GUILTY NY - Phoenix & Luna Rodriguez, 1, twins, die in hot car, Bronx, 26 July 2019 *No jail*

[Catmommy]

Seems to me, and me alone, that if you can blank out having two babies in the car all day and still back there when you start for home ,already deceased and no doubt odiferous, any kind of alarm or reminder could be "blanked out" as well, if blanking out is what you do.

 

[gitana1]

Seems to me, and me alone, that if you can blank out having two babies in the car all day and still back there when you start for home ,already deceased and no doubt odiferous, any kind of alarm or reminder could be "blanked out" as well, if blanking out is what you do.

I don't know that it's "no doubt" that it stank like a dead body in that car. He could've rolled the windows down the moment he got in or even before he got in. It might not have smelled the way you assume it should.

I'm not sure.

There's more information in this article:

He is a member of the National Guard and deploys for several weeks at a time and their schedule changes a lot.

The twins had ear infections and no one had, as a result, been sleeping a lot. So by Friday, when this happened, everyone was on autopilot.

These hot car forgotten baby cases tend to happen at the end of the week more.

A change in routine is usually at play in these cases. In the case of Ray Ray Cavaliero, a traffic redirect also occurred as it did in this case.

That morning, the dad was to drive from their house in New City to "a nearby daycare" near their home to drop off their 4 year old. He did that. The next stop was the babies'daycare.

That was in Yonkers near where his wife worked. That was about 37 minutes on a normal morning.

After that he would go to his job in the Bronx, another 15 minutes or so.

However that morning in Yonkers, "there was construction. Juan Rodriguez would have to go one highway exit back from where he usually got off and backtrack."

It looks like instead of getting off at that unusual exit he just kept going to his work.

What happened the day Phoenix and Luna Rodriguez were left in their dad's hot car and died?

Here is what his usual route would have looked like, but without the added time for traffic: Google Maps

 

[annemc2]

I always wondered how parents "forgot" that their kids were in the car. I just didn't understand how that could possibly happen. Until one day when it happened to me - with my dog.

My husband always takes the kids to school on Mondays. This particular Monday he had another obligation so I took them. The dog always went with us because she loves to ride in the car. I spent several minutes on the journey saying stuff like "This is so weird! It feels like a Tuesday because I'm driving you guys to school!" The dog is usually always up in my face and moves herself to the front seat after drop off. For some reason, this time she stayed in the back seat and was very, very quiet.

I got home and decided to go back to bed since I was really sleepy. I took a nap for a couple of hours then piddled around the house. It took awhile to notice that my shadow (who follows me everywhere - upstairs, downstairs, to the bathroom) wasn't around. Huh. Weird. So I started looking for her, calling her. Inside, outside, she was nowhere to be found. I was worried that she went outside and was maybe sick or hurt so was searching the entire yard when all of a sudden it hit me - the car.

Sure enough, this poor 70 lb pit mix had been stuck in the car for about four hours. She was panting and so nervous. It was in the 60s that morning and my car was parked in the shade. I shudder to think what would have happened if it was any hotter outside or if I had discovered much later that I had left her in the car.

A slight change of schedule and a quieter than usual dog was all it took. This incident shook me to my core and I realized how easily this sort of thing can happen. It was terrifying. I would not have been able to forgive myself if she had died in the car due to my negligence. I cannot even bring myself to imagine how it would feel if this happened with a child. My heart breaks for this family. It's scary how easily it can happen.

 

[Catmommy]

Four hours and eight plus is a HUGE difference. The Dad being a social worker for the VA hospital, I am quite certain that he was OFF that weekend ( I worked for the VA almost 20 years). I also know that things are NOT so harried for social workers in the system that they don't have plenty of time to muck about, in fact, in my experience only, more do more of that than don't. Plenty of time for reflection there. "Auto pilot". "Blanking out". Just plain forgot. The negligence still resulted in the torturous death of two precious babies. The negligence is still criminal.

 

[Catmommy]

I don't know that it's "no doubt" that it stank like a dead body in that car. He could've rolled the windows down the moment he got in or even before he got in. It might not have smelled the way you assume it should.

respectfully snipped

I was thinking more of twin full diapers not the unmistakable wanky odor of death. I should have been more clear.

 

[gitana1]

respectfully snipped

I was thinking more of twin full diapers not the unmistakable wanky odor of death. I should have been more clear.

Death or diapers wouldn't make much of a difference if he immediately rolled down the windows. I always do if it's warm out.

 

[Catmommy]

As hot as it's been, most people would just turn on the ac when they started the car.

 

[Catmommy]

Is it really plausible that crappy diapers would be an odor you wouldn't notice immediately? Really?

 

[gitana1]

Four hours and eight plus is a HUGE difference. The Dad being a social worker for the VA hospital, I am quite certain that he was OFF that weekend ( I worked for the VA almost 20 years). I also know that things are NOT so harried for social workers in the system that they don't have plenty of time to muck about, in fact, in my experience only, more do more of that than don't. Plenty of time for reflection there. "Auto pilot". "Blanking out". Just plain forgot. The negligence still resulted in the torturous death of two precious babies. The negligence is still criminal.

What exactly did he do or fail to do that constituted criminal negligence? Did he get high so he wasn't as aware? Did he put his kids in the car and decide he didn't have time to drop them off so they'd be okay in the car while he worked? What was the mens rea here? What was the awareness he had that he ignored which is present in most criminal negligence?

 

[gitana1]

Is it really plausible that crappy diapers would be an odor you wouldn't notice immediately? Really?

Your assuming a lot. Maybe they pooped in the morning and already had changed diapers before they died. And then they died within an hour or so, before any food could be digested to that extent?

Perhaps he rolled his windows down via his remote like I sometimes do, until the air kicked on and didn't notice it as intently until the air kicked on and he rolled it back up?

I mean what exactly are you saying? Are you saying he noticed his dead kids' diaper smell and simply ignored it because he is evil and intended to kill his kids?

Or are you saying something is wrong with his brain because he apparently didn't notice immediately? And somehow that means he's a criminally negligent parent?

I'm not sure what you're saying. It kind of sounds like you're saying there is no way he could've missed it immediately so he knew and evilly ignored his children's corpses?

 

[gitana1]

As hot as it's been, most people would just turn on the ac when they started the car.

Yeah and many people roll down the windows until the AC starts to work.

What exactly is your point? I'm not following this.

 

[Catmommy]

What exactly did he do or fail to do that constituted criminal negligence? Did he get high so he wasn't as aware? Did he put his kids in the car and decide he didn't have time to drop them off so they'd be okay in the car while he worked? What was the mens rea here? What was the awareness he had that he ignored which is present in most criminal negligence?

The awareness that he had his children with him. He was responsible for their well being and safety. If a father cannot be trusted to take care of his children, especially when he had already dropped off their sibling a short time before, who can? Had the twins had been left in a van by a child care worker no matter how stressed and how many children to care for the excuse of auto pilot and/or blanked out would not be acceptable. Why is it any different when this is the children's own father. He neglected them. They died AS A RESULT.

 

[gitana1]

The awareness that he had his children with him. He was responsible for their well being and safety. If a father cannot be trusted to take care of his children, especially when he had already dropped off their sibling a short time before, who can? Had the twins had been left in a van by a child care worker no matter how stressed and how many children to care for the excuse of auto pilot and/or blanked out would not be acceptable. Why is it any different when this is the children's own father. He neglected them. They died AS A RESULT.

What awareness? So not being aware is negligence? And how do you compel yourself to be aware despite exhaustion, a change in the routine, not realizing something like this can happen, autopilot, suddenly super quiet kids, everything Dr. Diamond explains happens to the brains of the people this happens to?

I mean it's one thing if you're fully educated about how it happens and what to do to prevent it and then fail to do that. Like Ross Harris explained he reviewed the "look back" program, knew all about hot car deaths and how people forget and a week or so later, "forgot".

But if you have no education and are an excellent parent who has done everything possible to ensure the safety of your kids and then your brain fails, how is the failure of your brain neglect? What precise thing did you do or fail to do?

Just forgetting has never been defined as neglect unless it was caused by something like drugs or getting drunk in a bar while you intentionally leave your kid in the car thinking you will come out sooner than you did. Or leaving your infant in the bathtub while you play video games. Or repeatedly doing something you know is risky despite the risk. Such as allowing drugs or a loaded gun to be within reach of your kid.

Just forgetting isn't a negligent act unless there's something that shows you did something reckless like drugs or alcohol or let's say you know you have a memory defect and you've forgottten your child before and you do nothing to ensure it doesn't happen again like alarms, people helping with childcare or calls to check in, etc.

Legally, having a lapse in cognition isn't negligence. Unless you purposefully caused that lapse due to imbibing something or unless the lapse was something common to you that needed to be safeguarded against.

 

[neesaki]

The awareness that he had his children with him. He was responsible for their well being and safety. If a father cannot be trusted to take care of his children, especially when he had already dropped off their sibling a short time before, who can? Had the twins had been left in a van by a child care worker no matter how stressed and how many children to care for the excuse of auto pilot and/or blanked out would not be acceptable. Why is it any different when this is the children's own father. He neglected them. They died AS A RESULT.

Good point, if this had been a daycare worker, hard to believe there wouldn’t be criminal prosecution.

 

[gitana1]

Also, it's different because paid child care providers are professionals who take all the safety courses and do all the constant head counts and check kids off and are trained to do certain things like check vehicles at the end of trips.

Parents aren't.

Special knowledge and training creates an increased obligation and standard of care, legally.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

The awareness that he had his children with him. He was responsible for their well being and safety. If a father cannot be trusted to take care of his children, especially when he had already dropped off their sibling a short time before, who can? Had the twins had been left in a van by a child care worker no matter how stressed and how many children to care for the excuse of auto pilot and/or blanked out would not be acceptable. Why is it any different when this is the children's own father. He neglected them. They died AS A RESULT.

I think that intent is what makes a difference for some people on whether forgetting a child in a hot car to die is a crime or not.

If the parent shows remorse, wasn't intoxicated, or distracted because he or she was doing something reprehensible like sexting a minor then it is simply an accident. No punishment for that. JMO

 

[Catmommy]

Spoken like a lawyer, oh wait.... I respect the argument, I do, and I do understand where you are coming from. I actually like the Father's defense attorney as well and I believe that this will figure into his defense, rightly so. I, however, feel that NO ONE has more vested interest in keeping a child safe than their parents and they are CHARGED with the duty to do so until the child can care for itself. If the child isn't fed, that's neglect and the parent's fault. If a child isn't kept clean and sheltered, that's neglect and the parent's fault. If the child is in the parent's car, forgotten and left there to die a horrible death that wouldn't have happened had the parent not FORGOTTEN, THAT'S NEGLECT and the parent's fault.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Good point, if this had been a daycare worker, hard to believe there wouldn’t be criminal prosecution.

I'm sure that's true.

I guess the fact that they are paid to do a responsible job makes "forgetting" an inexcusable act no matter if the circumstances are the same. JMO

 

[Rosegold68]

so has this parent actually been properly diagnosed as having this forgotten baby syndrome then?

or are we just guessing?

 

[Rosegold68]

and is 'forgotten baby syndrome"even a proper medically recognised syndrome, or just something made up to describe events?