NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[alliemay]

Not that it means anything but this is what the weather was like the night she went missing.
http://www.farmersalmanac.com/weather-history/10312/1973/09/06/

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Not that it means anything but this is what the weather was like the night she went missing.
http://www.farmersalmanac.com/weather-history/10312/1973/09/06/

Wait -- didn't she disappear in 1975?

(ETA: Took me a minute, but I realized after writing the above that I could change the date on the link you sent. I was surprised to see rain, even tho it was an unseasonably warm day. For some reason I wasn't picturing that. But then, it doesn't say what TOD it rained.)

 

[Jmoose]

Thanks, Skeet

Yeah, short of a confession, or someone coming forward who saw her with someone, or remains that provide DNA evidence (would they at this date?), I'm not sure we would ever be able to answer the Rand (or random person like him) question. And yet the possibility looms, right? No answers. But your thoughts about who SL was hit home with me.

I think that they could still extract DNA from teeth at this point-not sure about bones

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I think that they could still extract DNA from teeth at this point-not sure about bones

That would be to ID the victim, right? I was thinking, DNA that could ID the killer (a way to determine, for example, if it was Rand).

 

[Jmoose]

That would be to ID the victim, right? I was thinking, DNA that could ID the killer (a way to determine, for example, if it was Rand).

Yes-To ID the victim. Did I not read with comprehension again (lol)?

 

[alliemay]

I think that they could still extract DNA from teeth at this point-not sure about bones

It still baffles me there are no dental records for her. I saw a mention of a Dr. Firestone (S.I. memory site), that was located in area of Korvettes store. I think I also posted the name of another dentist, from an obit I saw, when MMQC was joining us then, I can't remember his name now, but I asked her if she knew if this was Sylvia dentist at the time. I didn't get a reply.

Oh.. and the homeless shelter was located across from Majors Store.

Thanks for catching that GBMG, guess I thought I put in 1975.

 

[Jmoose]

Thanks, Skeet

Yeah, short of a confession, or someone coming forward who saw her with someone, or remains that provide DNA evidence (would they at this date?), I'm not sure we would ever be able to answer the Rand (or random person like him) question. And yet the possibility looms, right? No answers. But your thoughts about who SL was hit home with me.

I would tend to think that DNA evidence wouldn't likely exist anymore after all this time-even if it had existed at one time on an article of clothing. Especially if that evidence was outside in the elements for 38 years.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Yes-To ID the victim. Did I not read with comprehension again (lol)?

I would tend to think that DNA evidence wouldn't likely exist anymore after all this time-even if it had existed at one time on an article of clothing. Especially if that evidence was outside in the elements for 38 years.

LOL (re the first quote). I am sure I wasn't clear in my post

Yeah, you're probably right (re the second quote). Maybe then, the other possibility is something that belonged to the killer got buried with her? Or he touched something very protected -- for instance, i was thinking, she disappeared with her purse right? Maybe he fingered things in her wallet, put the wallet back in the purse, buried the purse with her ...

 

[rosemadderlake]

Yes there are a lot of cases where police assumed the person was a run-a-way. That's very sad. The 70's had a lot going on. The war was over, I think in 72, not sure. Boy's who came back as men. I believe in NY the drinking age was 18 at the time, I'll have to find a link for that one though. In someone's memory, "Keg parties in Great Kills park". Or "parking" in Great Kills park. There was the disco scene as you mention, and some sort of sexual revolution all thought I'm not really sure what that means. Experimenting I guess with different lifestyles.

I also do not see Sylvia as a "flower child". But I also see her as someone who may have been, at some times anyway, the follower not the leader, but still not straying to far away from what she felt comfortable with.

Bbm: Skeet, you are right; it was the Christmas bombings in 1972 that led to the Paris Peace Accord and cease fire in Jan 1973.

1965-1967 Escalation Viet Nam
January 1968 - Tet Offensive
March 1968 - My Lai Massacre
April 1970 - Invasion of Cambodia
February 1971 - Invasion of Laos
December 1972 Christmas bombings Hanoi and Haiphong
Jan. 1973 -Paris Peace Accords – Cease Fire, US ground troop withdrawal
April 1975 -Fall of Saigon, South Vietnam surrenders to North Vietnam, US presence withdrawal

- While Wagner may not have been a political epicenter of campus protest and unrest like Columbia University, the universities were the pulse points of all things political and several movements in the 60’s and 70’s. I think the early 70’s was post flower child, but issues of social conscience weighed heavily and shaped culture. I wish we knew more about her time, her thoughts and experiences at school. -Such a different time.

- I came across the Navy Military Library with a Navy Deployment Map of important deployed units and core missions 1973-1989.

There is an outline of missions and locations on pg. 17, Table 5. Context for U.S. Navy deployment pattern, 1973-1989

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/forward_deploy.htm

Figure 5. U.S. Navy deployment, 1973-1989

 

[rosemadderlake]

There is a reason why the ones searching for Sylvia have not tried to speak to BF/F in the last few years, I think. In the case of the police, it's possibly to do with jurisdiction, and for her brother and her friend, possible legal ones. I wish we knew for sure.

I wonder why the police in the 70's were so quick to assure families that a loved one's disappearance was "voluntary and temporary"? Was it so widespread at that time? I remember a made-for-tv movie from that time called "Maybe I'll Come Home In the Spring" starring Sally Field-she was a hippie girl who left with some charismatic hippie boy. Somehow, I don't see Sylvia as that type of girl. The little we know about her seems to contradict this picture of Sylvia as a flower child (and 1975 was a little late for that anyway-on the cusp of disco). I don't understand why the police didn't tend to think that such a disappearance was suspicious?

Bbms-
Things are legally precarious in this case for sure, but I do not understand why the class of her disappearance did not change, then or now. I do think LE was inundated and hopelessly understaffed in the 70's, but also it is about what distinguishes endangered.

-On the nychiefs.org website, they cite the “Missing and Unidentified Person Investigations, Recommended Policy and Procedures” as “New” as of 2012. (The policy on the website is linked to a word document, so I hope it works and “I am referencing for educational purposes only”. (copyright smooch)

I have bolded the items which I think would indicate the need for further investigation (imo). What was different in 1975? No policy? I doubt it. If they spoke to the BF/F in 1975, then they gathered “factual information”? -But there is still, foul play, out of character, and involuntary missing which are all possible MP red flags, (Condition Type Description). -So why wasn’t Sylvia considered endangered missing after 30 days, 6 mos., 1 yr., and now 38 years later? If LE is satisfied she is not endangered, why can't we know why?



https://www.google.com/#q=www.nychiefs.org/.../Missing_UnID_Person_Inv_Model_May2012


STATE OF NEW YORK
Andrew M. Cuomo
Governor

Recommended Policy and Procedures for Missing and Unidentified Person Investigations

III. GENERAL PROVISIONS

A. This policy applies to all investigations of missing and unidentified adults, including vulnerable adults and children, including college students, abducted, abandoned, runaway, or other missing children.

1. Often, missing person investigations are initiated when a person does not arrive at a destination as expected, e.g. juvenile or young adult at a school function, concert, social event, etc.

2. This policy cannot anticipate every potential scenario and establish special procedures for what may be a temporarily overdue person.

3. Officers must be guided by common sense and an evaluation of the facts and circumstances of each instance when undertaking a missing person investigation.

B. To initiate a successful investigation, the first responding personnel must focus on quickly gathering as much factual information as possible and safeguard potential evidence.

C. The accurate and comprehensive collection of information and personal descriptors entered in a timely manner into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) database generally facilitates a successful resolution to the missing and unidentified person investigation.

D. Questions concerning parental custody occasionally arise in relation to missing children/adolescent incidents. Even under circumstances where custody issues have not been formally established or resolved, this department will accept and investigate all reports of missing children/adolescents, including cases where it can be shown that the child/children/adolescent(s) have (has) been removed, without explanation, from his/her/their usual place of residence.

1. Reporting persons shall be encouraged to obtain clarification of legal custody as soon as possible to assist in the investigation.


IV. DEFINITIONS & RESOURCES
Condition Type Description
• Disaster Victim: A person of any age who is missing after a catastrophe.
• Disabled: A person of any age who is missing and under proven physical disability subjecting himself/herself to personal and immediate danger.
• Endangered: A person of any age who is missing under circumstances indicating that his/her physical safety may be in danger.
• Foul Play/Life Threatening: Child or adult is reported missing and the circumstances give rise to believe the following;
• Foul play may be involved
• The person is a danger to self or others (due to mental, physical or emotional conditions
•The disappearance is out of character for the person and no known reason can be determined
• Involuntary: A person of any age who is missing under circumstances indicating that the disappearance may not have been voluntary, i.e., abduction or kidnapping.
• Juvenile: A person under the age of 18 who is missing and not declared emancipated by the law and does not meet the entry criteria set forth in above listed condition types.
• Other: Child or adult who is reported missing but there are insufficient facts to determine the circumstances.
• Vulnerable Adult: A person 18 years or older who is missing and has a cognitive impairment, mental disability or brain disorder and there it is believed the missing individual is at a credible risk of harm. *Because this Missing Person Condition exists only in the eJusticeNY IJ Portal, the record will default to Disabled when uploaded to NCIC.
• Acquaintance Abduction: Child who is taken or abducted against their will by a known person to the child or family.
• Adult Federally Required Entry: Title 42, United States code (USC), Section 5779 (a), states that agencies are required to enter records into the NCIC Missing Person File for missing individuals under the age of 21. In order to comply with this federal law (Suzanne’s Law) the Missing Person Circumstance of Adult Federally Required Entry is used.
• Circumstances Unknown: A child who is reported missing but there are insufficient facts to determine the circumstances.
• Familial Abduction: A child who is taken, detained, concealed, enticed away, or retained by a parent/family member or person at the request of the parent.
• Lost/Wandered Away: A child who is reported to have strayed or wandered away and whose whereabouts is unknown.
• Runaway: A child under 18 years of age who is reported missing but has left of their own free will or has been rejected or “thrown away” by their family.
• Stranger Abduction: A child who is taken or abducted against their will by an unknown person or a known person who is not a family member.

 

[Jmoose]

Bbms-
Things are legally precarious in this case for sure, but I do not understand why the class of her disappearance did not change, then or now. I do think LE was inundated and hopelessly understaffed in the 70's, but also it is about what distinguishes endangered.

-On the nychiefs.org website, they cite the “Missing and Unidentified Person Investigations, Recommended Policy and Procedures” as “New” as of 2012. (The policy on the website is linked to a word document, so I hope it works and “I am referencing for educational purposes only”. (copyright smooch)

I have bolded the items which I think would indicate the need for further investigation (imo). What was different in 1975? No policy? I doubt it. If they spoke to the BF/F in 1975, then they gathered “factual information”? -But there is still, foul play, out of character, and involuntary missing which are all possible MP red flags, (Condition Type Description). -So why wasn’t Sylvia considered endangered missing after 30 days, 6 mos., 1 yr., and now 38 years later? If LE is satisfied she is not endangered, why can't we know why?



https://www.google.com/#q=www.nychiefs.org/.../Missing_UnID_Person_Inv_Model_May2012


STATE OF NEW YORK
Andrew M. Cuomo
Governor

Recommended Policy and Procedures for Missing and Unidentified Person Investigations

III. GENERAL PROVISIONS

A. This policy applies to all investigations of missing and unidentified adults, including vulnerable adults and children, including college students, abducted, abandoned, runaway, or other missing children.

1. Often, missing person investigations are initiated when a person does not arrive at a destination as expected, e.g. juvenile or young adult at a school function, concert, social event, etc.

2. This policy cannot anticipate every potential scenario and establish special procedures for what may be a temporarily overdue person.

3. Officers must be guided by common sense and an evaluation of the facts and circumstances of each instance when undertaking a missing person investigation.

B. To initiate a successful investigation, the first responding personnel must focus on quickly gathering as much factual information as possible and safeguard potential evidence.

C. The accurate and comprehensive collection of information and personal descriptors entered in a timely manner into the National Crime Information Center (NCIC) database generally facilitates a successful resolution to the missing and unidentified person investigation.

D. Questions concerning parental custody occasionally arise in relation to missing children/adolescent incidents. Even under circumstances where custody issues have not been formally established or resolved, this department will accept and investigate all reports of missing children/adolescents, including cases where it can be shown that the child/children/adolescent(s) have (has) been removed, without explanation, from his/her/their usual place of residence.

1. Reporting persons shall be encouraged to obtain clarification of legal custody as soon as possible to assist in the investigation.


IV. DEFINITIONS & RESOURCES
Condition Type Description
• Disaster Victim: A person of any age who is missing after a catastrophe.
• Disabled: A person of any age who is missing and under proven physical disability subjecting himself/herself to personal and immediate danger.
• Endangered: A person of any age who is missing under circumstances indicating that his/her physical safety may be in danger.
• Foul Play/Life Threatening: Child or adult is reported missing and the circumstances give rise to believe the following;
• Foul play may be involved
• The person is a danger to self or others (due to mental, physical or emotional conditions
•The disappearance is out of character for the person and no known reason can be determined
• Involuntary: A person of any age who is missing under circumstances indicating that the disappearance may not have been voluntary, i.e., abduction or kidnapping.
• Juvenile: A person under the age of 18 who is missing and not declared emancipated by the law and does not meet the entry criteria set forth in above listed condition types.
• Other: Child or adult who is reported missing but there are insufficient facts to determine the circumstances.
• Vulnerable Adult: A person 18 years or older who is missing and has a cognitive impairment, mental disability or brain disorder and there it is believed the missing individual is at a credible risk of harm. *Because this Missing Person Condition exists only in the eJusticeNY IJ Portal, the record will default to Disabled when uploaded to NCIC.
• Acquaintance Abduction: Child who is taken or abducted against their will by a known person to the child or family.
• Adult Federally Required Entry: Title 42, United States code (USC), Section 5779 (a), states that agencies are required to enter records into the NCIC Missing Person File for missing individuals under the age of 21. In order to comply with this federal law (Suzanne’s Law) the Missing Person Circumstance of Adult Federally Required Entry is used.
• Circumstances Unknown: A child who is reported missing but there are insufficient facts to determine the circumstances.
• Familial Abduction: A child who is taken, detained, concealed, enticed away, or retained by a parent/family member or person at the request of the parent.
• Lost/Wandered Away: A child who is reported to have strayed or wandered away and whose whereabouts is unknown.
• Runaway: A child under 18 years of age who is reported missing but has left of their own free will or has been rejected or “thrown away” by their family.
• Stranger Abduction: A child who is taken or abducted against their will by an unknown person or a known person who is not a family member.

Thanks for posting this, Rose. The bolded portions seem to be the most significant in Sylvia's case. This appears to be a recent definition for missing persons, and it makes me wonder what existed back in 1975. I was told by the detective with whom I had a conversation, that Sylvia's file was very thin, and that there was no homicide file-not really news to any of us, but as you said, why has her classification never changed since that time to at least reflect something more than at least "she used to be here but now she's not". I suppose that could be because there has never been physical or witness evidence that she could be classified as "involuntary missing". It would be difficult for me to believe that the cold case detectives think she is just out there someplace, either oblivious to her brother's search, or intentionally staying away. My uneducated guess is that they think she is dead but because of a lack of anything concrete, cannot change her classification until something else is found. I am not sure why her brother's insistence that this is out of character for her wouldn't have compelled the police to do something, since the above description says it should have. I don't believe that the investigators now believe she wasn't endangered in any way-but they did at the beginning, and that's what drove them not to investigate

 

[Jmoose]

It still baffles me there are no dental records for her. I saw a mention of a Dr. Firestone (S.I. memory site), that was located in area of Korvettes store. I think I also posted the name of another dentist, from an obit I saw, when MMQC was joining us then, I can't remember his name now, but I asked her if she knew if this was Sylvia dentist at the time. I didn't get a reply.

Oh.. and the homeless shelter was located across from Majors Store.

Thanks for catching that GBMG, guess I thought I put in 1975.

is it just that no dental records exist anymore, or did she never go to the dentist? If she never went, how does anybody know she had no cavities? In the photos, she appeared to have beautiful teeth, but I wonder if they were as perfect as described?

 

[alliemay]

No cavities would suggest that she had been to a dentist, I for one would not look into someone's mouth and say, "yep, your good, no cavities," because I am not a dentist. I would think even before she came to America she would have seen a dentist in Germany. Her father was in the service, I'm sure the military would have had some insurance for the family. If so did the military expect you to go to their approved doctor's and dentist's. Maybe the family should check with the military to see if they have any records, dentist or doctor records.

Jmoose, the file is thin but I'm sure there is more than one page right? Thanks for asking questions it helps.

 

[Jmoose]

No cavities would suggest that she had been to a dentist, I for one would not look into someone's mouth and say, "yep, your good, no cavities," because I am not a dentist. I would think even before she came to America she would have seen a dentist in Germany. Her father was in the service, I'm sure the military would have had some insurance for the family. If so did the military expect you to go to their approved doctor's and dentist's. Maybe the family should check with the military to see if they have any records, dentist or doctor records.

Jmoose, the file is thin but I'm sure there is more than one page right? Thanks for asking questions it helps.

Skeet-I don't necessarily think there is more than one page. If the police definitely spoke to BF/F, then I guess there would be, because the police report doesn't indicate it, and so that info would have to be on a second page, but we just don't know for certain. I would like to think that LE did talk to him...why wouldn't they want to, after all? But we are speculating, since there isn't much that is public. I wish there could be more interaction with our VIs-would Sylvia's brother have been able to ask LE if they were able to question him, for example?

I would think that her brother would know what dentist they went to-I suppose that the dental records do not exist because the records were destroyed? If they had requested them in 1975, they would still exist, though. So (again speculating), nobody considered the importance of dental records until around 2010, it sounds like. Darn-timing seems to be everything in this case!

I don't know about anyone else, but I can sort of see the officer taking the missing person report encouraging the Lwowskis to delay/deny publicity because she might return. I say this because a friend of my sister's, who has moments of melancholy, dropped out of sight for a little while. My cop friend said for her not to file an endangered missing report, because when and if they found and brought him in, her friend was going to be embarrassed and angry with her. This is, of course, assuming there was no really good reason to think something happened to him. I don't know-it just doesn't quite make sense to me, with the information that we have, that anyone would think that she just left for parts unknown, and in 38 years, there was no reason to look for her.

 

[alliemay]

I wonder why opening the case was not done before Eva passed away, could have been that it was just to painful for her, or she had her own ideas and didn't think there was enough evidence.

 

[Jmoose]

I wonder the same thing, too. I wonder if Sylvia's brother may have wanted to wait until after his parents were gone to pursue it-the problem is that waiting has made it nearly impossible to do anything about it-many of the police from 1975 have retired or died, and the ADA who tried to help MMQC can't be located. It's very frustrating

 

[rosemadderlake]

-All edgy romanticism for New York City in the 70’s aside – by my memory it was a dangerous place back then; you really had to know where to go and what to avoid. With the massive NYPD layoffs in 1975, I would guess that tracking down “missing or runaway adults of legal age” was low on the priority list. How did Staten Island stack up on the dangerous place scale? Outside of being a MOB burial ground, and a couple of serial killers, was it an otherwise safe place back then? What were young women taught about protecting themselves? I remember a whole laundry list of “Dos and Don’ts”. What did this mean for Sylvia? I am not sure, but in 1975 if LE did not have all the pieces to go on, or any evidence of foul play, what could they have done? I just hope the cold case squad has more pieces than we do.

This article from July 2013 has some interesting facts about the state of affairs in NYC in the 70’s and some desolate archival photos.

New York City Used To Be A Terrifying Place
http://www.businessinsider.com/new-york-city-used-to-be-a-terrifying-place-photos-2013-7

“Fiscal problems forced the NYPD to lay off 50,000 employees in 1975. In the next five years, as cuts continued, the police force would shrink by 34%, while serious crime increased by 40%.

Gotham had an unprecedented fiscal crisis in 1975, and two years later the city descended into chaos after the power went out for 25 hours. New York City saw 1,814 homicides in 1980 — three times what we have today…”

 

[rosemadderlake]

No cavities would suggest that she had been to a dentist, I for one would not look into someone's mouth and say, "yep, your good, no cavities," because I am not a dentist. I would think even before she came to America she would have seen a dentist in Germany. Her father was in the service, I'm sure the military would have had some insurance for the family. If so did the military expect you to go to their approved doctor's and dentist's. Maybe the family should check with the military to see if they have any records, dentist or doctor records.

Jmoose, the file is thin but I'm sure there is more than one page right? Thanks for asking questions it helps.

bbm: Her brother said she had no cavities which suggests to me that her dental records are with the family but not entered into NamUs. I hope that is the case. Was her family aware that her dental records would be a potential source of identification? I think that was all they had to go on before DNA, right? If her family did not obtain her records they could well be lost in the retired dentist archive wherever that is.

I wonder if Sylvia still had her wisdom teeth? And did she ever wear braces?

I don't think dentists did full x-rays on patients with perfect teeth back then. If you had a deep cavity, tooth or wisdom tooth extraction, you were x-rayed. X-rays maybe for braces?

Yes, her dental charting would be very helpful to those tracking possible UID matches.

Skeet - bbm: good point - her Dr. records could be telling as well - any fractures, appendectomy, etc..

 

[rosemadderlake]

Skeet-I don't necessarily think there is more than one page. If the police definitely spoke to BF/F, then I guess there would be, because the police report doesn't indicate it, and so that info would have to be on a second page, but we just don't know for certain. I would like to think that LE did talk to him...why wouldn't they want to, after all? But we are speculating, since there isn't much that is public. I wish there could be more interaction with our VIs-would Sylvia's brother have been able to ask LE if they were able to question him, for example?

I would think that her brother would know what dentist they went to-I suppose that the dental records do not exist because the records were destroyed? If they had requested them in 1975, they would still exist, though. So (again speculating), nobody considered the importance of dental records until around 2010, it sounds like. Darn-timing seems to be everything in this case!

I don't know about anyone else, but I can sort of see the officer taking the missing person report encouraging the Lwowskis to delay/deny publicity because she might return. I say this because a friend of my sister's, who has moments of melancholy, dropped out of sight for a little while. My cop friend said for her not to file an endangered missing report, because when and if they found and brought him in, her friend was going to be embarrassed and angry with her. This is, of course, assuming there was no really good reason to think something happened to him. I don't know-it just doesn't quite make sense to me, with the information that we have, that anyone would think that she just left for parts unknown, and in 38 years, there was no reason to look for her.

I think about this too - is there a missing piece, is there someone else she may have gone to, someone who was considered a factor in her life and her mom didn't want to falsely accuse her fiance? Someone else who cannot be sleuthed here? Or, was there a history of arguments, volatile love, with someone who cannot be sleuthed here?

It is the missing piece and the cannot be sleuthed here that leaves us in the land of speculations. Wonder if someone who knew her could find a way to couch the information and provide a clue?

 

[Jmoose]

I just sent a request to NJSP to consider Sylvia in a case in East Orange NJ-a woman's skull was found in 2001 at a demolition site, and the timing could possibly concur. I doubt that the skull belongs to her, and although NAMUS doesn't have dental records, the family might, so...that could make the comparison pretty quick. Figured I'd think outside of the state of NY, and it really isn't that far from Staten Island. We'll see