NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[Jmoose]

BBM, I wonder then if this would lead to "accident" or if it could be merged with a foul play option. To choose to run through vegetation that dense suggests "flight" to me, with someone in pursuit. Otherwise, there's nothing "short" about that shortcut, and if she was afraid at the bus stop, I would think she'd look for a more direct way home. Just thinking out loud.

OT, but the scenario is intriguing. It reminds me of a time in high school when a GF and I were walking home from a dance, and a car with a creepy dude driving seemed to be dogging us. We bolted through yards in a panic, even getting hung up on a fence we couldn't see in the dark. Comical after the fact, but truly scary in the moment. Nothing could have made me run through those dark yards if I wasn't afraid of something scarier.

This was sort of where I was going...either she was afraid of BF/F, or someone else frightened her, and her only option was to run where she shouldn't have, to get away. Certainly not the best way home, but the only foreseeable option, that turned out to be a bad one.

 

[alliemay]

There are many different possibilities...what I struggle with is the notion that it seems as if she had no deep friendships aside from that with MMQC, since nobody else has tried to locate her, as far as any member of her family knows, and they haven't come here. It seems as if we have come full circle again. So, let's list the possibilities, in no particular order of importance:

1)suicide-frequently, people who commit suicide are also sending a message to someone else by doing this, and wouldn't likely hide themselves to do it

2)while waiting at the bus, a ride was offered by either an acquaintance or a friendly stranger, who then harmed her

3)BF/F and Sylvia had a physical altercation, resulting in her death and disappearance

4)BF/F and Sylvia broke up and Sylvia got out of the car, and after that, she tried returning home by running through the Greenspace area because she was afraid to stand at the bus stop alone at night, resulting in an accidental demise

5)She may have been a victim of a hit and run driver who took off with her body, to dispose of it elsewhere

6)She may have been a victim of the serial killer, Andre Rand, or another unknown thrill killer

7)She may have left to start a new life somewhere else.

Any other thoughts or possibilities? Maybe we can put our heads together again and narrow down to what's most likely.

I can't see #1, all the others I can imagine. In #4 you mention the Greenspace, sorry if I missed a post from you that may have contained more information about this area. If you get a chance maybe you can find the post again so I can read up on it. TIA #5 might be at the bottom of my list with #1. Thanks for the organizing some thoughts.

 

[alliemay]

Yes, loyalty or in the very least, a staying-out-of-it attitude.

But...Sylvia was introduced to BF/F by a WC band member

and Mom/EL did go to the WC area to look for her daughter that very evening. On the following day, both Mom & MMQC went to the floor of the WC Sorority.

I'll bet another WC female was dating a member of SL's BF/F's group.

WC sorority and band members might be able to shed some light here.

I wish we could find out who the sorority and band members were....another thought, it is possible that Sylvia latched on to some of the BF/F's friends but how would that explain the BF/F not being there at her graduation party. I just have the feeling that the people she invited were more her friends than his. For me anyway, graduating would be a major event in my like that I would want my future husband to attend. If she had latched on to only his friends wouldn't the party have been awkward without him there? We still do not know the real reason he did not attend. MMQC said he may have had a prior musical engagement but she was not really sure.

 

[alliemay]

Quote: GBMG - BBM2: If this were true, I would expect a warmer reception to Eva and MMQC the next morning ... surely SL would have known some of the girls in lower grades. Was the "sorority floor" a dorm? If so, there could have been some division between those who lived there and commuters there as well.

I have to say this paragraph hit me with a memory. When I stopped in my husband's work place, (after his near death accident) the people who had always been friendly with me suddenly were as cold as ice. It made me feel like they were hiding something and that I had the black plague.

There may be a few reasons why the people in the dorm gave Eva and MMQC the cold shoulder. Either they did not know Sylvia well enough to give any helpful info, or care enough, or they knew something and did not want to get involved.

 

[epiphany]

I wish we could find out who the sorority and band members were....another thought, it is possible that Sylvia latched on to some of the BF/F's friends but how would that explain the BF/F not being there at her graduation party. I just have the feeling that the people she invited were more her friends than his. For me anyway, graduating would be a major event in my like that I would want my future husband to attend. If she had latched on to only his friends wouldn't the party have been awkward without him there? We still do not know the real reason he did not attend. MMQC said he may have had a prior musical engagement but she was not really sure.

It's sounds like the Pool Party may have been a pretty casual event. End of August...post-graduation ceremony, etc. IMO, those attending party from WC might have been Staten Islanders. If some were or had been WC resident students, may have been from Brooklyn and New Jersey areas.

If pool party was a graduation party in the more formal sense of the word, fiancee would have been there. MMQC's BF/F was not there either.

Believe attendees were SL's friends from college who also knew SL's BF/F and his group better than MMQC. These friends may have socialized with SL and her fiancee.

IMO, SL knows them well from WC, but they may not have been to her home in a group situation prior to this party...she "flipped her switch" in front of them because what they thought was important to her.

Wonder whether SL's brother was in attendance at the Pool Party?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I wish we could find out who the sorority and band members were....another thought, it is possible that Sylvia latched on to some of the BF/F's friends but how would that explain the BF/F not being there at her graduation party. I just have the feeling that the people she invited were more her friends than his. For me anyway, graduating would be a major event in my like that I would want my future husband to attend. If she had latched on to only his friends wouldn't the party have been awkward without him there? We still do not know the real reason he did not attend. MMQC said he may have had a prior musical engagement but she was not really sure.

BBM1: I agree with you and Rose that the *graduation party* probably wasn't limited to the BF/F's friends or only her bandmates. I just wonder how close she was to any of her friends. This is a sad thought but: Being somewhat disconnected socially can hurt you. If she had had closer connections, maybe they would be here right now. Maybe that's one of the reasons her case is unresolved? Also, it wasn't a huge party, as graduation parties go. IIRC, about a dozen? As per MMQC? Going on memory so could be wrong.

Good point re the missing BF/F. And as close as the party was to her disappearance, could her anger over his absence have helped "prime" her hair trigger response to her father? Could she still have been angry days later when she went on the date and disappeared? (I wonder if she saw him between events?)

I keep coming back to this: Why August for a graduation party?

BBM2: It seems to me that the party WAS awkward ...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Quote: GBMG - BBM2: If this were true, I would expect a warmer reception to Eva and MMQC the next morning ... surely SL would have known some of the girls in lower grades. Was the "sorority floor" a dorm? If so, there could have been some division between those who lived there and commuters there as well.

I have to say this paragraph hit me with a memory. When I stopped in my husband's work place, (after his near death accident) the people who had always been friendly with me suddenly were as cold as ice. It made me feel like they were hiding something and that I had the black plague.

There may be a few reasons why the people in the dorm gave Eva and MMQC the cold shoulder. Either they did not know Sylvia well enough to give any helpful info, or care enough, or they knew something and did not want to get involved.

Sorry about that experience with your husband.

You're really right on here. People do act like that when they don't know WTF to say! They get stiff and awkward, and it can be more about them than you. It may also be that NY attitude Epiph points to: They just didn't want to "get involved."

That said, if they knew something worth sharing, don't you think it would eat at them all these years? If they had been close to SL, don't you think they'd have broken through that by now? If I'm counting on my fingers correctly, a few weeks from now will mark the 38th anniversary of her disappearance.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Yes, loyalty or in the very least, a staying-out-of-it attitude.

But...Sylvia was introduced to BF/F by a WC band member

and Mom/EL did go to the WC area to look for her daughter that very evening. On the following day, both Mom & MMQC went to the floor of the WC Sorority.

I'll bet another WC female was dating a member of SL's BF/F's group.

WC sorority and band members might be able to shed some light here.

BBM: This isn't in my memory this way, Epiph. What makes you think this? Can you refresh me? My understanding is, acc. to (1) ASWDeerHunter's post, and (2) immortalized in our timeline:

"Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her."

Am I forgetting something?

 

[rosemadderlake]

I wonder if the sorority names (pool party guests), and other names (school, band, neighborhood, (those unthought-of here) were ever given to LE in 1975 by the Lwowski family? -Or, if not then, were names given to the cold case squad in 2010?

Was the word on the street that LE was investigating her disappearance in 1975, whether they were or not, and names had been given to the police?

Was the word on the street, or rumor that the BF/F killed her, and disposed of her body, with a police cover up in 1975?

We know of no publicity between 1975 and 2010 - NamUs 2010 and the CP maybe before that?

We know the public-relations generated now, in 2013, is being discussed on a crime-oriented forum. We know it has escalated to directly condemning the BF/F via internet media manipulation by a forum member.

We know of no other publicity, reward, alumni associations, Facebook, hometown newspapers, investigative reporter has been pursued beyond the discussion here on Websleuths.

-Trying to put myself in an objective viewpoint here: if I were a connection (close friend or acquaintance) who knew both Sylvia and her BF/F, but not their respective families and I did not believe the BF/F killed her, I would not be inclined to defend the BF/F with my opinion or reason on a crime forum. If I did believe that he did, would, or could kill her, I’d be inclined to share that with LE and remain anonymous. If I was uncertain, I would not share it on a crime oriented forum that required a verification of my identity as an insider.

I think one of the missing pieces for Sylvia, now 38 years later, is a place where friends and even acquaintances can share their memories, their grief for her family and friends; a place to put their hopes and thoughts that is neutral to her disappearance.

Sylvia lived a full life, accomplished Wagner grad, marching band, sorority, and deep relationships from family, to her childhood girlfriend, to her fiancé, and no doubt the other men who loved her. Would she be remembered as shy? I wonder. What else would be revealed? I wonder.

 

[epiphany]

BBM: This isn't in my memory this way, Epiph. What makes you think this? Can you refresh me? My understanding is, acc. to (1) ASWDeerHunter's post, and (2) immortalized in our timeline:

"Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her."

Am I forgetting something?

BBM

No, but I did!

Thanks, Gut. Yes, EL/Mom drove around the mall area that evening. The following day with MMQC, she went to the WC dorm.

 

[epiphany]

SL would have had to be a virtual loner at age 22 to have had only one friend.

She'd already had not one, but two (IMO), serious boyfriends.

Not buying it...She had other friends...They're just not speaking out publicly.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

SL would have had to be a virtual loner at age 22 to have had only one friend.

She'd already had not one, but two (IMO), serious boyfriends.

Not buying it...She had other friends...They're just not speaking out publicly.

BBM: LOL. I don't see her as a loner. It's clear that she moved with a group. I just think it's possible that she wasn't very close to any of them.

I do think she spent time on her own (music, yard animals), and in other projects (reading to the blind). But she was involved in group activities at WC (marching band). I think you get to know people on some level that way. But is that how you get close? That's the possibility I'm proposing.

As you say, she had two serious relationships, one that dragged her through emotional turmoil. To your point, MMQC has described herself and her BF, and SL and her BF/F, as spending nights one-on-one together, not group-dating. IMO, it's hard to develop a close friendship with a new GF if you spend most of your time privately with your BF.

Plus, she was a good student -- which means time spent reading, writing lab reports, etc. -- and IIRC, acc. to MMQC, the two of them spoke everyday. How much time does one person have?

People knew her, she knew people -- but what did they share? If we found her "friends" today, might they say, "I never really felt like I got to know her" or "She was super nice, but kind of private" -- "a good listener, but she never said much about herself"?

Of course, I don't know that this is true. I'm just looking at an alternative explanation for why there is so little evidence of other friendships.

Whatever happened to the site ASWDeerHunter was going to set up for sorority alums? You and I have both asked him now if he was at the graduation party -- would he at age 16 have understand the social relationships of his much older sister? Would he know who the guests, presumably all 6 years older than himself, even were? It would be very nice if he weighed in.

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM1: I agree with you and Rose that the *graduation party* probably wasn't limited to the BF/F's friends or only her bandmates. I just wonder how close she was to any of her friends. This is a sad thought but: Being somewhat disconnected socially can hurt you. If she had had closer connections, maybe they would be here right now. Maybe that's one of the reasons her case is unresolved? Also, it wasn't a huge party, as graduation parties go. IIRC, about a dozen? As per MMQC? Going on memory so could be wrong.

Good point re the missing BF/F. And as close as the party was to her disappearance, could her anger over his absence have helped "prime" her hair trigger response to her father? Could she still have been angry days later when she went on the date and disappeared? (I wonder if she saw him between events?)

I keep coming back to this: Why August for a graduation party?

BBM2: It seems to me that the party WAS awkward ...

bbm: Yes, I think all these events are connected, maybe like a domino effect. MMQC describes SL as "angry & embarrassed", not depressed. I think the BF/F could shed some light on this!

bbm: I have wondered this, too. Maybe it was a more impromptu thing? -Have a pool party before end of summer? Kids may be returning to school, too. End of August was Labor Day (Sept 1) weekend in 1975. She disappeared following Saturday, Sept 6th.

I read that Wagner is about 50/50 in state/out of state student ratio. That is a current figure. Maybe more kids stayed on Staten Island back then or moved to Brooklyn, Manhattan as it is near where the jobs and schools are... NYC is right there - so many people wanted to be in New York, I remember from those days.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Okay, quick change of subject because of a thought I had last night.

For some time, we have been speculating about the "time last seen" portion of the PR -- specifically, wondering WHO last saw her at that time. Thump to the head: Doesn't the PR answer this?!?! The PLACE last seen is the K-Mart Plaza. If the TIME last seen was when EL last saw SL, the PLACE last seen would be xx Goodall Street! These two facts have to agree!

To me, the time last seen and place last seen BOTH reflect the BF/F's tale. Therefore, the night SL disappeared, the BF/F MUST have also told EL that SL ran off at 6 PM!! They did not see a movie -- whatever it was between them that weighed so heavily forced its way out as soon as they got together and was out of hand less than an hour later.

What ELSE did the BF/F tell EL that night that we are not aware of?!

ETA: Going back to one of the things that has troubled us about the BF/F's behavior that night, this means the BF/F did not leave SL in the dark to find her way home. It was light out, and the night was young. It doesn't explain what happened to SL ... and it doesn't explain what the BF/F did between 6 and 10 ... but it does shed light on the facts as presented on the PR. Unless SL hung around the K-Mart plaza until dark, to me it also suggests that any foul play SL might have met -- whether anonymous or at the hands of someone she knew -- had to happen in broad daylight (or later and elsewhere).

 

[rosemadderlake]

Okay, quick change of subject because of a thought I had last night.

For some time, we have been speculating about the "time last seen" portion of the PR -- specifically, wondering WHO last saw her at that time. Thump to the head: Doesn't the PR answer this?!?! The PLACE last seen is the K-Mart Plaza. If the TIME last seen was when EL last saw SL, the PLACE last seen would be xx Goodall Street! These two facts have to agree!

To me, the time last seen and place last seen BOTH reflect the BF/F's tale. Therefore, the night SL disappeared, the BF/F MUST have also told EL that SL ran off at 6 PM!! They did not see a movie -- whatever it was between them that weighed so heavily forced its way out as soon as they got together and was out of hand less than an hour later.

What ELSE did the BF/F tell EL that night that we are not aware of?!

ETA: Going back to one of the things that has troubled us about the BF/F's behavior that night, this means the BF/F did not leave SL in the dark to find her way home. It was light out, and the night was young. It doesn't explain what happened to SL ... and it doesn't explain what the BF/F did between 6 and 10 ... but it does shed light on the facts as presented on the PR. Unless SL hung around the K-Mart plaza until dark, it also suggests that any other foul play she might have met had to happen in broad daylight.

GBMG - The facts of that evening are sketchy, indeed. LE was taking input from one person (time last seen) and stating where from another (hearsay place last seen)? -And you are right, they don't agree unless the BF/F said 6pm is when I last saw her.

bbm: Is there no knowledge of what the argument was about? Wouldn't he have felt obligated to explain something to her parents?

Also, something that has puzzled me in the timeline bbm below. And, if he last saw her at 6pm - why go ask MMQC to pick her up at the bus stop at 10pm?

Sat. 10 PM: BF/F shows up at MMQC’s house, tells her about fight, asks her to pick SL up from the bus stop. MMQC: “I did not know exact time of DATE. What I do know is that BF/F did say after movie they had fight she got out of the car and would take the bus home.” and “He did say they had a fight and she stormed out of the car by the mall. He seemed angry.”

10-11 PM: MMQC & her father drive around the mall area, trying to find SL, but they do not find her. MMQC: “We guessed that the bus came in the time between.”

10:30 PM: BF/F drives to SL’s residence and explains what happened. ASWDeerHunter: “BF/F returned to the house approx. 10:30 stating that during an argument Sylvia had thrown her glasses against the dash board of the car and ran off.” (MMQC: “I truly don't remember BF/F EVER going to parents home that night.” and re EL: “She never mentioned to me that BF/F ever came by.”)

10:45 PM-Midnight (?): EL searches for SL by car. ASWDeerHunter: “Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her.”

 

[epiphany]

Could the argument between SL and BF/F have been about something that did not portray SL in a positive light?

BF/F was not named, the origin of the argument is never revealed, EL/Mom believes MMQC knew where she was, EL/Mom decides upon No Publicity and no one speaks out.

Leaning towards something related to SL and the Pool Party.

Difficult for me to believe that no one knew what their argument was about. I don't buy it.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I was thinking of the bus stop, because what IF she did make it there, would there be a possibility that instead of waiting for the bus someone came along that she knew and asked for a ride from that person. Just thinking of all possibilities. So yes, I guess I would like to know what other friends she had at that time.

bbm: Skeet, this is a good a possibility as well. - IF they did see a movie, and she stormed from the car at a traffic light, he then has to keep driving. What if she sees someone she knows (from the movie theater, or ice cream parlor). Did she make a phone call? Ask for a ride and was dropped off at a destination of another friend, Wagner, another bus stop?

Imo: Running into someone you know in your hometown area movie theater on a Saturday night may be more likely than running into a serial killer.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

GBMG - The facts of that evening are sketchy, indeed. LE was taking input from one person (time last seen) and stating where from another (hearsay place last seen)? -And you are right, they don't agree unless the BF/F said 6pm is when I last saw her.

bbm: Is there no knowledge of what the argument was about? Wouldn't he have felt obligated to explain something to her parents?

Also, something that has puzzled me in the timeline bbm below. And, if he last saw her at 6pm - why go ask MMQC to pick her up at the bus stop at 10pm?

BBM: Exactly.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Could the argument between SL and BF/F have been about something that did not portray SL in a positive light?

BF/F was not named, the origin of the argument is never revealed, EL/Mom believes MMQC knew where she was, EL/Mom decides upon No Publicity and no one speaks out.

Leaning towards something related to SL and the Pool Party.

Difficult for me to believe that no one knew what their argument was about. I don't buy it.

BBM: Probably true that someone knew. However, I think the question is, who would she talk to about it? Who would she seek out? Or who might find out and intervene?

 

[epiphany]

bbm: Skeet, this is a good a possibility as well. - IF they did see a movie, and she stormed from the car at a traffic light, he then has to keep driving. What if she sees someone she knows (from the movie theater, or ice cream parlor). Did she make a phone call? Ask for a ride and was dropped off at a destination of another friend, Wagner, another bus stop?

Imo: Running into someone you know in your hometown area movie theater on a Saturday night may be more likely than running into a serial killer.

My guess is that she would have gone into Farrell's and made a phone call to a friend to pick her up.

She appears to have been driven around by others: by father to college, picked up at home by Red & by BF/F for dates, BF/F asked MMQC to pick her up that eve. Why would her GF even be asked to pick SL up that evening unless that occurred in the past?

Did she even use the SI bus system often?

Wonder if Farrell's was ever visited by the parents and/or PI with photographs of her after she disappeared?