NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #1

[epiphany]

As far as the the unique heart shaped diamond engagement ring is concerned, a friend familiar with this case, gave a ride to a friend of "the BF" and he stated that he spoke with the BF and he said the he got the ring back. I can only think of a few ways in which this could of happened. Perhaps, someone else on this forum can shine more like on this particular incident?

BBM

Was the friend, who gave a ride to Sylvia's fiance's friend, dating or romantically involved with BF/F's male friend at the time?

 

[Odyssey]

Congrats on your verification, MMQC! When you catch your breath -- after the holiday if need be -- I would love it if you could clarify the above post, which was a response from you to Odyssey. Why do you think the mother (or someone else?) thought the BF/F would need an alibi? an alibi for what? for something that happened to SL?

What would that alibi be? Are you talking about the story in which SL runs from the car? Or the later visit to the house? What is the alibi?

And why would the mother help alibi the BF/F? Wouldn't it be in her interest to find out what happened to SL before covering for anybody?

As you can see, I'm super confused here ... any help will be appreciated.

I think the idea was

"She was last seen at a bus stop at 10:30pm, I was at MMQC's house at 10:45 and I was at SL's parents house at 11:00 so I couldn't have had time to harm her, do something with her, and drive to MMQC's house in 15 minutes..."

MOO

 

[epiphany]

Ok maybe I can get it said like this Maybe the B/GF could have taken her to Wagner campus.

Welcome again, MMQC!

Had Sylvia's Mother not mentioned prior to your drive with her to Wagner that Sylvia's BF/F had stopped by her home that night to say they had argued?

Who first told Sylvia's Mother that she was missing?

Snipped

I cannot say for sure about the BF/F going to her home. Very foggy about that. To my recollection no. Don't know for sure if BF/F ever went back.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975

 

[alliemay]

So is the timeline different now? Is there a new one that includes the bus stop? If so then I would think LE would need to update "the last time seen". Kind of confused but admit its not the first time with this thread.

 

[Odyssey]

So is the timeline different now? Is there a new one that includes the bus stop? If so then I would think LE would need to update "the last time seen". Kind of confused but admit its not the first time with this thread.

The bus stop was per BF/F (as told to MMQC) but I'm not sure if that would be considered fact or not...

 

[Dushi]

I don't know, the PR states 6PM
Mom filled that out

The confusing part for me is what time did ANYONE last see her?
Was she dropped at the bus at 6 or after that..... around 10?

I guess that would be hearsay (10pm)

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think the idea was

"She was last seen at a bus stop at 10:30pm, I was at MMQC's house at 10:45 and I was at SL's parents house at 11:00 so I couldn't have had time to harm her, do something with her, and drive to MMQC's house in 15 minutes..."

MOO

So is the timeline different now? Is there a new one that includes the bus stop? If so then I would think LE would need to update "the last time seen". Kind of confused but admit its not the first time with this thread.

I believe MMQC actually said the BF/F was at her house at "10-ish," which would put SL at bus stop betw 9:45-10, I think. See the addition to the timeline in ALL CAPs below. Anyone interested in seeing the sources for the timeline again can review Post 841.

TIMELINE:

5 PM (ASWDH) / 6-7 PM (MMQC): BF/F picks SL up from SL’s residence.

7-9 PM (presumed by me): Movie time?

9-10 PM: SL and BF/F have fight, SL storms from car near the mall/in traffic/at a stop sign. BF/F LEAVES SL AT BUS STOP.

10 PM: BF/F shows up at MMQC’s house. MMQCs father drives MMQC to the mall to look for SL, AND TO RETRIEVE HER FROM THE BUS STOP, AS PURPORTEDLY REQUESTED BY BF/F, BUT THEY DO NOT FIND HER. (If BF/F thought SL was at the bus stop, he must have left her very recently, no?)

10:30 PM: BF/F drives to SL’s residence and explains to Eva what happened.

10:30 -11 PM: “Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her.”

Close to midnight (?): “Eva Lwowski called the 122pct and tried to report a missing person but could not because see wasn't missing for 24 hrs. yet.”

Next day: “Eva went to 122 pct to make a formal missing persons report ...”

“Days and weeks” after SL disappears: “Charles wouldn't answer and more questions concerning Sylvia.”

“A week or two later:” “... the family hired a privet investigator”

An undetermined amount of time later: Ring is (purportedly) found to be back in BF/F's possession.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

ASWDeerHunter, when you're back on, can you verify -- if you know -- whether Eva went to Wagner to search for SL after the disappearance, and if she did, where it fits in the timeline?

Ok maybe I can get it said like this Maybe the B/GF could have taken her to Wagner campus.

MMQC, I would like to add this to the timeline, but am unclear on when it happened. Was it very late Saturday night? Sunday? If you can recall the day and time to the best of your ability, that would be great. Thanks.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think the idea was

"She was last seen at a bus stop at 10:30pm, I was at MMQC's house at 10:45 and I was at SL's parents house at 11:00 so I couldn't have had time to harm her, do something with her, and drive to MMQC's house in 15 minutes..."

MOO

Makes sense ... but an alibi is supposed to give 3rd party verification to a potential POI, and if I am understanding the story correctly, no one else actually saw the BF/F or SL at any bus stop. Also, I thought MMQC was offering the idea of the alibi as the reason for EL calling LE as quickly as she did -- so if the point was to deliver the alibi to LE, it never made it to the PR. The bus stop story does sound alibi-ish ... but this is still not clear to me.

 

[alliemay]

So police interviewed Eva and took her statement, do we have a copy of the boyfriends statement to the police?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

So is the timeline different now? Is there a new one that includes the bus stop? If so then I would think LE would need to update "the last time seen". Kind of confused but admit its not the first time with this thread.

I don't know, the PR states 6PM
Mom filled that out
The confusing part for me is what time did ANYONE last see her?
Was she dropped at the bus at 6 or after that..... around 10?
I guess that would be hearsay (10pm)

... BF/F came to my house that night to ask that I go and pick her up from the Bus Stop. It was after 10 PM and I had to ask my folks as going out after 10 PM was a big no in our house. Father took me to do the looking. We guessed that the bus came in the time between. ....

...
Just not sure of the time line from the BF/F. My home
10-ish. Movie time? Picked up from home 6-7-ish? Long time in between. Even movie would not have been long either? Most busses just made giant circles around SI.
When I search my memory my mind travels to Farrels? Ice Cream Parlor/restaurant. It was a favorite after a movie.

Charles came over to the residents around 5pm to see a movie Sylvia at a cinema about 20 min away. The theater was were Crazy Eddies was off Richmond Ave just south off the Staten Island Mall. Charles returned to the house approx. 10:30 stating that during an argument Sylvia had thrown her glasses against the dash board of the car and ran off. ...

Skeet and Dushi, I am with you both on this one. In the VI posts above -- shortened BM (where you see "..."), BBM -- two very divergent stories emerge:

(1) ONE HOUR DATE: The BF/F picks SL up at home at 5, and SL is gone (acc to the PR) by 6. And then the BF/F doesn't show up at the family home until 10:30.

(2) FIVE HOUR DATE: The BF/F picks SL up at home at 5, they spend the next FIVE hours together somehow (how doesn't really matter for purposes of "time last seen" if she is actually at the bus stop at 10), and at the end of the date they have a glasses throwing, traffic-storming fight that ends with her running off. Only in this version, SL presumably stands defiantly at a bus stop, while the BF/F runs to the GF for help bringing her to her senses. Then he goes to SL's home and tells what happened.

I don't put a lot of stock in the two different start times of the date (given in ASWDH and MMQC's posts) bc if you read MMQC's post closely, it's clear she's guessing at the time the BF/F picked SL up. But even with her later start time, she says "Long time in between." What's the relevance of that? Even 7-10 seems like a long time between the fight and the bus stop? That makes it sound like she knows the fight started early ... (Please weigh in ASWDH and MMQC, we're just working with what we have.)

One possibility here is the one that Dushi sniffed out last week ... that the "time last seen" on the PR reflects the time EVA last saw SL. While I have a hard time believing LE would define "time last seen" as anything but the time last seen by anyone, it's clear that they did not take this case seriously -- didn't even investigate -- because SL was 22 and perhaps emotionally distraught ("Det. Lennon advises will not handle."). Maybe they didn't press Eva to be specific, or maybe she preferred to give the time she last saw SL bc she didn't trust the time reported by the BF/F. Who knows? But if this is true, it suggests the date started at 6.

The trouble I have with this though, is that -- by all accounts -- the BF/F went to SL's house at 10:30. At that time, you would think he would give Eva pretty much the same story he gave the GF. I mean, why give the details of the fight, then leave out the bit about her standing at the bus stop? IOW, if Eva was told the same story, she would have known SL was last seen around 10 PM, not 6 PM. Did she NOT get the same story? Did she discount it?

Another thing ... just being true to my name here and going by my gut ... of all the stories being tossed about, this is the one that seems most like an alibi to me, bc it narrows the BF/F's window of opportunity. I am not suggesting that anyone is not being forthcoming -- no one else actually saw SL OR the BF/F betw. 5 and 10, as far as we know, regardless of the story -- but this is the period of time that we most need to come into focus, and it's buried in a confusing haze.

At the moment, it feels to me like this is getting more confusing rather than less. I am probably not helping matters. ... but what the heck, I'll add one more thing! Is a one-hour date long enough to drive to the mall (20 mins. by VI's account) and then have a life-shattering fight that ends in two people getting crazy upset and one of them disappearing? And if the date is an hour, WTF happens betw. 6-10? What happens to the GF's story? Could/would the BF/F manufacture these details for the GF in order to create an alibi that is not actually effective anyway? Then go to the SL's house and possibly tell a different story? Why?

Really, if it wasn't for the PR "time last seen," these stories would seem to mesh a little better. What would it take for us to let that detail go?

JMO (and lots of it!)

 

[epiphany]

A bit of history with this answer. Father met mother in Germany where he was stationed. She had a tatoo'd number on her arm.

LE was not her friend back in GE. Trust issues in my mind. Her mother said she did not want to label SL as unstable or attract undue attention to a possible return. Might hinder her higher education or job prospects if a full blown media attack was forthcoming. At the time I probably agreed. Now, as the saying goes hind sight is 20-20.

BBM

As a young adult yourself at the time Sylvia disappeared, as well as a friend to both her BF/F and possibly at least one other male friend of his, what led you at that time to believe that Sylvia may return and therefore may have left on her own?

 

[Jmoose]

So police interviewed Eva and took her statement, do we have a copy of the boyfriends statement to the police?

I don't know that there is any evidence that they ever contacted BF/F and took a statement from him.

 

[epiphany]

a big NO on that one! I was never even questioned by LE. BF/F came to my house that night to ask that I go and pick her up from the Bus Stop. It was after 10 PM and I had to ask my folks as going out after 10 PM was a big no in our house. Father took me to do the looking. We guessed that the bus came in the time between. I was questioned in 2010 over the phone by the cold case detective. He asked me why this was never done? I answered him with a question. You tell me, you are LE.

BBM

Did you or your father make contact that same evening with Sylvia's Mother to alert her to BF/F's arrival at your parents' home? If so, at what time?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Sylvia was extremely predicable in as she was so straight lace you could set you clock by her. She lived with her parents and when she did go out, she said were she was going and when she'll back back on the money. Grade A student, deans list constantly, no cavities etc.
The night of the incident, the police were called after Eva returned from the Mall and not seeing Sylvia.
As far as the overall search has now proceeded, All mental hospitals in the U.S. were checked, passport office for a match, all airport, cruise ships, charters, any means of transport out of the U. S. were checked. All prisons, missing or unidentified bodies/coroner dept all states. To this present time all rocks have been turned.

ASWDeerHunter, re the parts BBM, above, does that include contact with the BF/F? -- the person last believed to have seen SL alive?

 

[Dushi]

Skeet and Dushi, I am with you both on this one. In the VI posts above -- shortened BM (where you see "..."), BBM -- two very divergent stories emerge:

(1) ONE HOUR DATE: The BF/F picks SL up at home at 5, and SL is gone (acc to the PR) by 6. And then the BF/F doesn't show up at the family home until 10:30.

(2) FIVE HOUR DATE: The BF/F picks SL up at home at 5, they spend the next FIVE hours together somehow (how doesn't really matter for purposes of "time last seen" if she is actually at the bus stop at 10), and at the end of the date they have a glasses throwing, traffic-storming fight that ends with her running off. Only in this version, SL presumably stands defiantly at a bus stop, while the BF/F runs to the GF for help bringing her to her senses. Then he goes to SL's home and tells what happened.

I don't put a lot of stock in the two different start times of the date (given in ASWDH and MMQC's posts) bc if you read MMQC's post closely, it's clear she's guessing at the time the BF/F picked SL up. But even with her later start time, she says "Long time in between." What's the relevance of that? Even 7-10 seems like a long time between the fight and the bus stop? That makes it sound like she knows the fight started early ... (Please weigh in ASWDH and MMQC, we're just working with what we have.)

One possibility here is the one that Dushi sniffed out last week ... that the "time last seen" on the PR reflects the time EVA last saw SL. While I have a hard time believing LE would define "time last seen" as anything but the time last seen by anyone, it's clear that they did not take this case seriously -- didn't even investigate -- because SL was 22 and perhaps emotionally distraught ("Det. Lennon advises will not handle."). Maybe they didn't press Eva to be specific, or maybe she preferred to give the time she last saw SL bc she didn't trust the time reported by the BF/F. Who knows? But if this is true, it suggests the date started at 6.

The trouble I have with this though, is that -- by all accounts -- the BF/F went to SL's house at 10:30. At that time, you would think he would give Eva pretty much the same story he gave the GF. I mean, why give the details of the fight, then leave out the bit about her standing at the bus stop? IOW, if Eva was told the same story, she would have known SL was last seen around 10 PM, not 6 PM. Did she NOT get the same story? Did she discount it?

Another thing ... just being true to my name here and going by my gut ... of all the stories being tossed about, this is the one that seems most like an alibi to me, bc it narrows the BF/F's window of opportunity. I am not suggesting that anyone is not being forthcoming -- no one else actually saw SL OR the BF/F betw. 5 and 10, as far as we know, regardless of the story -- but this is the period of time that we most need to come into focus, and it's buried in a confusing haze.

At the moment, it feels to me like this is getting more confusing rather than less. I am probably not helping matters. ... but what the heck, I'll add one more thing! Is a one-hour date long enough to drive to the mall (20 mins. by VI's account) and then have a life-shattering fight that ends in two people getting crazy upset and one of them disappearing? And if the date is an hour, WTF happens betw. 6-10? What happens to the GF's story? Could/would the BF/F manufacture these details for the GF in order to create an alibi that is not actually effective anyway? Then go to the SL's house and possibly tell a different story? Why?

Really, if it wasn't for the PR "time last seen," these stories would seem to mesh a little better. What would it take for us to let that detail go?

JMO (and lots of it!)

Makes it sound like who knows? Who are you referring to when you say"she"?

As far as the last seen time on PR..

I think that is the last time Mom saw her. IMO, BF/F doesn't enter into it at all

I expect no statement was takem from BF/F at that time

This is Sylvias Mothers story AFAIAC

I don't understand what is so confusing
Our VIs are telling us what they remember, any of us are free to fill in the blanks

And I truly hope you are not suggesting anyone is not being forthcoming, you know, this is 38 years ago and each VI remembers what they were party to

Each is telling us about their experiences that night, as they recall
Neither ASW or MMQC were together that night, both had different experiences

 

[alliemay]

Would anyone be brave enough to call the person in charge of investigating SL and inquire if the BF ever made a formal statement. I do believe our verified members but without knowing what BF said to police it is hard to put the "bus stop" story in the "fact" file. Makes me feel like its back to square one. Since I was away I was not able to keep up with the posts as often as I would have liked. Has anyone asked our verified users if SL was pregnant? Yes call me lazy its late and did not want to go back and read every post.

 

[Dushi]

Would anyone be brave enough to call the person in charge of investigating SL and inquire if the BF ever made a formal statement. I do believe our verified members but without knowing what BF said to police it is hard to put the "bus stop" story in the "fact" file. Makes me feel like its back to square one. Since I was away I was not able to keep up with the posts as often as I would have liked. Has anyone asked our verified users if SL was pregnant? Yes call me lazy its late and did not want to go back and read every post.

The "bus stop story"is what our VI was told

Nobody knows if its true, its what she was told

There is no way of any one knowing if that is actually what happened

 

[MMQC]

MMQC

Could you tell me about the day she disappeared
Did you see her that day?

OK, here I am...Got the phone call from Admin Sat. noonish. Said they would follow up ASAP. I did not get a PM saying so but I'm thinking from these last posts that you can tell I am. SO here goes.

We were together that afternoon. Mall shopping running errands etc. Dropped her off at home so she could get ready for date with BF/F. That was the last time I saw her.

 

[alliemay]

MMQC, would you be able to tell us about the abortion the SL had, were you friends with her then and was it by the same BF or someone else. Learning the events of the day she went missing is very important but so is learning about her past. I'm sure it's not something that is easy to talk about and I am grateful for any information you can give about her. I'm looking for information that is not sugar coated, I'm sure she was a good caring person but sometimes when we care for someone we tend to leave information out. I'm here because I want to get a sense of who she was, good or not so good sometimes. I want to know about her relationship with her BF, many fights, rare fights, little fights, full blown fights, etc. Ok I'm rambling sorry.