NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #1

[Dushi]

I am having trouble with the timeline we have been given(speculation)

Picked up around 5:30, last seen at 6PM

Last seen at 6Pm by whom

I keep thinking Mom is giving this information

Does that mean Mom last saw her at 6PM ish

But then it says Kmart... I am very confused

Sorry i keep hammering at this....

 

[GoingByMyGut]

LETS JUST SAY......

Mom went to the police station alone to file a missing persons report
She gave the description etc.

No investigation had started at this time

Could the last seen @ 6PM be the last time she was seen by Mom as no one else had been spoken to at the time of the PR?

JMO

That's an interesting thought, Dushi. In other words, making the BF argument later in the evening? That would be very difficult to verify though.

Yes it would be, as is every other speculation about this case

Yes, that's definitely the case. But let me tell you what I was thinking specifically, because I wasn't putting the idea down. In fact, I think it was crazy-good thinking on your part and I doubt it's ever occurred to anyone before. It certainly didn't to me.

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that this goes to what was in the minds of two people at the time, one of whom is dead, the other off-limits. There's no chance of 3rd party verification, right? (With other aspects of our various speculations, we can at least hope 3rd party verification is possible, even though we seem unable to find it.) The question is so out-of-the-box, I can't imagine, say, the younger brother asking Mom about it years into the future ... can you?

And this is a really important thing you point out. On the one hand, the BF could have gone WITH Mom to the PD Sunday to file the report. Even if he did, Mom's name would likely be on it as the person legally responsible for SL. Right? IIRC, we don't really know how this went down. In this case, LE would be taking a report based on their combined info, and we could trust that 6 PM represents the last time the BF saw her, leaving a particular window of time between "last seen" and the BF going to SL's house and relaying what happened (if this happend this way at all -- an unverified tale, but all we have).

On the other hand, it's possible the BF dropped out of the situation after informing Mom Saturday night (same unverified tale) and that Mom went to the PD alone Sunday. In this case, frazzled Mom might not have been able to recall the exact time and LE might have just said, "Well, when did YOU last see her?" If you are right about this, this could significantly narrow the "window" mentioned above in the BF's favor. (I know someone made the case earlier that the window -- based on the unverified tale -- wasn't huge to begin with. I'm just saying that a smaller window is in the direction of the BF's favor.)

Could they even have seen a movie? I seem to rememeber that movie theaters went on fertility drugs after this time period. I think we got our first multiplex in the early 80s, but who knows about SI. Before multiplexes, movies weren't at weird times. I remember usually being able to count on showings being either 7 or 9. In any case, even a 7 PM showing would put the fight in dusk or the dark. It would also suggest, if the BF did indeed show up at SL's house as the tale states (10/10:30?), then he must of thought SL was headed home, and that she could get there PDQly.

Looking again at Bessie's map, it looks like the fastest ways home would have been down Richmond Ave or through the woods if she was comfortable with that shortcut. I have no idea if there would have been a path or dirt road she could have taken.

There's too much unknown here to speculate any further. This is thin anyway, because of the unverified tale. I'm just saying, the detail is pivotal, but I don't see how we we would ever find this out.

 

[Dushi]

Its quite possible that there are people who know facts about Sylvias disappearance and have have chosen not to comment publicly

It could be just a matter of not wanting to relive a bad time in their own life, a sad time

Losing a friend...

I am very frustrated , there is just nothing other than the few facts on the PR

 

[Jmoose]

This is the thing that I do not understand, someone is reported missing,and the police decide if they are going to investigate or not?? I cannot get my head around that, did they at that time decide which cases they wanted to work on and which ones they didn't?..

I understand what you are saying-they don't really decide what they'll investigate and what they won't-more like how they will investigate it.

 

[Jmoose]

Is there a time when it would not be extraordinary bad luck to run into a serial killer? I know that's not your point -- I think you're saying that it would be the icing on the cake of so many bad things converging at one time -- but I think this kind of thing usually happens on bad days ... when a young woman is vulnerable, and that vulnerability is apparent. I'm not trying to be argumentative, it's just that I can see that being part of the "formula," if you will. That it could happen because those things converged, because someone was alone, because they were distraught. JMO

Yes-I get what you are saying- you understand that I mean "what kind of freakin' bad day would that be"?!!

 

[Jmoose]

I'm again trying to put myself in their shoes as far as what they might have been thinking at the time.

A long time ago, I got upset and walked out of the house. It wasn't anything major, just that my husband had the day off and had been home all day, I had a long, bad day at work, and as soon as I walked in the door, he said "What's for dinner?" and I just snapped. I think I came back around 3am, I just needed to cool off.

If I had looked at the paper the next morning and seen my face as a missing person, I would have been pretty pissed off... (at that time I hadn't ever looked at missing person cases so I wouldn't have understood why anyone would report me missing). That could be part of why the publicity desired was answered with a no. She might not have wanted Sylvia to come back and be furious with her, or having to explain to everyone who had seen it in the paper.

Oh, yeah-and the police probably told the mom-"make sure you really want to report her missing, because if we find her before she gets home, there's some 'splainin' to do." And all of the wives here have had a day like yours! (Lol)

 

[GoingByMyGut]

bbm

No, Rand wasn't on the radar until Jennifer Schweiger's disappearance, IIRC - and that was in 1987, that's when they went back and started linking him to all the other ones. That's why I think they may have overlooked the fact that Rand may have been incarcerated when Tiahease went missing.

What I found odd was that they linked virtually every missing female on Staten Island to him, except Sylvia (and Brenda Crowley, who was most likely a runaway - still not found) so I wondered why not Sylvia? It made me wonder if they had another theory on what happened to Sylvia.

All these years later, it is difficult to tell whether the police investigated or not-there isn't much evidence that they did. I ran it past my husband, an objective person who isn't invested emotionally in this (yet), and he said he thought it would be difficult to imagine that they didn't investigate it at all. I think that Odyssey's observation hat they may have had another theory is a good one. If anything, if they wanted to be lazy, they could certainly have attributed her disappearance to him, yet they did not?

BBM1 -- Thanks, Odyssey, that's how I was reading it too.

BBM3 -- I'm not sure which you mean, JMoose -- Odd that they wouldnt have investigated Rand in 1975? Or later? From what I can gather, no one was on to Rand in 1975. He had sex offenses behind him, but in the absence of a registry, they might not even have known that until they had to look him up because he committed a crime or did something else hinky. And later, if they did investigate SL's disappearance in relation to him, what did they have to go on? No body, no trail ...

BBM2 & BBM4 -- I can think of two solid (speculative) reasons why they wouldn't think to investigate SL in relation to Rand.

(1) Superficially, she did not fit with what they knew of Rand's MO: young, mentally challenged girls. It's only later, with Rand's own damning self-disclosures, that he lets on that it's vulnerability ("lonely" women), not necessarily age, that entices him. I think police would have been looking for more superficially similar connections between SL and Rand's other alleged victims, and would not have found them.

(2) In missing person cases, among the first things LE asks, are questions like: "Do you have any reason to think she went missing because of anything but her own free will?" "Has she ever threatened to run away before?" "Was she emotionally unstable/upset/depressed?" I know we have all weighed in on the fact that the BF's story makes it sound like she got mad and stormed off on her own. We still don't know whether Mom, in her innocence, may have said things like, "Well, I don't know that anyone took her ..." or "Well, she did tell her father that ...." "Hmm, you could say she was depressed." Ten years later, there might still have been someone around the precint to say, "Lwowski? Nah, that was a runaway."

What other theory could they have on her disappearance that they wouldn't follow up on? As I was cruising the NY Times archive this morning, I saw cases later in the 80s -- a couple of rape/murders where the bodies were dumped in the water on SI -- and LE was very candid about having suspects (not AR) related to the respective victims, and telling the press that they were invetigating those leads. The only other reasons I can see here are ones that make them not investigate ... can you guys come up with any other ideas?

 

[Odyssey]

There are also Staten Island forums here:

www.silive.com/forums/

There is a Tottenville forum, a Crime and Punishment forum, and a NYPD forum that might all be good places to post something.

GBMG or Rose, I think one of you should post something, you both are great with words!

Has anyone already posted on these forums, or is planning to?

If not, I can do this... but if I do it, I feel more comfortable to present myself as a former local (which I am) as opposed to a sleuth, and just let people respond on the SILIVE forum - let me know if anyone's already working on this, I don't want to duplicate efforts.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I'm again trying to put myself in their shoes as far as what they might have been thinking at the time.

A long time ago, I got upset and walked out of the house. It wasn't anything major, just that my husband had the day off and had been home all day, I had a long, bad day at work, and as soon as I walked in the door, he said "What's for dinner?" and I just snapped. I think I came back around 3am, I just needed to cool off.

If I had looked at the paper the next morning and seen my face as a missing person, I would have been pretty pissed off... (at that time I hadn't ever looked at missing person cases so I wouldn't have understood why anyone would report me missing). That could be part of why the publicity desired was answered with a no. She might not have wanted Sylvia to come back and be furious with her, or having to explain to everyone who had seen it in the paper.

BBM1: Yeah, that happens, doesn't it ...

BBM2: It seems almost comical when you say it like that ... but I think you're 100% right. Initally -- at least with someone Sylvia's age -- you're going to call their friends, maybe, but give them the benefit of the doubt. You hope that maybe they'll stroll in late, show up in the morning, it'll all seem so silly tomorrow ...

I also think that people try to cling to what's logical in these situations, a process: Don't panic, first give them a chance to come home, maybe it's nothing -- then call police.

By the time of the pubilicity Q though she'd already been "missing" 24 hours. ... Hmm. I hear you, but I guess I think there are too many possible reasons for the mother to not want publicity at this point? I think what you say is logical and plausible, it's just hard -- for me anyway -- to hang it on one.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

There are also Staten Island forums here:

www.silive.com/forums/

There is a Tottenville forum, a Crime and Punishment forum, and a NYPD forum that might all be good places to post something.

GBMG or Rose, I think one of you should post something, you both are great with words!

These are great options, Odyssey! I have also seen a historical Staten Island FB page -- I think it's called Secret Staten Island. Hopefully, once we post it in a few places, it will get a life of its own from reposts.

Re the BBM, thanks for the kind words, too :blushing: So nice to be linked with you, Rose. :blowkiss:

 

[GoingByMyGut]

There is a mistake in that and i can't correct it..

The PR states last seen at 6PM, Kmart Plaza Area but it DOES NOT say the BF saw her last

Okay, but that's still verified, right? It's in the first post that way: "He returned stating that during an argument, she thew her glasses against the dashboard and ran from the car. Sylvia has not been seen since."

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Yes-I get what you are saying- you understand that I mean "what kind of freakin' bad day would that be"?!!

ROTFL, I sointenly do, JMoose, I soitenly do

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Time for bed, night owl! Talk to you all soon.

 

[alliemay]

Maybe add the address of where she was last seen and K-mart, maybe it would jog someone's memory? If no one else wants to do it I will try to figure out how to put it on face book, I have one that I use only for missing person's which does not have my real name.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Other thoughts are what if Sylvia is out there somewhere... and she sees people are remembering and trying to find her...

The Night Owl

 

[Dushi]

I am thinking Germany, the country was where she was born

Why would they list a town and no state

 

[gajonka]

THANKS!!! This pdf is fantastic1 ;-) WHere can I , the public view?

I am sorry I have been out of reach - just being vetted. Be back soon.

During the fourth quarter of 2012 I composed letters (that included how I attempt to draw parallels between the Trimble and Durst Cases) to each newspaper publication, and dozens 0of true crime authors and e-mail groups. The silence was considerable. However, the gilded band of geniuses here at WS can never be matched, everyone here, collectively, too, represent an unparalleled force of innovativeness, creative tact, and intelligence above and beyond the prospects which may exist for any similar set (or group) which could even be close to achieveing consideration as a possible correlative set of minds worthy of an even close sense of potential synergy. Wave II will be coming, and we stand together (and thank you for your time)and continue to uphold our belief in justice - and that we will see how 30+ years of (possible) inequities that have held together, we will see how a group can ACT AND PRACTICE AND YIELD TO OTHERS WHAT IS THEIR DUE** For virtue and honor, will, i hope rise above what we have seen happen to this beautiful, innocent, free-spirited girl,,,sylvia lwowski and sylvia lwowski's cause.

Your friend,
The Gajonka
ps/ *** the caps with star suffix is nothing more than a sentence taken from Meeriam Webster's definition of justice , 2005, Merriam Webster Incorporated.









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[bessie]

Please check this out.

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[gajonka]

I agree - I was simply pointing out that - after reading an earlier post about potetntially sending out tranmissions - my thoughts were that it would not be a good move (and against WS policy ansd procedure of acceptable method) - since I had already covered it late last year -on my own, solo, before Sylvi'a case had been introduced to WS ( hence no WS reference or anything WS linked). I apologize if the post came across as - a promotion of an effort to attempt to pursue that course of action (as it was not). It's bifurcate purpose had been to share the type of reception received from the effort (a lot of thanks , but no thanks types of replies received from professors of that science) The post/statment penned above - my second goal had been to soley praise the brainsstorming, and pooling of thoughts, that's all. I hope I am making sense. ;-)

Please check this out.

Organized Efforts- Email Campaigns-Boycotts-Petitions:

Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

And please remember that questions about the rules should be addressed to a moderator in a pm.

Thanks!

 

[Dushi]

Lots of guests this morning

Come in and join us!