ever heard of selling loosey's. People have bummed a smoke, as have I. Which reminds me many yrs ago before my MOMMY passed away, yrs. before that my Aunt got her involved in buying cartons out of state. She did for a few yr. She'd ordered mine too even tho I told her not to I'd buy my own. When she passed she didn't have a will, and somehow the gov. found out she was buying cig. out of state and wanted to tax her estate. I was stunned the gov. even knew how to check. But the estate att. earned his money and the gov. didn't end up taxing her estate.

But still What kind of smoker buys 1 at a time? I don't get it.

I've had to go to way off brand, but I would never buy a single smoke from anyone I didn't know or buy a smoke from someone I did know . WHAT THE HECK???

I agree. I smoked for years, stopped almost 5 years ago, I do remember where I worked years ago, (30 years) at work there were people that would open the pack at the bottom to get there's from so if someone asked for one they would say that they had not opened the pack yet. When at the local bar the barmaids would keep a pack and sell them to people that came in for a few beers/drink and buy one while they were at the bar. I had a friend that would smoke at the bar on weekends and give me the rest on monday morning. In the state/city of NY smokes are like 12-15 dollars a pack. I can imagine the cost would be hard on lots of folks in the city, but being able to buy a few a day is lots cheaper then 15.00 a day. I can not imagine paying 15.00 much less buying them single.

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/researc...te-smuggling-cuts-states-perpack-tax-revenues

In 2010, states with high tobacco taxes lost about $5 billion in revenue because of cigarette smuggling, according to the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives. Experts say the number is climbing.

The federal Jenkins Act mandates that tobacco sellers identify out-of-state customers and report their purchases to each buyer’s state tobacco tax administrator.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/19/dc-smokes-out-tax-scofflaws/?page=all

 

[Irisha]

A pack of cigarettes runs $13-$14 in New York, so folks apparently by "loosies".

New York State also sued online cigarette buyers, and forced them to pay tax (buying cartons online can be MUCH cheaper even with shipping, websites based in other countries offer major brands for MUCH less, but if they kept records New York would sue the buyers for unpaid tax).

Where is the mob when you need them?

We are getting off topic, but the price of smokes in NY is IMO almost stealing from smokers to get them to quit.

Back on topic: proceed

IMO:Anyone who has had 30/31 arrests has no respect for any law, and who was these judges?

 

[rosemadderlake]

True story. My spouse & I made a wrong turn leaving a Chicago convention hall & ended up in Cabrini Green. Two black police officers saw us & knew we didn't belong there. They stopped us & we explained what happened. They said we were in a dangerous neighborhood & they escorted us until we were safely on the interstate. I have been a fan of profiling ever since.

A couple of years ago I was picking up a friend at the Trenton, NJ train station at night and the usual route was detoured. Trenton, NJ’s Capitol town is really deserted in areas, more so at night with plenty of urban gang and violence problems. I, with my terrible sense of direction (and no GPS), missed the detour signs ended up in a really bombed out neighborhood. A young black woman came up to my car and said, ‘I can tell you are lost’, and gave me directions out of there.

Your story made me remember mine and how kindness and awareness is a great teacher.

It also made me think of how difficult these issues, and times must be on our black law enforcement officials--the ones who are out there keeping the peace in NYC.

 

[rosemadderlake]

When I look at EG in the video, I see a bombastic character that perhaps could have been negotiated with in the first place, find out his side of the story, let him calm down, and then arrest him. I don’t know, I just remember a couple of characters in my home town who must have been arrested 100 times a year, and the cops knew them well. Having witnessed a couple of encounters, I remember the cops were patient. --The video of the throw down was so sad and while I am sure LE had no intention of killing the man, it seemed to happen so fast, I am so shocked at the force they used on this unarmed man.

 

[XXXXXXXX]

Selling Loose Cigarettes is Highly Profitable. It is comparable to pirating music or bootlegging booze.

The cigarette excise tax in New York is $4.35 per pack of 20 cigarettes. That amounts to a $43.50 tax for a single carton of cigs that contains ten packs.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/state-cigarette-tax-rates-2014

EG was illegally selling loose cigs. It is my understanding that EG's arrest record has been sealed. That should tell us something. The shopkeepers were constantly running him off because they pay their taxes while he did not; hence, EG could sell cigs cheaper than the stores. He probably threatened the shopkeepers that this was "his corner". IMO, EG continued with his illegal practice because it was highly profitable.

I've viewed the video copious times, esp. when it was first posted. EG did not have 5 cops on him. There were two on him; three near him. LEO are trained to take down an individual from behind if the perp is of a larger size. This was done by the PO using a head lock, JMO, and the assistance of another officer.

EG spoke: "I can't breathe" eight times. 8 times. A person who cannot breathe cannot speak 3 words eight different times. Even when laying on the ground, EG moved his arms to prevent being handcuffed. Therefore, while down on the sidewalk, EG continued to resist arrest.

To be clear, I am not supporting the PO's actions one way or the other. Medics were called to care and treat the perp. LEO do not carry oxygen with them.

Also, I am wary of folks claiming to be one of the GJ, esp. one stating the jurors were using their cellphones for I feel a judge would never allow such behavior.

I am eagerly anticipating the release of any and all info the DA chooses to allow us.

OMHO

I DO have COPD (and stupidly keep smoking). I take full responsibility for my own ignorant decision. But I can tell you that even when in the throes of a an asthma attack, I CAN still speak for a couple of minutes. I can gasp out my words as Eric Garner was doing. Luckily, I've never had someone put me in any kind of hold around my neck to further obstruct my already compromised breathing.

Luckily, I've never had a gang sitting on my back and pushing my face into the ground while in the throes of an asthma attack. I've been able to control my compromised breathing by either standing up (when I'm awake), or by sitting bolt upright in my bed when I'm awakened from sleep.

What's inexcusable in this case is both LEOs AND Emts just standing around staring at someone who was clearly unresponsive and not doing a damned thing except ask each other "how many of us is it going to take to get this guy on a stretcher"?

And THAT was 7 minutes after he had become unresponsive.

 

[Archangel7]

Okay guys, I have heart and lung problems; there are certain positions I cannot lay down in. A person of his size probably could not survive very long in some positions, his organs would have been badly compressed/compromised his breathing and blood flow. I'm relatively slender, and I know my organs are being badly pressured in certain positions, so I avoid them. Then, consider his blood pressure. He was a walking time bomb physically, especially indulging in any type of illegal activity, which he must have known could precipitate a take down.

In my opinion, he was complicit in his own demise, especially if he had any awareness of his physical vulnerability - which I'm sure he must have.

Just a general comment for the sake of sharing info. The arrest and work isn't over when custody takes place, there's more to it that the cuffing. The Academy(thousands of them) teach take downs, cuffing, even on large people and one armed people. Part of that instruction is to get a cuffed person to a seated position or and eventually into a transport vehicle and or call EMT if needed.

Cadets are also instructed on fundamental first aid.

There appears to be some fumbling of the assessment of Garner's condition and the expedited hand off to EMT.

In a way, there should be little difference visually between an officer's action on an arrest like this and a vehicular accident with an injured occupant, until EMT arrives(the better trained medically)

Another way to think about it is care and control of the seized(taken into custody)person. Literally the STATE has seized a citizen. He is no longer "absolutely" free in the legal sense within some legal granted parameters.

I see no criminality(no contravention of law or intent) in the arrest, based on the video and existing laws nor the existing laws of force. I don't believe there was intent to kill or let Garner die, however intent or not isn't necessarily the pivot point of culpability.
It would seem reasonable that one could have no ill intent but still be negligible especially if you have Care and Control.
Apparently the GJ saw no criminal element to the consideration of negligence(no specific law contravened), however that might not be the case in a Civil proceeding.

Hard to decipher without the facts.

 

[cady]

I do not know for sure, but my impression is that the GJ in NY was not asked to consider lesser crimes than criminal negligence. So, they were looking for some kind of "intent" and did not see it. But there are lesser crimes which could have been considered, Reckless Endangerment, for one. JMO

 

[XXXXXXXX]

And having had my posts deleted for being "an aggressive right winger".

In fact, I'm neither an ultra conservative left winger or an ultra conservative right winger. I've always stated I read both left wing and right wing media and somewhere in between, the REAL truth, and the REAL story is found.

In THIS case, even the ultra conservative FOX news are asking questions about WHY cops and EMTs just stood around for 7 minutes staring when Garner was clearly no longer a threat and was completely unresponsive.

Even former president G.W. Bush weighed in on this situation questioning WHY nothing was done for Eric Garner after he was clearly unresponsive, no longer able to move, no longer able to respond at all to the superficial questions posed to him by the EMTs.

The one woman EMT who first approached him did NOTHING but put her fingertips on his neck and then keep REPEATEDLY asking him to talk. Clearly, he was in no condition to talk. Yet she and the rest of the EMTs and the cops just stood there staring for 7 minutes.

Of course we can see by the video that Garner initially resisted arrest. But unlike MB, he didn't physically threaten any of the LEOs. He was mule-headed and belligerent, but posed no physical threat to them.

Once they had him down and he became unresponsive, at least a TOKEN effort should have been made to revive him and get him on a stretcher and on his way to a hospital WAY sooner than 7 minutes after he was rendered unconscious.

JMO.

 

[cady]

And having had my posts deleted for being "an aggressive right winger".

In fact, I'm neither an ultra conservative left winger or an ultra conservative right winger. I've always stated I read both left wing and right wing media and somewhere in between, the REAL truth, and the REAL story is found.

In THIS case, even the ultra conservative FOX news are asking questions about WHY cops and EMTs just stood around for 7 minutes staring when Garner was clearly no longer a threat and was completely unresponsive.

Even former president G.W. Bush weighed in on this situation questioning WHY nothing was done for Eric Garner after he was clearly unresponsive, no longer able to move, no longer able to respond at all to the superficial questions posed to him by the EMTs.

The one woman EMT who first approached him did NOTHING but put her fingertips on his neck and then keep REPEATEDLY asking him to talk. Clearly, he was in no condition to talk. Yet she and the rest of the EMTs and the cops just stood there staring for 7 minutes.

Of course we can see by the video that Garner initially resisted arrest. But unlike MB, he didn't physically threaten any of the LEOs. He was mule-headed and belligerent, but posed no physical threat to them.

Once they had him down and he became unresponsive, at least a TOKEN effort should have been made to revive him and get him on a stretcher and on his way to a hospital WAY sooner than 7 minutes after he was rendered unconscious.

JMO.

THANKS That was refreshing. I am usually accused of the opposite of you, but in fact, do a lot of surfing on TV as well as the internet. The real thing IS somewhere in between. And it's not so easy to discover.! JMO

 

[XXXXXXXX]

THANKS That was refreshing. I am usually accused of the opposite of you, but in fact, do a lot of surfing on TV as well as the internet. The real thing IS somewhere in between. And it's not so easy to discover.! JMO

Exactly, Cady! Point in case (and not really off topic). Just yesterday Rolling Stone magazine posted an "apology" for reporting the UVA rape case. They finally admitted that they took the "Jackie" person at her word when she initially contacted them. Just yesterday they ADMITTED openly that they NEVER interviewed or even ATTEMPTED to interview the 9 frat brothers she accused of rape.

Just yesterday, Rolling Stone put up an apology on their website saying something like: Sorry. It seems our trust in her story was misplaced. In the meantime, they could be held up to a civil suit for libel. They've yet to post a retraction. Just an "apology".

Chit like that just proves what I've said all along. Real journalism is a thing of the past. Having graduated college on a journalism scholarship, I'm well aware of the bias that exists on BOTH sides of the so called MSM reporting spectrum.

Again, I completely agree with the GJ decision in the MB case. He threatened physical violence toward Wilson from the evidence presented by eye witnesses, both white and black. The Garner case?

Yes, he was belligerent and resisted arrest. Yes, he had 31 other arrests under his belt for repeatedly selling untaxed loosies. But even when he was belligerent, he never reached toward any officer's gun. He hadn't just been videotaped body slamming a store owner and robbing a store.

All of us need to pick our battles but a non-violent person who posed no physical threat to any LEO should have at least got first-aid before 7 minutes had passed while they just stood around staring at his prone body.

.

 

[cady]

Is there a thread for the "Jackie" issue? I am bothered by that too. Agree about the shabby journalism. JMO

 

[Elley Mae]

I do not know for sure, but my impression is that the GJ in NY was not asked to consider lesser crimes than criminal negligence. So, they were looking for some kind of "intent" and did not see it. But there are lesser crimes which could have been considered, Reckless Endangerment, for one. JMO

The grand jury votes on a menu of charges for each potential defendant. The list of charges is decided solely by the D.A. The list of possible defendants is also decided solely by prosecutors.

In this case, the possible charges have not been announced but prosecutors who do this work tell us the range is going to include: second-degree manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, felony assault, reckless endangerment. Prosecutors could ask for first-degree manslaughter, but doubtful they could get it.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/19/dc-smokes-out-tax-scofflaws/?page=all

 

[cady]

The grand jury votes on a menu of charges for each potential defendant. The list of charges is decided solely by the D.A. The list of possible defendants is also decided solely by prosecutors.

In this case, the possible charges have not been announced but prosecutors who do this work tell us the range is going to include: second-degree manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, felony assault, reckless endangerment. Prosecutors could ask for first-degree manslaughter, but doubtful they could get it.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/19/dc-smokes-out-tax-scofflaws/?page=all

That was the range---pre GJ. I don't know what charges they actually considered. Does anyone know if that info has been published? TY JMO

 

[Zuri]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/12/03/us/2014-12-03-garner-video.html?_r=0

I thought about SG takedown for awhile and have the following thoughts.

SG was reported to have just broken up a fight across the street. He is diaphoretic when the D D officer approaches him. He is clearly agitated and throwing his arms around. Chances are his heart rate is up and he has probably already started to have some respiratory issues, although his speech is fine. The guy in the green shirt takes him down with some kind of chokehold, not what I would call a technical chokehold.

From the angles I watched, the chokehold was not that long. The problem was holding his head down on the pavement IMO, not the chokehold. Another officer places his hand on the green shirted guy's back as if to say back off a bit. Don't know.

So from the initial takedown, SG may have already been compromised prior and the takedown added insult to injury. Perfect Storm. I think the cops noted something was wrong before the EMTs showed up. The EMTs did not wait all that long to ship him. I was puzzled as to why they did not take vital signs or start CPR at the scene. Maybe they figured they were close to the hospital?

 

[Elley Mae]

Prosecutors left off the table a criminal charge that would have allowed a Staten Island grand jury to indict the cop who killed Eric Garner — even if the panel believed the officer didn’t intend to choke him to death, WNBC reported Friday.

It’s called reckless endangerment and all a majority on the grand jury would have needed to do is agree that Officer Daniel Pantaleo’s actions — clearly visible on a horrific cell phone video obtained by The Daily News — figured in Garner’s death.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...l-bratton-defends-de-blasio-article-1.2034559

 

[cady]

The reason for no CPR that was bandied about is that it was said that he was still breathing. The presumption was that if he could say that he couldn't breathe, he must have been breathing. Go figure... JMO

 

[XXXXXXXX]

From the angles I watched, the chokehold was not that long. The problem was holding his head down on the pavement IMO, not the chokehold. Another officer places his hand on the green shirted guy's back as if to say back off a bit. Don't know.

When I saw the full and unedited video, I got the exact opposite impression than you. It seemed to me that the officer putting his hand on Pantaleo's back seemed to be urging him on. Certainly, the other cops present were piled on top of Garner even after he had stopped moving.

Your interpreting the same video differently than what I interpreted it, is why I feel it's so important to exchange opinions. I really enjoy your posts and the insights you offer.

 

[Zuri]

When I saw the full and unedited video, I got the exact opposite impression than you. It seemed to me that the officer putting his hand on Pantaleo's back seemed to be urging him on. Certainly, the other cops present were piled on top of Garner even after he had stopped moving.

Your interpreting the same video differently than what I interpreted it, is why I feel it's so important to exchange opinions. I really enjoy your posts and the insights you offer.

Isn't it funny how we can all look at the same thing and see something different! I like it too. Maybe he was. Thanks for this!

 

[SCHMAE]

I think there is the biggest problem, How long it too EMT's to get into action.. That is something entirely different.

I agree. I feel if EMT's had begun to work on the patient quickly ( like i assume they would do in any OTHER circumstance ) that he would be alive today. That part makes no sense to me.

 

[cady]

Isn't it funny how we can all look at the same thing and see something different! I like it too. Maybe he was. Thanks for this!

Which is why in general, eyewitnesses are not liars. We all perceive the same events differently. Somewhere in there is maybe factual. My sisters and I all have different versions of family events. Nobody is lying. LOL JMO