NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[GoingByMyGut]

We know from MMQC that she had been told by EL/Mom that the PI had followed her.

Did the PI follow BF/F as well?

Did PI go to Farrell's, go to WC sorority floor/dorm?

Did EL/Mom leave any notes/a file/papers of her thoughts about SL's disappearance, who she had spoken to, copies of the PI report, etc.? IMO, Yes.

BBM: I totally think she had to have done this. My father has BINDERS of info on his father, and he never even knew him! (My g'father disappeared when my father was 9 mos. old.) Many of those papers came from his mother, who documented her efforts to find him, then he added to them with his own efforts. It just makes sense that a person would track this in writing ... memory cannot be trusted.

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM: Does she? Not if BF/F told her it happened at 6. If a BF showed up at my house saying my daughter took off like that, the first Qs out of my mouth would have been where and when.

Besides, ASWDeer Hunter said SL left the house at 5 that day. So if it was EL's "time last seen" why wouldn't 5 be the time? And why wouldn't the "place last seen" be the L home on Goodall St.? If you're saying the time the BF/F last saw SL was hearsay from LE's POV, then wouldn't the location associated with that time also be hearsay? Why would they take one piece of secondhand info and not two?

I'm not trying to be argumentative ... maybe you all don't see it the same way? To me, suddenly, the time and place last seen are locked up tight. JMO.

bbm: I guess that brings me back to this question: "And, if he last saw her at 6pm - why go ask MMQC to pick her up at the bus stop at 10pm?"

 

[GoingByMyGut]

EL/Mom didn't appear to cut MMQC any breaks early on: had PI follow her; called her to ask her to tell SL to pick up the China set; appeared at her elopement; withheld details of the evening from her, etc.

Does this sound like a woman, a Mother, who may not have behaved similarly towards BF/F? This is a strong female. I'm not convinced EL/Mom didn't say or do whatever she felt she had to with him, his family. I certainly would have...Hence, LE's use of word "harassment" (DeerHunter on radio show).

IOW, is BF/F being rude on the phone, etc. gonna stop her? Just MO: Nope. This Mother lost her entire family in Germany. Hell No, IMO.

BBM: I agree with this too. IF EL did not pursue the BF/F, it may be because she didn't believe he did it. Otherwise, I think she'd be trying to "run into" his mother at the grocery store, inventing reasons to call and talk to anyone in the house, showing up where the BF/F worked. Desperation makes you do these things. And there is no sign of that.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

bbm: I guess that brings me back to this question: "And, if he last saw her at 6pm - why go ask MMQC to pick her up at the bus stop at 10pm?"

That, as you would say, Rose, is the million dollar question, IMO. It points to a discrepancy in our timeline for which we can only speculate reasons.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

That, as you would say, Rose, is the million dollar question, IMO. It points to a discrepancy in our timeline for which we can only speculate reasons.

I probably should have edited the above post to add this but this is moving too fast for me!

The above, IMO, is one of TWO discrepancies in our timeline, BTW. The other is this:

GBMG, Thread 1, partial post, BBM:

11 PM: MMQC talks with her parents and decides not to alarm SL’s family with her concerns about SL -- “...did not want to worry SL's parents or raise a red flag if not warrented.” She calls under the guise of needing to talk to SL for personal reasons. “I called SL home stating I needed to talk to my friend. Saying that I had an issue that I had to talk to my best friend about. No matter what time.”​

MMQC, later confirming the above, says (BBM):

"I called asking to speak to SL.
EL told me that she was out with BF/F.
I said I NEEDED TO TALK TO HER NO MATTER WHAT TIME SHE CAME HOME.
EL said OK as by this point I was sort of anxious as I talked to her to get my point across."​

A few posts later MMQC adds (BBM):

"given the timing and the reaction time by my dad and I, close to 11 or there abouts"​

HOWEVER:

(1) ASWDeerHunter says that the BF/F came to the house at 10:30, so why at 11, would EL say SL "was out with BF/F"?

and

(2) ASWDeerHunter claims that after the BF/F came to the house, “Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her,” making it seem that EL would not have been home to take that call.

I am not suggesting a reason for the discrepancy. We are all free to speculate. I am merely pointing out that we have conflicting information about the 11 o'clock hour on the timeline.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I probably should have edited the above post to add this but this is moving too fast for me!

The above, IMO, is one of TWO discrepancies in our timeline, BTW. The other is this:

GBMG, Thread 1, partial post, BBM:

11 PM: MMQC talks with her parents and decides not to alarm SL’s family with her concerns about SL -- “...did not want to worry SL's parents or raise a red flag if not warrented.” She calls under the guise of needing to talk to SL for personal reasons. “I called SL home stating I needed to talk to my friend. Saying that I had an issue that I had to talk to my best friend about. No matter what time.”​

MMQC, later confirming the above, says (BBM):

"I called asking to speak to SL.
EL told me that she was out with BF/F.
I said I NEEDED TO TALK TO HER NO MATTER WHAT TIME SHE CAME HOME.
EL said OK as by this point I was sort of anxious as I talked to her to get my point across."​

A few posts later MMQC adds (BBM):

"given the timing and the reaction time by my dad and I, close to 11 or there abouts"​

HOWEVER:

(1) ASWDeerHunter says that the BF/F came to the house at 10:30, so why at 11, would EL say SL "was out with BF/F"?

and

(2) ASWDeerHunter claims that after the BF/F came to the house, “Eva then got in the car and drove around the Staten Island Mall, but didn’t see her,” making it seem that EL would not have been home to take that call.

I am not suggesting a reason for the discrepancy. We are all free to speculate. I am merely pointing out that we have conflicting information about the 11 o'clock hour on the timeline.

I wonder if the BF/F told EL that he asked MMQC to pick up SL at bus stop?

 

[alliemay]

I'd have to look, but a question I asked MMQC never was answered. I asked how she knew that Eva didn't trust her. Did Eva come right out and confront her or did MMQC hear about the mistrust and the PI following her from the "grapevine." I wonder if the PI, after following her, confronted her and asked her questions like he supposedly did with the BF/F?
If Eva confronted her personally then IMO I think Eva was the type of woman who was not afraid to speak her mind. If Eva did not confront MMQC personally, then maybe the family was not a family that talked openly about everything.

 

[Jmoose]

I wonder if the BF/F told EL that he asked MMQC to pick up SL at bus stop?

I have always thought this-making Sylvia's disappearance MMQC's problem...intentionally or not

 

[rosemadderlake]

-Something that is troubling to me is I know LE has to look at all sides, and doesn’t have to reveal anything, but wouldn’t they say, or inform Sylvia’s family that they had at least talked to, or taken a statement from the BF/F, in 1975? –In the ADA follow up, wasn’t this piece addressed by LE then?

The word on the street back 1975 would have shined a light on the BF/F and the implications, for sure. If LE did visit the BF/F (who no doubt realized the implications early on), would it explain, in part, the BF/F’s overall animosity; i.e. his statement about his mother’s ‘breakdown’, the subsequent fall out with Sylvia’s family, the treatment of MMQC in Dec. 1975, and radio silence from friends who knew both SL and the BF/F, then & today?

So not knowing any outcome of investigation, and perhaps being or feeling cut off from the Wagner/sorority/band contacts who knew them both, certainly the BF/F and his family –could this have sent EL into a quiet, not overt desperation and silence lasting for decades?–And, I don't know, the place of hope where she always believed that her daughter was alive?

I know it is felt that LE did not investigate in 1975, maybe 2010, and certainly now in 2013. – And it speaks to the lack of pursuit, or not being able to pursue the BF/F due to lack of evidence. I would imagine the cold case squad did contact or revisit the BF/F in 2010. And I wonder if they were able to shed any light on Sylvia’s disappearance, and if not, why?

 

[alliemay]

MMQC - Did you and Sylvia ever go to the Bun N Burger to eat in the mall? I am just trying to get a feel for what it was like in 1975. It must have been exciting when the mall first opened up. How about the Bauersfield Inn which specialized in German cooking? When Eva passed in 2007 were you able to make it to the service for her? Did Sylvia have family buried in the Baron Hirsch Cemetery?

 

[rosemadderlake]

EL/Mom didn't appear to cut MMQC any breaks early on: had PI follow her; called her to ask her to tell SL to pick up the China set; appeared at her elopement; withheld details of the evening from her, etc.

Does this sound like a woman, a Mother, who may not have behaved similarly towards BF/F? This is a strong female. I'm not convinced EL/Mom didn't say or do whatever she felt she had to with him, his family. I certainly would have...Hence, LE's use of word "harassment" (DeerHunter on radio show).

IOW, is BF/F being rude on the phone, etc. gonna stop her? Just MO: Nope. This Mother lost her entire family in Germany. Hell No, IMO.

bbm: IMO -I do believe this rings true, in the beginning for sure. -There is shock, disbelief, and for EL a revisiting of a past life; the toll of which is unimaginable. I also believe she and SL were a close mother and daughter relationship.

 

[Jmoose]

-Something that is troubling to me is I know LE has to look at all sides, and doesn’t have to reveal anything, but wouldn’t they say, or inform Sylvia’s family that they had at least talked to, or taken a statement from the BF/F, in 1975? –In the ADA follow up, wasn’t this piece addressed by LE then?

The word on the street back 1975 would have shined a light on the BF/F and the implications, for sure. If LE did visit the BF/F (who no doubt realized the implications early on), would it explain, in part, the BF/F’s overall animosity; i.e. his statement about his mother’s ‘breakdown’, the subsequent fall out with Sylvia’s family, the treatment of MMQC in Dec. 1975, and radio silence from friends who knew both SL and the BF/F, then & today?

So not knowing any outcome of investigation, and perhaps being or feeling cut off from the Wagner/sorority/band contacts who knew them both, ceqrtainly the BF/F and his family –could this have sent EL into a quiet, not overt desperation and silence lasting for decades?–And, I don't know, the place of hope where she always believed that her daughter was alive?

I know it is felt that LE did not investigate in 1975, maybe 2010, and certainly now in 2013. – And it speaks to the lack of pursuit, or not being able to pursue the BF/F due to lack of evidence. I would imagine the cold case squad did contact or revisit the BF/F in 2010. And I wonder if they were able to shed any light on Sylvia’s disappearance, and if not, why?

I believe that they did talk to BF/F, or tried to-he really didn't have to have much of a conversation with them, since he wasn't under arrest, and even then, what would he be under any obligation to tell them? It sometimes happens like that, and I, too, wonder if Mrs. Lwowski had contacted him, causing to become less cooperative. I have my own thoughts about how this all happened, but really, none of the options are out of the question.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

-Something that is troubling to me is I know LE has to look at all sides, and doesn’t have to reveal anything, but wouldn’t they say, or inform Sylvia’s family that they had at least talked to, or taken a statement from the BF/F, in 1975? –In the ADA follow up, wasn’t this piece addressed by LE then?

The word on the street back 1975 would have shined a light on the BF/F and the implications, for sure. If LE did visit the BF/F (who no doubt realized the implications early on), would it explain, in part, the BF/F’s overall animosity; i.e. his statement about his mother’s ‘breakdown’, the subsequent fall out with Sylvia’s family, the treatment of MMQC in Dec. 1975, and radio silence from friends who knew both SL and the BF/F, then & today?

So not knowing any outcome of investigation, and perhaps being or feeling cut off from the Wagner/sorority/band contacts who knew them both, certainly the BF/F and his family –could this have sent EL into a quiet, not overt desperation and silence lasting for decades?–And, I don't know, the place of hope where she always believed that her daughter was alive?

I know it is felt that LE did not investigate in 1975, maybe 2010, and certainly now in 2013. – And it speaks to the lack of pursuit, or not being able to pursue the BF/F due to lack of evidence. I would imagine the cold case squad did contact or revisit the BF/F in 2010. And I wonder if they were able to shed any light on Sylvia’s disappearance, and if not, why?

BBM1: To me, based on G's re-post by me above, and Epiph's re-post of ASWDH's similar summary, it sounds like they did.

BBM2: To me it would. In fact, somehow I got it in my head that MMQC told us this is what happened, but I couldn't find it anywhere. Maybe I mixed it up with G/AWSDH's posts, which do make it sound like the BF/F was questioned? That's why I posted that Q about this to MMQC a page or two ago. That would surely cause any mother a breakdown.

I know conspiracy theories abound, but putting those aside for a moment, the question burning through my mind is: What could SL's BF/F have told LE that would lead to a decision like "will not handle"? If SL ran off from the BF/F at 6, there is plenty of time between then and 10 for someone to put themselves in the middle of things. If, for example, someone told the BF/F something that made him believe SL "took off," thereby leaving him "suckered," could the BF/F have passed that on to LE? And who would that person have been? Did the person truly know something? Or did s/he have a personal agenda? What is it that turned the BF/F to anger, rather than grief, and made LE choose not to "handle"?

BBM3: Given what appear to be the respective roles of JL, Sr., and EL in the family (e.g., EL, alone, searching the mall immediately after the BB/F's visit, calling LE that night, searching WC and other areas over the next few days w MMQC, hiring a PI shortly after, and doggedly insisting that MMQC knew something), I do not see this.

I cannot begin to grasp what a person who suffers this kind of tragedy must feel. I can only go by what I see others doing in the cases I read about and my own dreadful imaginings. And what I come up with is the time for silence is when you know your child is dead. In the meantime, the force pushing you on is that they may be somewhere, need help, need to be freed, need to be found. I think it is exactly hope that has to drive you to act. JMO.

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM1: To me, based on G's re-post by me above, and Epiph's re-post of ASWDH's similar summary, it sounds like they did.

BBM2: To me it would. In fact, somehow I got it in my head that MMQC told us this is what happened, but I couldn't find it anywhere. Maybe I mixed it up with G/AWSDH's posts, which do make it sound like the BF/F was questioned? That's why I posted that Q about this to MMQC a page or two ago. That would surely cause any mother a breakdown.

I know conspiracy theories abound, but putting those aside for a moment, the question burning through my mind is: What could SL's BF/F have told LE that would lead to a decision like "will not handle"? If SL ran off from the BF/F at 6, there is plenty of time between then and 10 for someone to put themselves in the middle of things. If, for example, someone told the BF/F something that made him believe SL "took off," thereby leaving him "suckered," could the BF/F have passed that on to LE? And who would that person have been? Did the person truly know something? Or did s/he have a personal agenda? What is it that turned the BF/F to anger, rather than grief, and made LE choose not to "handle"?

BBM3: Given what appear to be the respective roles of JL, Sr., and EL in the family (e.g., EL, alone, searching the mall immediately after the BB/F's visit, calling LE that night, searching WC and other areas over the next few days w MMQC, hiring a PI shortly after, and doggedly insisting that MMQC knew something), I do not see this.

I cannot begin to grasp what a person who suffers this kind of tragedy must feel. I can only go by what I see others doing in the cases I read about and my own dreadful imaginings. And what I come up with is the time for silence is when you know your child is dead. In the meantime, the force pushing you on is that they may be somewhere, need help, need to be freed, need to be found. I think it is exactly hope that has to drive you to act. JMO.

Bbm: It would be good to have it confirmed, verified. No post that I can see from SL inner circle has said definitely, yes, we know LE contacted the BF/F in 1975. “Will not handle” has been decoded into ‘will not investigate’. It could be, but I am not sure that is correct if LE did indeed look into SL’s disappearance.

bbm: The "Will not Handle" is marked with date and time 9/7/75, 6:45. -I am not sure they would have had enough time in that window, (EL filed report 9/7/75, 6pm) to find the BF/F and take a statement. It looks like a time stamped memo on the initial intake report. It could be a call, an interdepartmental memorandum, or “no publicity”, or not classified endangered missing, or of adult age and free will, or will not investigate. For the reasons you are wondering above I would not be surprised if there was someone else who knows something else....

bbm: -This is true. And we don't know what EL or the Lwowski family did to that end over the years. Not everything in this world is publicized; most of the list of all the various PR venues is modern tech, compared to what was available in 1975. -All I know is people deal with their emotions, their grief in many ways. A family has to carry on without a loved one. IMO -Silence isn’t necessarily giving up but a way to cope with the aftermath, and perhaps after two or three decades, no one gives up, but there is an understandable resignation of hope.

 

[epiphany]

SMB

He [SL's Father] worked for Wagner College and certain days SL and he traveled together.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #1


Who drove Sylvia to WC on the days her Father did not?

 

[alliemay]

SMB

He [SL's Father] worked for Wagner College and certain days SL and he traveled together.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #1


Who drove Sylvia to WC on the days her Father did not?

That's a really good question, I would think that because the BF/F would either have been working or going to school himself, not sure? Did Eva have a driver's license or did another friend drive her, maybe one from school? Did she take the bus? Wonder how we can find out.

 

[rosemadderlake]

BBM: Does she? Not if BF/F told her it happened at 6. If a BF showed up at my house saying my daughter took off like that, the first Qs out of my mouth would have been where and when.

Besides, ASWDeer Hunter said SL left the house at 5 that day. So if it was EL's "time last seen" why wouldn't 5 be the time? And why wouldn't the "place last seen" be the L home on Goodall St.? If you're saying the time the BF/F last saw SL was hearsay from LE's POV, then wouldn't the location associated with that time also be hearsay? Why would they take one piece of secondhand info and not two?

I'm not trying to be argumentative ... maybe you all don't see it the same way? To me, suddenly, the time and place last seen are locked up tight. JMO.

GBMG- -Bringing this quote forward, again, & bbms: To question the time last seen on the PR was a really good thump on the head! What are we, five months down the road here on Sylvia’s thread? We look at this document, the PR, and make assumptions; oh the police take the time from one person and place from another which may not be the case at all. I make the assumption about a time stamp memo, same thing. It is also possible that it is a clerical error on the initial intake MP report.

-BUT, in thinking about the PR and last place and time seen:

Did Sylvia say - I’ll go to movie with so and so and take bus home? I would think they did not break up. -But what about the glasses? -Did he take her at her word, go cool off, go looking for her, not find her, and then go to MMQC & parents’ house?

Did she run from the car at 6pm after a break up, but why does the BF/F wait until after the movie time to alert everyone? He has the ring. He doesn’t want to be the one to tell this to anyone? He assumes SL goes to MMQC’s house? She is not there and he doesn’t tell MMQC what time he last saw her. He goes to the Lwowski house, she is not there, but he tells EL what time he last saw her. - EL does not tell MMQC because EL thinks MMQC knows where she is based on MMQC not telling EL Sylvia was with her when the BF/F said he was just there and MMQC was at the bus stop? Perhaps some critical information was not communicated between El & MMQC in the beginning, only by virtue of how it played out.
,
Wonder if the Lwowski family was home that evening? Did SL know El and JL plans? Did Mr. Lwowski have one spot that he liked to enjoy his beer? -Not knowing the layout of the house, could SL slip in, grab some things and slip out unnoticed? I’m thinking more along spontaneous lines, not planned.

What was the story that the BF/F told his family and friends, and SL’s & his friends? -Same one as the Lwowski family? Whether it is fiction or not, could there be another version of the story out there, rumor on the street in 1975?

...that we are not aware of?

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Shortened by me for a partial reply:

Wonder if the Lwowski family was home that evening?

T2, Post 369, by ASWDeerHunter: [Re my Q: "ASWDeerHunter, can you tell us who was home at the Lwowski residence when the BF arrived to tell what happened to Sylvia?"]: "Both parents and the son."

 

[rosemadderlake]

Shortened by me for a partial reply:



T2, Post 369, by ASWDeerHunter: [Re my Q: "ASWDeerHunter, can you tell us who was home at the Lwowski residence when the BF arrived to tell what happened to Sylvia?"]: "Both parents and the son."

Yes, at 10:30; what about earlier?

...Ok I'm confused! Your link above goes to ASW ans. to Skeet's Q #366. -

Originally Posted by skeet View Post
MMQC - do you recall what the roads were like that led to the mall, was it a major highway at that time or were there some residential homes near by, just wondering if it were possible that if they were at a red light, if she jumped out of the car was it then possible for her to run through back yards of a near by neighborhood?

The major road taken from SL home to the mall area where the theater was would be Richmond Ave. The route would have been Goodall Street to Hyland Blvd. or Nelson Ave to Richmond Ave to the theater. The Nelson Ave route would have taken them thru Snake Hill thru the golf course behind the Staten Island Mall.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

GBMG- -Bringing this quote forward, again, & bbms: To question the time last seen on the PR was a really good thump on the head! What are we, five months down the road here on Sylvia’s thread? We look at this document, the PR, and make assumptions; oh the police take the time from one person and place from another which may not be the case at all. I make the assumption about a time stamp memo, same thing. It is also possible that it is a clerical error on the initial intake MP report.

-BUT, in thinking about the PR and last place and time seen:

Did Sylvia say - I’ll go to movie with so and so and take bus home? I would think they did not break up. -But what about the glasses? -Did he take her at her word, go cool off, go looking for her, not find her, and then go to MMQC & parents’ house?

Did she run from the car at 6pm after a break up, but why does the BF/F wait until after the movie time to alert everyone? He has the ring. He doesn’t want to be the one to tell this to anyone? He assumes SL goes to MMQC’s house? She is not there and he doesn’t tell MMQC what time he last saw her. He goes to the Lwowski house, she is not there, but he tells EL what time he last saw her. - EL does not tell MMQC because EL thinks MMQC knows where she is based on MMQC not telling EL Sylvia was with her when the BF/F said he was just there and MMQC was at the bus stop? Perhaps some critical information was not communicated between El & MMQC in the beginning, only by virtue of how it played out.
,
Wonder if the Lwowski family was home that evening? Did SL know El and JL plans? Did Mr. Lwowski have one spot that he liked to enjoy his beer? -Not knowing the layout of the house, could SL slip in, grab some things and slip out unnoticed? I’m thinking more along spontaneous lines, not planned.

What was the story that the BF/F told his family and friends, and SL’s & his friends? -Same one as the Lwowski family? Whether it is fiction or not, could there be another version of the story out there, rumor on the street in 1975?

...that we are not aware of?

All reasonable lines of thought, Rose. I think we all have some version of these questions (BBM 1, 2, & 4), and others, running around our heads. I know I do. But IMO the bottom line is that we don't have info to answer them with. It troubles me that even the info we do have doesn't fit together very well. One approach may be to question what we think we "know," but without another source of info, that may not get us very far either.

BBM3: MMQC tells us the BF/F told her he left Sylvia at a bus stop. Based on that, I don't think he thought SL was at MMQC's house (BBM):

Thread 1, partial post, by MMQC: "... BF/F came to my house that night to ask that I go and pick her up from the Bus Stop. It was after 10 PM ..."