NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[alliemay]

Skeet-I think I recall that she got out of the car on Richmond Avenue. When I have a chance, I'll see if I can find where I saw that.

Yes I think you are correct.......MMQC did you have a car?

 

[epiphany]

Skeet-I think I recall that she got out of the car on Richmond Avenue. When I have a chance, I'll see if I can find where I saw that.

He told MMQC to pick Sylvia up on Richmond Ave. (BBM):

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #2


BF/F drove up in front of my house then asked me to go pick her up at bus on Rich. Ave. Then drove off. I don't recall him even going to the parents house that night. No time even to ask about fight he just drove off.

 

[epiphany]

Yes I think you are correct.......MMQC did you have a car?

Yes, I believe MMQC has said as much.

MMQC's father drove that evening, while MMQC looked for Sylvia as he drove (Don't know whose car was driven that eve.).

 

[epiphany]

Wonder whether or not other GFs or friends of Sylvia had ever been asked by either Sylvia or others to pick her up when she was upset before?

My gut tells me Yes.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Wonder whether or not other GFs or friends of Sylvia had ever been asked by either Sylvia or others to pick her up when she was upset before?

My gut tells me Yes.

El looked for Sylvia at Wagner after her disappearance--because it wasn’t the first time Sylvia went to Wagner to “cool off”, or just get away? She thought Sylvia was alive for many years, and her best GF knew where she was. -Wonder who else EL believed knew about Sylvia’s whereabouts?

 

[rosemadderlake]

How close was the bus station to the mall?

Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphany View Post
What was the location of the bus stop, and where does the bus travel to?

MMQC
There were several bus stops she could have waited at for a bus to come. One side of the street the bus would have gone North, away from home toward Wagner, The other side would have gone south toward home. Only about 6-7 miles to home.

Just not sure of the time line from the BF/F. My home
10-ish. Movie time? Picked up from home 6-7-ish? Long time in between. Even movie would not have been long either? Most busses just made giant circles around SI.
When I search my memory my mind travels to Farrels? Ice Cream Parlor/restaurant. It was a favorite after a movie.

Post 737 thread #1 Epiphany /MMQC

...Since we are revisiting the bus stop, I was curious as well. I wonder where the phone booths were located at the time, too. I am sure one would be located in the ice cream parlor.

 

[alliemay]

I was thinking of the bus stop, because what IF she did make it there, would there be a possibility that instead of waiting for the bus someone came along that she knew and asked for a ride from that person. Just thinking of all possibilities. So yes, I guess I would like to know what other friends she had at that time.

 

[Jmoose]

I was thinking of the bus stop, because what IF she did make it there, would there be a possibility that instead of waiting for the bus someone came along that she knew and asked for a ride from that person. Just thinking of all possibilities. So yes, I guess I would like to know what other friends she had at that time.

There are many different possibilities...what I struggle with is the notion that it seems as if she had no deep friendships aside from that with MMQC, since nobody else has tried to locate her, as far as any member of her family knows, and they haven't come here. It seems as if we have come full circle again. So, let's list the possibilities, in no particular order of importance:

1)suicide-frequently, people who commit suicide are also sending a message to someone else by doing this, and wouldn't likely hide themselves to do it

2)while waiting at the bus, a ride was offered by either an acquaintance or a friendly stranger, who then harmed her

3)BF/F and Sylvia had a physical altercation, resulting in her death and disappearance

4)BF/F and Sylvia broke up and Sylvia got out of the car, and after that, she tried returning home by running through the Greenspace area because she was afraid to stand at the bus stop alone at night, resulting in an accidental demise

5)She may have been a victim of a hit and run driver who took off with her body, to dispose of it elsewhere

6)She may have been a victim of the serial killer, Andre Rand, or another unknown thrill killer

7)She may have left to start a new life somewhere else.

Any other thoughts or possibilities? Maybe we can put our heads together again and narrow down to what's most likely.

 

[epiphany]

snipped

Rose:

...No date was set for the wedding, no church, no plan to live together for a while (test out the waters) as many young people were doing. So, what were their plans, I wonder? -Was she going to stay at home?

MMQC:

It's a mystery to me!

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #2


Sylvia's BF/MMQC does not know about details surrounding Sylvia's wedding or career/job plans.

Did Sylvia know that MMQC was planning her elopement, going to look for an apartment, purchase furniture, etc? Wonder how she felt about it.

 

[epiphany]

There are many different possibilities...what I struggle with is the notion that it seems as if she had no deep friendships aside from that with MMQC, since nobody else has tried to locate her, as far as any member of her family knows, and they haven't come here...

RSMB & BBM

It's taken me awhile to understand that Sylvia's other friendships from WC must have been shared by her BF/F. The WC and WC Band friendships, the Pool Party attendees>these may have been BF/F's friends also and connected to him...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

There are many different possibilities...what I struggle with is the notion that it seems as if she had no deep friendships aside from that with MMQC, since nobody else has tried to locate her, as far as any member of her family knows, and they haven't come here. It seems as if we have come full circle again. So, let's list the possibilities, in no particular order of importance:

1)suicide-frequently, people who commit suicide are also sending a message to someone else by doing this, and wouldn't likely hide themselves to do it

2)while waiting at the bus, a ride was offered by either an acquaintance or a friendly stranger, who then harmed her

3)BF/F and Sylvia had a physical altercation, resulting in her death and disappearance

4)BF/F and Sylvia broke up and Sylvia got out of the car, and after that, she tried returning home by running through the Greenspace area because she was afraid to stand at the bus stop alone at night, resulting in an accidental demise

5)She may have been a victim of a hit and run driver that was never identified

6)She may have been a victim of the serial killer, Andre Rand, or another unknown thrill killer

7)She may have left to start a new life somewhere else.

Any other thoughts or possibilities? Maybe we can put our heads together again and narrow down to what's most likely.

Nicely done, JMoose. Very thought provoking. I think we can eliminate #5, because there would have been a body ... unless you take away the "run" part and add that whoever did it cleaned up after themselves, hid the body -- right? Otherwise the body would tell the story? Maybe the same with #4?

I was thinking that the thing that would keep us from narrowing it down is the very real possibility of another option -- "other." IOW, something not on our radar at all. But the way you've generalized the options, you may have covered all the bases. I have to think about this a little more.

BBM: I think we have to remember that she was only 22 and she's been described as shy. In my experience, shy kids often latch on to one friendship and sort of socialize though that person -- the friend acts as a kind of social liaison and often even speaks for the shy person when they are too spooked by a situation. Many shy people become less shy as they get older, so deeper friendships are more likely later in life. SL may have made some friends in college, but the two serious relationships she had from sophomore year through senior year may have either filled her need for closeness or made it hard for her, time-wise, to bond more deeply with these other college girls. Also, the abortion might have made her cling more to MMQC, rather than trust any new friends with that kind of confidence. And commuting to college can put a girl on the outside of things -- time spent together in the dorms, navigating campus, going to dorm parties -- hanging out together in the wee hours -- that's when those strong friendships form, IMO. If you are not there for that, you don't share the little intimacies those friendships are made of. As someone who grew progressively less shy until about the age of 30 (when I was officially "over it"), most of my deep, true friendships were formed after college.

It's just one perspective. She could have mystery friends who are just not surfacing. Or she could not. I could see it either way.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

RSMB & BBM

It's taken me awhile to understand that Sylvia's other friendships from WC must have been shared by her BF/F. The WC and WC Band friendships, the Pool Party attendees>these may have been BF/F's friends also and connected to him...

I agree with this and think it's what could have made it easier for a shy Sylvia to hang out with a group, which shy people often prefer not to do. In this vein, the BF/F could have become the "social liaison" type friend, and SL would stay on the outside. I think Epiph is suggesting, at least in part, that being "his" friends might make them not speak up after the disappearance -- a distinct possibility. I am adding that being "his" friends might also mean she never really got close to them. (Still another possibility: It could also have been a couples crowd, rather than a mixed group that hung around together.)

 

[Jmoose]

Nicely done, JMoose. Very thought provoking. I think we can eliminate #5, because there would have been a body ... unless you take away the "run" part and add that whoever did it cleaned up after themselves, hid the body -- right? Otherwise the body would tell the story? Maybe the same with #4?

I was thinking that the thing that would keep us from narrowing it down is the very real possibility of another option -- "other." IOW, something not on our radar at all. But the way you've generalized the options, you may have covered all the bases. I have to think about this a little more.

BBM: I think we have to remember that she was only 22 and she's been described as shy. In my experience, shy kids often latch on to one friendship and sort of socialize though that person -- the friend acts as a kind of social liaison and often even speaks for the shy person when they are too spooked by a situation. Many shy people become less shy as they get older, so deeper friendships are more likely later in life. SL may have made some friends in college, but the two serious relationships she had from sophomore year through senior year may have either filled her need for closeness or made it hard for her, time-wise, to bond more deeply with these other college girls. Also, the abortion might have made her cling more to Mary, rather than trust any new friends with that kind of confidence. And commuting to college can put a girl on the outside of things -- time spent together in the dorms, navigating campus, going to dorm parties -- hanging out together in the wee hours -- that's when those strong friendships form, IMO. If you are not there for that, you don't share the little intimacies those friendships are made of. As someone who grew progressively less shy until about the age of 30 (when I was officially "over it"), most of my deep, true friendships were formed after college.

It's just one perspective. She could have mystery friends who are just not surfacing. Or she could not. I could see it either way.

Thanks-I subsequently edited my #5 to reflect the thought about a body. As for #4, it was suggested to me, too, that the Greenspace might be a place where it's surprisingly thickly wooded and swampy, and nearly impossible to find a body, even if you were looking for it.

 

[epiphany]

I agree with this and think it's what could have made it easier for a shy Sylvia to hang out with a group, which shy people often prefer not to do. In this vein, the BF/F could have become the "social liaison" type friend, and SL would stay on the outside. I think Epiph is suggesting, at least in part, that being "his" friends might make them not speak up after the disappearance -- a distinct possibility. I am adding that being "his" friends might also mean she never really got close to them. (Still another possibility: It could also have been a couples crowd, rather than a mixed group that hung around together.)

Yes, loyalty or in the very least, a staying-out-of-it attitude.

But...Sylvia was introduced to BF/F by a WC band member

and Mom/EL did go to the WC area to look for her daughter that very evening. On the following day, both Mom & MMQC went to the floor of the WC Sorority.

I'll bet another WC female was dating a member of SL's BF/F's group.

WC sorority and band members might be able to shed some light here.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Thanks-I subsequently edited my #5 to reflect the thought about a body. As for #4, it was suggested to me, too, that the Greenspace might be a place where it's surprisingly thickly wooded and swampy, and nearly impossible to find a body, even if you were looking for it.

BBM, I wonder then if this would lead to "accident" or if it could be merged with a foul play option. To choose to run through vegetation that dense suggests "flight" to me, with someone in pursuit. Otherwise, there's nothing "short" about that shortcut, and if she was afraid at the bus stop, I would think she'd look for a more direct way home. Just thinking out loud.

OT, but the scenario is intriguing. It reminds me of a time in high school when a GF and I were walking home from a dance, and a car with a creepy dude driving seemed to be dogging us. We bolted through yards in a panic, even getting hung up on a fence we couldn't see in the dark. Comical after the fact, but truly scary in the moment. Nothing could have made me run through those dark yards if I wasn't afraid of something scarier.

 

[Jmoose]

Nicely done, JMoose. Very thought provoking. I think we can eliminate #5, because there would have been a body ... unless you take away the "run" part and add that whoever did it cleaned up after themselves, hid the body -- right? Otherwise the body would tell the story? Maybe the same with #4?

I was thinking that the thing that would keep us from narrowing it down is the very real possibility of another option -- "other." IOW, something not on our radar at all. But the way you've generalized the options, you may have covered all the bases. I have to think about this a little more.

BBM: I think we have to remember that she was only 22 and she's been described as shy. In my experience, shy kids often latch on to one friendship and sort of socialize though that person -- the friend acts as a kind of social liaison and often even speaks for the shy person when they are too spooked by a situation. Many shy people become less shy as they get older, so deeper friendships are more likely later in life. SL may have made some friends in college, but the two serious relationships she had from sophomore year through senior year may have either filled her need for closeness or made it hard for her, time-wise, to bond more deeply with these other college girls. Also, the abortion might have made her cling more to Mary, rather than trust any new friends with that kind of confidence. And commuting to college can put a girl on the outside of things -- time spent together in the dorms, navigating campus, going to dorm parties -- hanging out together in the wee hours -- that's when those strong friendships form, IMO. If you are not there for that, you don't share the little intimacies those friendships are made of. As someone who grew progressively less shy until about the age of 30 (when I was officially "over it"), most of my deep, true friendships were formed after college.

It's just one perspective. She could have mystery friends who are just not surfacing. Or she could not. I could see it either way.

RSMB & BBM

It's taken me awhile to understand that Sylvia's other friendships from WC must have been shared by her BF/F. The WC and WC Band friendships, the Pool Party attendees>these may have been BF/F's friends also and connected to him...

This could be true, making the pool party, where BF/F was not present, much more stressful for Sylvia. But why would she schedule a party that he couldn't/wouldn't attend? Possibly he had an unexpected problem, and at the last minute, couldn't attend. Still, can it be possible that not a single one of those people have never wondered what became of her? In a relatively close circle as this may have been, there must have been some talk about Sylvia's disappearance, yes? Maybe I am the nosy sort, but I might have googled the name of an acquaintance from college that disappeared-and possibly ended up here at Websleuths (this is why the video was a problem, right?). I wonder why nobody's wondered?

 

[epiphany]

This could be true, making the pool party, where BF/F was not present, much more stressful for Sylvia. But why would she schedule a party that he couldn't/wouldn't attend? Possibly he had an unexpected problem, and at the last minute, couldn't attend. Still, can it be possible that not a single one of those people have never wondered what became of her? In a relatively close circle as this may have been, there must have been some talk about Sylvia's disappearance, yes? Maybe I am the nosy sort, but I might have googled the name of an acquaintance from college that disappeared-and possibly ended up here at Websleuths (this is why the video was a problem, right?). I wonder why nobody's wondered?

RBBM

Ur first question:

IMO, No.

Ur second question:

IMO, Yes.

 

[rosemadderlake]

RSMB & BBM

It's taken me awhile to understand that Sylvia's other friendships from WC must have been shared by her BF/F. The WC and WC Band friendships, the Pool Party attendees>these may have been BF/F's friends also and connected to him...

-I think the BF/F would have had a group of friends from a different college, and he was three years older than SL. Yes seems the mutual connections are the musical ones; Wagner band, SI Orchestra.

Bbm: I wonder about the sorority though which would have been a part of her daily experience at school as well as socially important. So, was the pool party important to SL as a couple’s event? If so, why wasn’t her BF/F there? -Was there fall out over that?

I also think SL may have had friends in the biology department, or another area of interest at school. These connections take on a heightened meaning upon graduation; those you stay in touch with, those you miss, those who miss you.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

This could be true, making the pool party, where BF/F was not present, much more stressful for Sylvia. But why would she schedule a party that he couldn't/wouldn't attend? Possibly he had an unexpected problem, and at the last minute, couldn't attend. Still, can it be possible that not a single one of those people have never wondered what became of her? In a relatively close circle as this may have been, there must have been some talk about Sylvia's disappearance, yes? Maybe I am the nosy sort, but I might have googled the name of an acquaintance from college that disappeared-and possibly ended up here at Websleuths (this is why the video was a problem, right?). I wonder why nobody's wondered?

BBM1: Good point! She could totally have been on edge for that reason.

BBM2: Well, by definition, they had graduated and could have been dispersing far and wide for new lives ...

It does seem like someone would have heard something. But then, who did they hear it from? The BF/F seems to assume (from the quote in my latest Q to MMQC), that SL had "taken off." Is that the story the friends heard? It could have sounded like an adventure to them. Maybe someone thought, "Good for her! She's too young to get married!" Or "That b___! I can't believe she did that to him!" End of story for some ...

We know from MMQC that some of them heard it from her. But if they were leaving for new lives, and weren't very close to her ... would they have kept up with what was happening? "No publicity" meant no news articles for their parents to clip and mail to them. And now ... almost 40 years later ... where are they now? What happened to them? Usually this kind of news travels thanks to friends who stay in touch. And since MMQC barely knew them ... who or what is the link?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

-I think the BF/F would have had a group of friends from a different college, and he was three years older than SL. Yes seems the mutual connections are the musical ones; Wagner band, SI Orchestra.

Bbm: I wonder about the sorority though which would have been a part of her daily experience at school as well as socially important. So, was the pool party important to SL as a couple’s event? If so, why wasn’t her BF/F there? -Was there fall out over that?

I also think SL may have had friends in the biology department, or another area of interest at school. These connections take on a heightened meaning upon graduation; those you stay in touch with, those you miss, those who miss you.

BBM1: I suspect he had friends in the high school marching band, spanning multiple grades, who went to WC and were in the marching band with SL, even though he was at NYU. Thus the matchmaking by a third party who knew them both? Right?

BBM2: If this were true, I would expect a warmer reception to Eva and MMQC the next morning ... surely SL would have known some of the girls in lower grades. Was the "sorority floor" a dorm? If so, there could have been some division between those who lived there and commuters there as well.

BBM3: Yeah, I think you're right about that, Rose. This would probably not have been limited to bandies. That still doesn't mean any of them were "close" though. It also seems late for a graduation party to me ... I guess it's because so many WC students live on SI? In most colleges, no grads would still be around by August.