NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #1

[gajonka]

I've started a map.

http://goo.gl/maps/KDGUp

I wonder how thoroughly Latourette Park was searched.

Thanks! We've been a bit sub-par in the map department - since the beginning.

As a hypothetical -

With a window of 6 to 10.30 - many miles can be travelled. "The Ice Man," by author Philip Carlo, related to Kuklinksi, discloses his favorite areas - caves - PA - I was thinking Pocono's but do not know what 4 hours amounts to - geographically - as a HYPOTHETICAL.

It is interesting to note - I feel the 4.5 hours could quite possibly be a meaningful key... think about it. Not 6 hours.... not overnight... 4.5 hours.
<.G>

 

[epiphany]

Was LaTourette Park there at the time she disappeared or was it just an impenetrable woods?

My guess is various parts would have been accessible only to a certain point by vehicle, and then on foot. Historical house was there, and golf course (Don't know if golf course was there in 1975):

http://forgotten-ny.com/1999/08/latourette-park/

http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/latourettepark/history

 

[bessie]

Was LaTourette Park there at the time she disappeared or was it just an impenetrable woods?

From the article, I get the idea that prior to 1984 the Greenbelt was mostly undeveloped woods with perhaps a few roads running through them.

LaTourette Park is a section of Staten Island’s Greenbelt, one of the borough’s flagship parks. Established in 1984, the Greenbelt forms a nearly contiguous circle of publicly and privately owned green space in the center of Staten Island. At 2,800 acres, the Greenbelt is the largest park under municipal jurisdiction. Much of the Greenbelt’s territory is preserved in its natural state, harboring a wide variety of plants and animals

http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/latourettepark/history

http://goo.gl/maps/JY7mE

 

[bessie]

Thanks! We've been a bit sub-par in the map department - since the beginning.

As a hypothetical -

With a window of 6 to 10.30 - many miles can be travelled. "The Ice Man," by author Philip Carlo, related to Kuklinksi, discloses his favorite areas - caves - PA - I was thinking Pocono's but do not know what 4 hours amounts to - geographically - as a HYPOTHETICAL.

It is interesting to note - I feel the 4.5 hours could quite possibly be a meaningful key... think about it. Not 6 hours.... not overnight... 4.5 hours.
<.G>

I don't know, gajonka. With 2800 acres of woods, would it be necessary to drive anywhere else?

I don't understand why there was no publicity and no effort to find her. A large scale effort was needed to search those woods. That wouldn't have been a secret around town. Did any search at all take place?

 

[epiphany]

I've started a map.

http://goo.gl/maps/KDGUp

I wonder how thoroughly Latourette Park was searched.

snipped

Just north of the cemetery entrance on Richmond Hill Road, you&#8217;ll see a road called Old Mill Road trailing off into the distance. It looks like a dead end with a gate at the end of the street at the St. Andrews Church rectory. It is a dead end&#8230;but to cars only. For hikers and pedestrians, it&#8217;s a gateway to the wilderness. Hike to the end of the road and step around the gate.

http://forgotten-ny.com/1999/08/latourette-park/

 

[Dushi]

I don't know, gajonka. With 2800 acres of woods, would it be necessary to drive anywhere else?

I don't understand why there was no publicity and no effort to find her. A large scale effort was needed to search those woods. That wouldn't have been a secret around town. Did any search at all take place?

2800 acres, it certainly opens up a world of possibilities

I wonder about a search as well

 

[epiphany]

I don't know, gajonka. With 2800 acres of woods, would it be necessary to drive anywhere else?

I don't understand why there was no publicity and no effort to find her. A large scale effort was needed to search those woods. That wouldn't have been a secret around town. Did any search at all take place?

The infamous 3,000 acre Fresh Kills landfill was nearby as well:

snipped

Mostly, though, Fresh Kills was a giant accident, environmentalists say -- a 53-year chain reaction that became a 3,000-acre behemoth of refuse without anyone ever quite intending it. The original plans for the site, a swampy lowland of bogs and streams (the word kill, from the Dutch, means stream), called for garbage to be dumped there for just five years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/18/nyregion/dumping-ends-at-fresh-kills-symbol-of-throw-away-era.html

And more here:

http://freshkillspark.wordpress.com/tag/fresh-kills-landfill/

 

[Jmoose]

From the article, I get the idea that prior to 1984 the Greenbelt was mostly undeveloped woods with perhaps a few roads running through them.

http://www.nycgovparks.org/parks/latourettepark/history

http://goo.gl/maps/JY7mE

I doubt anyone looked for her there-at least there are no reports to say so. It would have been a nearly perfect spot for her to disappear, assuming she went missing at that K-Mart plaza

 

[Jmoose]

I don't know, gajonka. With 2800 acres of woods, would it be necessary to drive anywhere else?

I don't understand why there was no publicity and no effort to find her. A large scale effort was needed to search those woods. That wouldn't have been a secret around town. Did any search at all take place?

The fact that there was no publicity and no real effort to find Sylvia is what is so troubling-as you saw, her mother filed the report, and that appears to be the end of it. I think nowadays you couldn't get away with that, and wouldn't try to if you were the officer handling the case.

 

[Odyssey]

I've started a map.

http://goo.gl/maps/KDGUp

I wonder how thoroughly Latourette Park was searched.

That just reminded me of something - I'll have to look back though some websites to see if I can find any information.

I doubt the park was searched when Sylvia went missing, but there have been huge searches of wooded areas on SI in the years since 1987 for Rand victims. The group that heads up these searches is called Friends of Jennifer, and was formed when they were searching for Jennifer Schweiger, who was found deceased on the grounds of Willowbrook. I'm not sure what areas exactly have been searched, or if they are aware of Sylvia, but I know they still do searches to this day.

I'll see if I can find any lists of what areas they have covered.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Though I've lived on Staten Island for the last forty two years, I have to admit I have no recollection of Sylvia or her disappearance. Though I would have been fairly young at the time my love of mystery meant I was always keenly aware of crime in the news. I've asked a few friends and family members if they remember the case but so far no one has.

Staten Island has always had a pretty low crime rate, especially violent crime and the only serial killers connected to the Island that come quickly to mind are Andre Rand (the subject of the documentary Cropsey), Richard Biegenwald and, a century ago, Albert Fish. Rand tended to prey on children and Biegerwald seems to have committed his crimes in New Jersey, though a number of victims were discovered in the basement of his mother's house on Staten Island and, from the timeline on Wikipedia, he seems to have been out of prison at the time of Sylvia's disappearance.

Of course serial killers aren't the only predators well versed in the art of disposing of an inconvenient body. Staten Island may not be knee deep in serial killers but we do have a long and infamous tradition of organized crime. I have no doubt there are any number of "goodfellas" out there who would know exactly how to make a body disappear.

Assuming the fiancé&#8217;s story is to be believed, and with so little information to go on that may be a fairly broad assumption, it's possible Sylvia ran into someone who did her harm and then had the knowledge, or knew a guy with the knowledge, of how to make certain she was never found.

Until more details emerge the possibilities are endless. I'm going to continue to ask around to see if I can find anyone who remembers the case plus I'll check out our local paper to see if they have anything in their archive.

--Bringing an early post forward, #4. BBM: It seems things went silent. No one heard? No one recalls? No one remembers? And the poster brings up the "infamous tradition of organized crime" on Staten Island that I think Gajonka is referencing in "The Iceman".

Why "no publicity" on the police report? Ok, low crime rate in general as poster mentions, but did anyone think murder, random murder, serial murder, was a possibility when she disappeared in 1975? --At the time of her disappearance? As someone else asked did anyone look for her in the days after her disappearance?

 

[indicajane]

I think it's important to note that nowhere on the report does it say that publicity was not desired BY THE FAMILY. It appears the family WAS concerned, the mother going to report her daughter to the police after waiting the well known "24 hours" almost to the minute, the hiring of a private investigator..for a family who we can only hypothesis was middle-class (a few wealthy chefs, like Gordon Ramsey, but generally? Runs the gamut from lower blue-collar class to five star restaurant comfortable living middle class), would mean that they cared.
Imho, the "no publicity" was a judgement call by the police officer who took the report, who thought it was the story of a hysterical girl who was hiding out In her bff s dorm room complaining about men and parents. Imho, their negligence was due to believing the financee's version of events over her mother's, with her mother knowing her daughter, and her daughter's behavior well enough to know this was not typical behavior.

Imho of course, sorry for butting in

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 

[Jmoose]

I think it's important to note that nowhere on the report does it say that publicity was not desired BY THE FAMILY. It appears the family WAS concerned, the mother going to report her daughter to the police after waiting the well known "24 hours" almost to the minute, the hiring of a private investigator..for a family who we can only hypothesis was middle-class (a few wealthy chefs, like Gordon Ramsey, but generally? Runs the gamut from lower blue-collar class to five star restaurant comfortable living middle class), would mean that they cared.
Imho, the "no publicity" was a judgement call by the police officer who took the report, who thought it was the story of a hysterical girl who was hiding out In her bff s dorm room complaining about men and parents. Imho, their negligence was due to believing the financee's version of events over her mother's, with her mother knowing her daughter, and her daughter's behavior well enough to know this was not typical behavior.

Imho of course, sorry for butting in

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

Good thinking-thanks for butting in! It's hard to tell what that "no publicity" actually means. If only we could ask someone who is familar with this form that was filled out at the time Sylvia disappeared. I wonder what the private investigator dug up? It's truly remarkable that there is just...nothing to contemplate here.

 

[Dushi]

I think it's important to note that nowhere on the report does it say that publicity was not desired BY THE FAMILY. It appears the family WAS concerned, the mother going to report her daughter to the police after waiting the well known "24 hours" almost to the minute, the hiring of a private investigator..for a family who we can only hypothesis was middle-class (a few wealthy chefs, like Gordon Ramsey, but generally? Runs the gamut from lower blue-collar class to five star restaurant comfortable living middle class), would mean that they cared.
Imho, the "no publicity" was a judgement call by the police officer who took the report, who thought it was the story of a hysterical girl who was hiding out In her bff s dorm room complaining about men and parents. Imho, their negligence was due to believing the financee's version of events over her mother's, with her mother knowing her daughter, and her daughter's behavior well enough to know this was not typical behavior.Imho of course, sorry for butting in


Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

I think thats it
IMO, LE believed this to be a young woman who left her life behind

Anyone know why a detective would write "will not handle"?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I don't know, gajonka. With 2800 acres of woods, would it be necessary to drive anywhere else?

I don't understand why there was no publicity and no effort to find her. A large scale effort was needed to search those woods. That wouldn't have been a secret around town. Did any search at all take place?

BBM: And don't forget the Fresh Kills landfill ...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Originally Posted by swo
Though I've lived on Staten Island for the last forty two years, I have to admit I have no recollection of Sylvia or her disappearance. Though I would have been fairly young at the time my love of mystery meant I was always keenly aware of crime in the news. I've asked a few friends and family members if they remember the case but so far no one has.

Staten Island has always had a pretty low crime rate, especially violent crime and the only serial killers connected to the Island that come quickly to mind are Andre Rand (the subject of the documentary Cropsey), Richard Biegenwald and, a century ago, Albert Fish. Rand tended to prey on children and Biegerwald seems to have committed his crimes in New Jersey, though a number of victims were discovered in the basement of his mother's house on Staten Island and, from the timeline on Wikipedia, he seems to have been out of prison at the time of Sylvia's disappearance.

Of course serial killers aren't the only predators well versed in the art of disposing of an inconvenient body. Staten Island may not be knee deep in serial killers but we do have a long and infamous tradition of organized crime. I have no doubt there are any number of "goodfellas" out there who would know exactly how to make a body disappear.

Assuming the fiancé&#8217;s story is to be believed, and with so little information to go on that may be a fairly broad assumption, it's possible Sylvia ran into someone who did her harm and then had the knowledge, or knew a guy with the knowledge, of how to make certain she was never found.

Until more details emerge the possibilities are endless. I'm going to continue to ask around to see if I can find anyone who remembers the case plus I'll check out our local paper to see if they have anything in their archive.

--Bringing an early post forward, #4. BBM: It seems things went silent. No one heard? No one recalls? No one remembers? And the poster brings up the "infamous tradition of organized crime" on Staten Island that I think Gajonka is referencing in "The Iceman".

Why "no publicity" on the police report? Ok, low crime rate in general as poster mentions, but did anyone think murder, random murder, serial murder, was a possibility when she disappeared in 1975? --At the time of her disappearance? As someone else asked did anyone look for her in the days after her disappearance?

Rose, thanks for bringing this forward!

BBM 1&2: JMoose, if you can cite your sources that show Biegenwald wasn't actually out until later than 9/1974, we might be able to put speculation about Biegenwald to rest. I think there should be decisive info on this somewhere. Also, Biegenwald placed his bodies just so ... people found them. No one found Sylvia, and no unidentified Biegenwald bodies await ID -- correct?

BBM 3: Fresh Kills landfill, Fresh Kills landfill ....

BBM 4: We do need more info ... SWO, did you ever get a chance to look at the local newspaper archives?

BBM 5: The silence around this is dramatic. Looking at the term "depressed" again. Do we have any information about medical history or psychiatric treatment for SL? One reason for the silence could be that the family suspected suicide. Of course, dead people can't hide their own bodies ... but there is harbor access to consider, and the sea below Tottenville.

During those fights at home with her father, maybe SL said something that made everyone suspect she ran away. For example, "If he kicks me out, you'll NEVER see me again!" This also provides an explanation for why a family member would want to find her now. The family legend may be that she left on her own.

BBM 6: Random serial death is certainly a possibility, and it wouldn't be the first time that a woman who had just had a fight with her BF was selected for that fate. But I am still not ready to let go of "disappeared" and "suicide."

 

[Dushi]

I know that anything is possible

I can't wrap my head around suicide
She would have had to hide herself really well, a lot of thought would go into a hiding place like that

As far as Harbour/sea, always a possibility but nothing AFAIK has ever been recovered.. no handbag etc.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think it's important to note that nowhere on the report does it say that publicity was not desired BY THE FAMILY. It appears the family WAS concerned, the mother going to report her daughter to the police after waiting the well known "24 hours" almost to the minute, the hiring of a private investigator..for a family who we can only hypothesis was middle-class (a few wealthy chefs, like Gordon Ramsey, but generally? Runs the gamut from lower blue-collar class to five star restaurant comfortable living middle class), would mean that they cared.
Imho, the "no publicity" was a judgement call by the police officer who took the report, who thought it was the story of a hysterical girl who was hiding out In her bff s dorm room complaining about men and parents. Imho, their negligence was due to believing the financee's version of events over her mother's, with her mother knowing her daughter, and her daughter's behavior well enough to know this was not typical behavior.

Imho of course, sorry for butting in

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

BBM 1: That's interesting, and definitely possible. Thanks for butting in and pointing that out! The only thing that makes me hesitate is that there is a space at the bottom of the report for police input. The stuff above seems designed to be elicited by interview.

BBM 2: I'd sure like to know what the PI's marching orders were. Do we have any idea who the PI was? What information the PI was given? Whether a PI report still exists?

BBM 3: I agree with your assessment of these details. I also think they could feel that way if the mother wanted them to search for a runaway adult. For example, "Ah, she'll come back. Lennon advises will not handle."

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I know that anything is possible

I can't wrap my head around suicide
She would have had to hide herself really well, a lot of thought would go into a hiding place like that

As far as Harbour/sea, always a possibility but nothing AFAIK has ever been recovered.. no handbag etc.

That's a good point, but I'm not convinced they had a great handle on that back then. When we went to the shore as kids, there were always random things washing up on beaches.

Looking at a map though, I realize I would need to know more about currents to be sure if this was a real possibility. SI shores empty into Lower Bay, Raritan Bay, Sandy Hook Bay. Could a body make it out to sea? A body is not what I mean by random things washing up on beaches. Those harbor areas are rough shores -- not beaches, but true working harbors. Could a body get caught in moorings and never surface? When I was in high school, which is around the time SL vanished (class of 74), I remember hearing stories about bodies in garbage liners washing up in Sandy Hook.

 

[Dushi]

Something I just noticed on PR

The glasses were left in the car
I think up thread we were wondering about the glasses