NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #2

[MMQC]

Did the BF/F ever say exactly what their argument was about?

I don't think anyone knows except those involved what the argument was about.

BTW, I love your tag line!

 

[MMQC]

I think I may have somewhat changed my mind about Andre Rand.

I initially was thinking that he didn't have the b's to confront an adult... but I was looking at Ethel Atwell's NamUs file (in the documents) and there is a sketch there - not sure where it came from, since the other documents there say nobody saw anyone... but it sure does look like Rand.

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/show/14598

I went to this link above and paged through it. Would you believe the PR states that the det. on the case was Patrick Savage. Could it be the same person that contacted me about the cold case in 2010? Hmmmmm?

 

[Jmoose]

I think I may have somewhat changed my mind about Andre Rand.

I initially was thinking that he didn't have the b's to confront an adult... but I was looking at Ethel Atwell's NamUs file (in the documents) and there is a sketch there - not sure where it came from, since the other documents there say nobody saw anyone... but it sure does look like Rand.

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/show/14598

I can't find that sketch-interesting that Det. Patrick Savage is handling this case. He is the same detective currently responsible for Sylvia's case. Ethel disappeared from Willowbrook (Staten Island State hospital), which is where Rand is kown to have lived and roamed. Would he have been on Richmond Ave. on that September night in 1975? It sounds like the Detective thinks this may be what happened. I think it might be the easy way out for the detective-has he asked Rand, and would Rand remember?

 

[Jmoose]

I went to this link above and paged through it. Would you believe the PR states that the det. on the case was Patrick Savage. Could it be the same person that contacted me about the cold case in 2010? Hmmmmm?

Interesting, right? What do you think about this? That would be some kind of a bad day, to be fighting with her parents, then her boyfriend, and then finally encountering Andre Rand. That sort of ties it up all nice and neat for everybody. Except that Rand's preferred victim would have been a child or maybe a woman in close proximity to the Willowbrook institution. How close would Sylvia have been to that place if she walked home along Richmond Ave?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

You know so much could have happened...

But the sense I get is the "flight response" followed by outburst at the party but also not talking, not apologizing, maybe has a few issues with the BF/F too, her emotions are on edge yet contained. How did she and her BF/F resolve previous fights? If he was superior and her father inaccessible maybe she flew the coop. But so much could have happened. This is where her contacts, groups, sororities, other men (she's a really attractive woman) are important. Did she find shelter for a while and then something happened before she could get home?

MMQC is like part of her family. Maybe too close to part of the situation. Sylvia's thinking is fragmented, compartmentalized, maybe. What are the mindsets of emotional meltdowns?

BBM: I too see so many "reasonable" mindsets for the kind of flight you're describing, Rose, even though I am still not sold on any one explanation. They say we unconsciously look for what we grow up with in our romantic relationships. What if the BF/F and her father were starting to look to her like two men cut from the same cloth? In some relationships, that might be a good thing. In others ... better to end it now than live with it for ever.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Just sitting here wondering how someone could just drop off the face of the earth to never be heard from again....

She would not have had a clue as to what to do. After SL went missing I had a big blow up with my parents. And I was the bold one of us two. I sat in the parking lot of the All night grocery store because I was afraid to go any place else. At least there were people coming and going and there were lights. So again my mind wanders to a sad, sad dark place. So much time inbetween 1975 and 2013. Life is surely different now.

What would be the state of mind behind SL if she just wanted to start a new life?

BBM: MMQC, did the blowup have anything to do with SL? I am wondering what kind of ripples her disappearance had on all of your lives. Were your parents more afraid for you? More mistrustful than before? Or was it something completely unrelated?

 

[Odyssey]

I can't find that sketch-interesting that Det. Patrick Savage is handling this case. He is the same detective currently responsible for Sylvia's case. Ethel disappeared from Willowbrook (Staten Island State hospital), which is where Rand is kown to have lived and roamed. Would he have been on Richmond Ave. on that September night in 1975? It sounds like the Detective thinks this may be what happened. I think it might be the easy way out for the detective-has he asked Rand, and would Rand remember?

It's in the document section. When you click on documents, you will see a link that says Ms Ethel Louise Atwell. If you click on that, then download, you should see a bunch of reports, etc. and the sketch is toward the end of them.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think I may have somewhat changed my mind about Andre Rand.

I initially was thinking that he didn't have the b's to confront an adult... but I was looking at Ethel Atwell's NamUs file (in the documents) and there is a sketch there - not sure where it came from, since the other documents there say nobody saw anyone... but it sure does look like Rand.

https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/show/14598

Odyssey, I'm at a loss for what you mean by sketch ... do you mean a drawing (I couldn't find one)? Or possibly that paragraph about the witnesses hearing what may have been Rand talking to her, followed by her screaming?

 

[Odyssey]

I can't find that sketch-interesting that Det. Patrick Savage is handling this case. He is the same detective currently responsible for Sylvia's case. Ethel disappeared from Willowbrook (Staten Island State hospital), which is where Rand is kown to have lived and roamed. Would he have been on Richmond Ave. on that September night in 1975? It sounds like the Detective thinks this may be what happened. I think it might be the easy way out for the detective-has he asked Rand, and would Rand remember?

bbm

From what I've read about previous times Rand was questioned, he always claimed he was being framed by LE. I don't think he would admit to anything...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I went to this link above and paged through it. Would you believe the PR states that the det. on the case was Patrick Savage. Could it be the same person that contacted me about the cold case in 2010? Hmmmmm?

That's an interesting coincidence -- or maybe he's at the top of the ladder on all SI cold cases?

MMQC, to your knowledge, did anyone in Sylvia's family, or anyone in her circle of friends, work at Willowbrook?

 

[Odyssey]

Odyssey, I'm at a loss for what you mean by sketch ... do you mean a drawing (I couldn't find one)? Or possibly that paragraph about the witnesses hearing what may have been Rand talking to her, followed by her screaming?

There is a drawing in there. If you click on "Documents" then "Ms. Ethel Louise Atwell" then "Download".

 

[GoingByMyGut]

It's in the document section. When you click on documents, you will see a link that says Ms Ethel Atwell. If you click on that, you should see a bunch of reports, etc. and the sketch is toward the end of them.

Thanks, got it. I took a screen shot for the thread, but am having trouble with the attachments icon. Sorry. It has worked before. My Smilies never seem to work either.

 

[Odyssey]

Interesting, right? What do you think about this? That would be some kind of a bad day, to be fighting with her parents, then her boyfriend, and then finally encountering Andre Rand. That sort of ties it up all nice and neat for everybody. Except that Rand's preferred victim would have been a child or maybe a woman in close proximity to the Willowbrook institution. How close would Sylvia have been to that place if she walked home along Richmond Ave?

Andre Rand was also known to have a campsite at Baron Hirsch Cemetery, which borders Richmond Avenue... although not really by the mall, but down by Forest Avenue.

I thought it was far-fetched that Rand would have confronted an adult until I saw that sketch - no doubt in my mind that the sketch is of Rand... but I don't know who provided the info for the sketch, since all the documentation that is with it states that nobody saw anyone. So I'm confused.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Andre Rand was also known to have a campsite at Baron Hirsch Cemetery, which borders Richmond Avenue... although not really by the mall, but down by Forest Avenue.

I thought it was far-fetched that Rand would have confronted an adult until I saw that sketch - no doubt in my mind that the sketch is of Rand... but I don't know who provided the info for the sketch, since all the documentation that is with it states that nobody saw anyone. So I'm confused.

BBM: Yes, the description makes it seem like witnesses heard rather than saw things. But it does look like a sketch artist drawing. Under the "Circumstances" link there is this chilling paragraph:

"Ethel Louise Atwell 47yrs was abducted from her job Staten Island Development center on Tuesday October 24, 1978. She arrived approx. 5:30am and had apparently arrived on the jobsite at 6:00am. Shortly thereafter apparently after she had gotten out of her car, Several employees in the building where she was schedule to work, Heard someone say come on, come on. they next heard Ms. Atwell respond, No, you'll beat me, you'll beat me and then she screamed."

 

[Jmoose]

Andre Rand was also known to have a campsite at Baron Hirsch Cemetery, which borders Richmond Avenue... although not really by the mall, but down by Forest Avenue.

I thought it was far-fetched that Rand would have confronted an adult until I saw that sketch - no doubt in my mind that the sketch is of Rand... but I don't know who provided the info for the sketch, since all the documentation that is with it states that nobody saw anyone. So I'm confused.

I think it's possible-his preferred prey might be a child, but who's to say what he would do when opportunity presented itself? I don't think he was afraid of adult women-just didn't prefer them.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think it's possible-his preferred prey might be a child, but who's to say what he would do when opportunity presented itself? I don't think he was afraid of adult women-just didn't prefer them.

I saw several cases where he was accused of involvement with an older woman, and I remember his own words (in that long post of mine) indicating that he didn't have an age preference, something to the effect of just liking "lonely women." (Citing that post for reference.) Afterward, I found some stuff that said his mother was an inpatient at Pilgrim Psychiatric Center on LI, which made me wonder if that was his "training ground." The man was truly sick, and if 3/4 of everything they say about him is true, voracious.

 

[Jmoose]

I saw several cases where he was accused of involvement with an older woman, and I remember his own words (in that long post of mine) indicating that he didn't have an age preference, something to the effect of just liking "lonely women." (Citing that post for reference.) Afterward, I found some stuff that said his mother was an inpatient at Pilgrim Psychiatric Center on LI, which made me wonder if that was his "training ground." The man was truly sick, and if 3/4 of everything they say about him is true, voracious.

Yes, I remember reading some of that stuff, too. I wonder if it's possible? Sure do wish there were a few more facts out there.

 

[alliemay]

More facts on Rand would be good, like where was he employed for those particular years. Could he have worked at the mall, the movie theater, Wagner?

 

[Saracen]

Just sitting here wondering how someone could just drop off the face of the earth to never be heard from again....

She would not have had a clue as to what to do. After SL went missing I had a big blow up with my parents. And I was the bold one of us two. I sat in the parking lot of the All night grocery store because I was afraid to go any place else. At least there were people coming and going and there were lights. So again my mind wanders to a sad, sad dark place. So much time inbetween 1975 and 2013. Life is surely different now.

What would be the state of mind behind SL if she just wanted to start a new life?[/QUOTE]

IMO If one wanted to start a new life somewhere, that would take a certain amount of planning, and it would not be a spontaneous instant thing like ' o'h I am getting out of this car with just what I am wearing and going for good'. I do not buy that. Did you get the impression in the days and weeks beforehand that she would do such a rash thing MMQC?..

 

[Saracen]

Dang those glasses
Its one of the things that there seems absolutely no explanation for

If she threw them and left the car, why didn't he return them to someone
They were prescription glasses. Did he not consider that she may need them when she returned home that night?
In everything i have read, I do not recall hearing they were broken, just thrown against the dash . .

BBM

This is the weird bit, if they were just sunglasses I could understand it, but prescription glasses do not come cheap, and to throw something that you need to see with?.. Do we have any fact other than the b/f saying that this is what happened?..