NY - Officer Daniel Pantaleo used deadly chokehold on Eric Garner, Staten Island, July 2014

[Gardenlady]

<modsnip>
Apparently Mr. Garner was committing a crime when LE was called...unless the news reports are wrong.

<modsnip>

When the cops arrived he was not engaged in a crime. If all it takes is a phone call from someone telling cops you're committing a crime, then heck, let's do away with arrests, arraignments, trials. <modsnip>


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gardenlady]

First, I've read every book on the Leopold-Loeb case. Second, Leopold-Loeb happened 90 years ago. Third, books and TV specials still periodically appear on the subject.

Why are there many cases of totally innocent black people murdered without much attention from the media or politicians?

By the way, one of the perpetrators of the Christian-Newsom murders comes up for parole this coming Wednesday. Will the national media be there?

Also meant to say - there's plenty of recent thrill kill cases you could have picked, L&L just happened to be the most famous case I could think of.

My point was to ask you again to clarify why you singled out the case you did as of it has some kind of relevance to Mr Garner's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Zuri]

I realized that many of my posts may have given the impression that IMO SG should not have been arrested. Not so. Just to be clear, what SG did was wrong and it was against the law. The shopkeepers had every right to call LE and complain, as SG was interfering with their livelihood.

Where I had a problem was with the aftermath of the arrest. Perfect Storm. I actually had more of a problem with the EMTs than I did with LE, although all sides could have done better and SG death might have been preventable.

I don't think all this protesting mess is warranted. I don't think children should be terrified to perform at a Christmas concert because of a menacing mob mentality. I think the awareness has been raised and hopefully we can do better as a country. Together. JMV

 

[Irish_Eyes]

We are having protests here in CLE today. The Garner ruling and the DOJ report coming out on the same day has really ignited something here. Channel 5 put out something earlier saying CPD was asking businesses downtown to let workers go home early because of expected protests. It is live streaming on Channel 5, so far it didn't seem like a huge crowd, unless they are just showing a small part of it. I saw a group of about 50 people with bullhorns and SEIU signs chanting "CPD, how many kids have you killed today?" over and over.

 

[al66pine]

Criminal maybe, but not one engaged in any crime at the time. And maybe people protest because even criminals have rights and don't deserve to be choked and smothered to death by those empowered with enforcing the law.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bbm

Re ^bbm^ Are you saying MrG was not engaged in any crime at the time? Or referring to a vid re protestors at another time & place?

If ref'ing to MrG, are you saying
1---he was not engaged in any crime at the time?
or
2---you saw a vid (whichever one) not showing that MrG engaged in any crime during the vid clip.

A world of diff between the two stmts, imo.
1---It did not happen
or
2---I did not see it happen on the vid I saw, which may have bn edited -by MSM, SocMedia, youtube poster, etc to delete relevant actions.

Thx in adv.

 

[leah]

We are having protests here in CLE today. The Garner ruling and the DOJ report coming out on the same day has really ignited something here. Channel 5 put out something earlier saying CPD was asking businesses downtown to let workers go home early because of expected protests. It is live streaming on Channel 5, so far it didn't seem like a huge crowd, unless they are just showing a small part of it. I saw a group of about 50 people with bullhorns and SEIU signs chanting "CPD, how many kids have you killed today?" over and over.

The killing of the black child, and other things I have read, I don't live there so I don't know. But I sure hope it doesn't get out of hand.

 

[katydid23]

katydid23, I certainly can understand their concern, I know there is no way that I could do that job, ever. Why should they then be accused of something they didn't do? Speaking about the EG case, the lack of compassion and care about a man dying on the sidewalk is what has gotten to me. It looked like excess force to me, but I'm no expert on whether the cops were going by their training or not. But I do understand when people have become hardened, and just see a criminal dying or dead on the ground, as he should have not been doing this or that, or why didn't he do this or that. He had family that loves him, and watching him in that video dying really got to me, and I hope I never become that way, where things like this don't matter.

Yes. They feel that was a 'bad' takedown. And they agree that the public should be upset. But it needs to be seen in context. Look at the start of the video, which is usually edited out. It shows a very angry Garner saying angrily, GO AWAY, LEAVE ME BE, ...etc etc... and insisting he is not going to be arrested. THAT is resisting arrest. he had been arrested for the same offense 9 times previously. So there was a reason that he was taken doen physically.

One cop told me that every says ' I cant breathe' when they are being held down, so unfortunately, many cops tend to ignore that complaint. And it is very sad.

I don't think the cops thought he was dying at the time. And that was negligence on their part for sure.

 

[Elley Mae]

Also meant to say - there's plenty of recent thrill kill cases you could have picked, L&L just happened to be the most famous case I could think of.

My point was to ask you again to clarify why you singled out the case you did as of it has some kind of relevance to Mr Garner's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

L&L was not a thrill kill, it was a perfect crime they were trying to achieve.

The duo was motivated to murder Franks by their desire to commit a perfect crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_Loeb

 

[bwt42]

Not sure I understand intent of post and don't want to ASSume. ^Serious or Sarc?^

Seriously, I think EG died because of his poor physical condition. If he was in good shape, I believe he would still be selling cigs today. If he tried to run, he could have had a heart attack. If he tried to attack the officers he could have had a heart attack. If he didn't want to be arrested , what was LE to do? Many posters have said "things have got to change". I just threw out one idea. If someone who "wants things to change" has a better idea how to subdue a non compliant subject who may have health issues, I'm willing to listen. I know do not use choke hold is the obvious, but I think he would have died anyway.

 

[leah]

I realized that many of my posts may have given the impression that IMO SG should not have been arrested. Not so. Just to be clear, what SG did was wrong and it was against the law. The shopkeepers had every right to call LE and complain, as SG was interfering with their livelihood.

Where I had a problem was with the aftermath of the arrest. Perfect Storm. I actually had more of a problem with the EMTs than I did with LE, although all sides could have done better and SG death might have been preventable.

I don't think all this protesting mess is warranted. I don't think children should be terrified to perform at a Christmas concert because of a menacing mob mentality. I think the awareness has been raised and hopefully we can do better as a country. Together. JMV

I hear what you are saying, and understand all of that, the aftermath was terrible and disturbing. I don't think anybody should be terrorized or threatened. I just hope the protests don't get violent, and with that many people out there doing so, it just takes one or two to cause trouble, and gang mentality sets in. But so far in NYC it has been peaceful.

 

[al66pine]

Not sure where you got MB from that, this thread is about Mr Garner.
When the cops arrived he was not engaged in a crime. If all it takes is a phone call from someone telling cops you're committing a crime, then heck, let's do away with arrests, arraignments, trials. We can just mete out justice via phone call denunciations from random citizens.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

. bbm

Sorry I've not read/watched a lot of MSM coverage on this yet, but
do we know when LE arrived, Mr G was not engaged in a crime?
Or do some ppl think/believe that?

Personally I was not standing down the block or across the st. from Mr G for an hour or so preceding 3 or 7 min vids showing take down,
so I am not able to conclude MrG was not engaged in crime, when LE arrived.

Is it poss LEO was monitoring from down the block or across st, or on store CCTV perhaps w audio? Maybe for 10min, 1 hr or 4 hrs. IDK.

Were you there pre-arrest? Have you seen vid of MrG for 10 min, 1 hr, or 4 hrs preceding arrest?

Is it poss MrG's crim actions were not recorded? Or recorded, then edited out?
Not saying he necessarily committed any that day, but cannot conclude he did not, based on my seeing a few min of vid.
JM2cts.

 

[Gardenlady]

L&L was not a thrill kill, it was a perfect crime they were trying to achieve.

The duo was motivated to murder Franks by their desire to commit a perfect crime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_Loeb

<modsnip> I disagree, and the question still remains unanswered: why pick out the Newsom case out of all other possible "thrill kill" examples?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gardenlady]

. bbm

Sorry I've not read/watched a lot of MSM coverage on this yet, but
do we know when LE arrived, Mr G was not engaged in a crime?
Or do some ppl think/believe that?

Personally I was not standing down the block or across the st. from Mr G for an hour or so preceding 3 or 7 min vids showing take down,
so I am not able to conclude MrG was not engaged in crime, when LE arrived.

Is it poss LEO was monitoring from down the block or across st, or on store CCTV perhaps w audio? Maybe for 10min, 1 hr or 4 hrs. IDK.

Were you there pre-arrest? Have you seen vid of MrG for 10 min, 1 hr, or 4 hrs preceding arrest?

Is it poss MrG's crim actions were not recorded? Or recorded, then edited out?
Not saying he necessarily committed any that day, but cannot conclude he did not, based on my seeing a few min of vid.
JM2cts.

I suppose technically you're correct - we can't know if Mr Garner was actively, allegedly engaged in the horrifying crime of selling loose cigarettes when approached by police. I'm making an educated guess that he was probably wise enough to NOT be engaged in such activity in plain sight of cops.

Regardless, I was addressing the post which said he was engaged in a crime per the person who called the cops. My point remains that a call to the cops does not equal a guilty verdict. Nevermind one deserving the death penalty. We don't mete out justice based on a phone call to the cops.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bwt42]

LOL Everyone who considers themselves a law abiding citizen, but has sold something for profit and not reported it as taxable income, please raise both hands and surrender. JK JMO

My hands are down. Everything I've sold has been at a loss.

 

[katydid23]

. bbm

Sorry I've not read/watched a lot of MSM coverage on this yet, but
do we know when LE arrived, Mr G was not engaged in a crime?
Or do some ppl think/believe that?

Personally I was not standing down the block or across the st. from Mr G for an hour or so preceding 3 or 7 min vids showing take down,
so I am not able to conclude MrG was not engaged in crime, when LE arrived.

Is it poss LEO was monitoring from down the block or across st, or on store CCTV perhaps w audio? Maybe for 10min, 1 hr or 4 hrs. IDK.

Were you there pre-arrest? Have you seen vid of MrG for 10 min, 1 hr, or 4 hrs preceding arrest?

Is it poss MrG's crim actions were not recorded? Or recorded, then edited out?
Not saying he necessarily committed any that day, but cannot conclude he did not, based on my seeing a few min of vid.
JM2cts.

I remember seeing a report on tv weeks ago, when this first happened, about the case. And from that report it seemed that it was a task force that was sent out to arrest the many 'loosie' sellers on the street. So I think they watched him selling cigs before the takedown. There were about 5 or 6 cops there. I doubt there would be that many otherwise. jmo

 

[Gardenlady]

Seriously, I think EG died because of his poor physical condition. If he was in good shape, I believe he would still be selling cigs today. If he tried to run, he could have had a heart attack. If he tried to attack the officers he could have had a heart attack. If he didn't want to be arrested , what was LE to do? Many posters have said "things have got to change". I just threw out one idea. If someone who "wants things to change" has a better idea how to subdue a non compliant subject who may have health issues, I'm willing to listen. I know do not use choke hold is the obvious, but I think he would have died anyway.

I've seen many people say that the cop was rightfully not indicted because the death was more caused by Mr Garner's health. I would say that not only does that ignore the autopsy comments, but would love to hear from any lawyers about how this ties in with the so-called eggshell skull doctrine, which basically means that you take your victim as you find him. Meaning it doesn't matter that you didn't know your victim had a skull as weak as an egg shell - that's the consequences you get when you made that person your victim. To me it seems these cops are getting a free pass from some that wouldn't be given to a run of the mill, non-LEO killer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[William N]

Criminal maybe, but not one engaged in any crime at the time. And maybe people protest because even criminals have rights and don't deserve to be choked and smothered to death by those empowered with enforcing the law.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IMO this is an abusive law, but just who do you think made the law? The liberal New York politicians, urged on by anti-smoking crusaders. BTW, the politicians also want the tax revenue.

There's an old saying you shouldn't have a law on the books you aren't willing to kill to enforce.

 

[Nana]

EXACTLY. And that is what I heard first hand from a room full of first responders last night. They are very angry at what they see going on. They feel that many are being very ungrateful for the dangerous things they do on a daily basis. They get calls from people to come help them get their OWN KIDS/GRANDKIDS out of their homes because they are too afraid of them. They get calls about Domestic Violence and armed robberies in the community. And they go and put their own lives at risk, no questions asked.

But they are now feeling like standing down a bit. They do not feel comfortable at this time with the way the public is grandstanding. They feel that the thugs are feeling emboldened and empowered. And it puts the first responders at a great disadvantage.

I respect them!!!
Please thank them for me, for all they do!
God Bless Them!!

 

[katydid23]

I suppose technically you're correct - we can't know if Mr Garner was actively, allegedly engaged in the horrifying crime of selling loose cigarettes when approached by police. I'm making an educated guess that he was probably wise enough to NOT be engaged in such activity in plain sight of cops.

Regardless, I was addressing the post which said he was engaged in a crime per the person who called the cops. My point remains that a call to the cops does not equal a guilty verdict. Nevermind one deserving the death penalty. We don't mete out justice based on a phone call to the cops.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mr Garner had been arrested NINE TIMES for selling loosies. So he was not that good at hiding his antics. There are probably surveillance cams around the stores as well. I am sure they had good reason to make the arrest. There were 5 cops for a reason, imo.

As foe the 'crime', I agree it seems petty. But when reading about it I understand it a bit better. NYC has about 6 bucks worh of taxes on a pack of cigs. They do so for health and business reasons. When people go out of the area to buy them and then come and sell them, cheaply, it is like STEALING from the tax base. And it is unfair to the store owners, who pay rent, expenses, employees and taxes, only to see peeps out front underselling them ILLEGALLY> What if you saw people every day doing something illegal, that took away from you and your familys business? You might see it as a bigger crime in that case.

 

[popsicle]

After Eric Garner case, 2 N.Y. legislators want to make grand jury evidence public
In a statement published on her Facebook page Friday afternoon, State Sen. Diane Savino said the bill would require New York prosecutors to publicize transcripts of witness testimony and other evidence presented to a grand jury without a judge's consent.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-ny-bill-grand-jury-public-20141205-story.html