NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[rosemadderlake]

Cropped by me to add something about this one point:



One other thing occurs to me: As upset as she surely was, she was detailed and specific about what SL was wearing and had with her.

bbm: This is true, El was specific - So, if BF/F last saw SL at 6pm, wonder why that piece is not included in NamUs, CP, and Websleuths? Why do we have one piece (BF/F return time to SL's house), and not the other (BF/F time last seen) in the details of disappearance?

 

[rosemadderlake]

bbm: Another thought - On the PR, could 6pm be the last seen time El saw SL w/ BF/F? She is filing report, don't they want to know what time she last saw her daughter?

Timeline:
Sat. 5 or 6 PM: BF/F picks SL up at home for their date. ASWDeerHunter: “BF/F came over to the residents around 5pm to see a movie Sylvia at a cinema about 20 min away.” Alternate time of “6 PM” added as per PR.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9145230&highlight=uncertainty#post9145230

 

[GoingByMyGut]

bbm: This is true, El was specific - So, if BF/F last saw SL at 6pm, wonder why that piece is not included in NamUs, CP, and Websleuths? Why do we have one piece (BF/F return time to SL's house), and not the other (BF/F time last seen) in the details of disappearance?

I may not understand what you are asking, Rose, but here goes.

I interpret what Namus says as meaning that SL has not been seen since she ran from the BF/F (i.e., he was the last one to see her):
"On September 6, 1975, Sylvia went out with her fiance to a movie. He returned stating that during an argument, she thew her glasses against the dashboard and ran from the car. Sylvia has not been seen since."

And they give the date and time last seen as:
"Date last seen: September 06, 1975 18:30"

And Richard, who started the WS thread, cites NamUS as his source.

(The 6 [PR]/6:30 [NamUS] discrepancy was discussed in Thread 1.)

 

[rosemadderlake]

Ok, thanks for the Namus correction, GBMG - – I guess I am wondering why this piece has not been more prominent in importance (?) until recently? And, not really a part of the discussion, and this detail was not included in the VI posts, either. The glasses have been front and center.

I guess I am shocked because I had it in my brain that 6pm was the last time the family saw SL for the last 5 months! I assumed (auto-pilot) this because of exact 24 hour time span between “last seen” and time MP report was filed.

We don’t really know when the BF/F last saw Sylvia, or where, and to look at this window of time because the BF/F told the family what time Sylvia ran from the car brings up the question, why did he wait until 10, 10:30 to alert everyone?… I don’t know, to me this is a much bigger piece than the glasses.

 

[alliemay]

There could be two different reasons why he waited. One, he did something to harm her. Two, if the argument was about something he knew Sylvia would not want her parents to know about, he might wait. Also if he had assumed that she went to her friends to "cool" off one might wait to announce that someone is in fact missing. Those are the only two reasons I can think of right now.

 

[rosemadderlake]

All good reasons you point out, Skeet. I guess it is the asking MMQC to pick her up at the bus stop four hours later that has me confused, suddenly!

If he did her harm, I don't know, along with the glasses seems like a flimsy creation of an alibi that actually makes him look guilty. Maybe he didn't see it that way at the time.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

There could be two different reasons why he waited. One, he did something to harm her. Two, if the argument was about something he knew Sylvia would not want her parents to know about, he might wait. Also if he had assumed that she went to her friends to "cool" off one might wait to announce that someone is in fact missing. Those are the only two reasons I can think of right now.

Agree. Probably additional reasons too. (3) If SL broke up with him, his ego could be wounded, and her behavior (running away from him) made it clear she didn't want to see him, so he hung back. (4) He was looking for her elsewhere. (5) He was talking about what happened with a friend of family member, who eventually encouraged him to check for her at home/tell her parents.

Did he go to the L's to report her missing? to look for her? It's interesting -- in his later convos w MMQC ("and she takes off" ... "made a sucker of"). He seems to think SL ran away. Is this what he reported to EL/JL? Is that why they went to LE so quickly?

ETA: (6) SL or someone else could have told him she'd be taking a particular bus. (7) Memories about exactly what was said that night could be hazy (game of "telephone" comes to mind). (8) He could have lied about the time he last saw her.

 

[rosemadderlake]

--We’ve been posting along speculating about; did he produce movie tix, dinner beforehand, waiting at bus in the dark, running through the back way in the dark, going to the ice cream parlor after movie, BF/F goes over to GF house after movie to ask her to go pick up SL, how late the buses run on SI, etc….

If SL ran from car at 6pm, they never saw a movie. It was early. How come we (I) didn’t know that in a more concrete way before?

If this piece of the BF/F story is the truth, it opens up more possibilities than if she ran from car after the movie because of that four hour window, and for all the reasons, and theories, and speculations, which have been tabled over the last couple of days. -What really happened to her?

There is the obvious BF/F did her in, but if not? Where did she go?

 

[alliemay]

http://pix11.com/2013/08/15/police-...sing-young-staten-island-woman/#axzz2cbXSSSzh

O/T for Sylvia Lwowski, but on topic for an area of interest we have talked about on here. I feel sorry for the family of this missing girl who was pregnant at the time she went missing. Hope they can find some closure.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

http://pix11.com/2013/08/15/police-...sing-young-staten-island-woman/#axzz2cbXSSSzh

O/T for Sylvia Lwowski, but on topic for an area of interest we have talked about on here. I feel sorry for the family of this missing girl who was pregnant at the time she went missing. Hope they can find some closure.

Thx for sharing the link, Skeet. It's sickening to me that the body was found in Willowbrook Park -- for obvious reasons, but also bc of the history of the grounds.

 

[alliemay]

http://www.silive.com/transportation/index.ssf/2008/09/blasts_from_our_busriding_past.html

The "C" Branch bus leaving Great Kills at 8:20 may have lacked cushioned seats, but its passengers were happy to leave on time. They completed the run along Hylan Blvd. and reached the bridge by 8:40.

Seems like there may have been some private buses at that time as well. Now to try and find which one's ran past the mall, and what time the last bus would have ran. Looking for hole's in the "story".

 

[GoingByMyGut]

http://www.silive.com/transportation/index.ssf/2008/09/blasts_from_our_busriding_past.html

The "C" Branch bus leaving Great Kills at 8:20 may have lacked cushioned seats, but its passengers were happy to leave on time. They completed the run along Hylan Blvd. and reached the bridge by 8:40.

Seems like there may have been some private buses at that time as well. Now to try and find which one's ran past the mall, and what time the last bus would have ran. Looking for hole's in the "story".

Jumping off of your post, Skeet: Here's a map of the route described in the article (my first, hope it works bc I'm out the door in 5 minutes). If that route took 20 minutes during rush hour in 1968 (I'm starting at Goodall, but the bus stop may have been slightly farther north), the route from Goodall across the island to the theater could have been a breeze, depending on the time of day. I wonder, in the absence of heavy traffic, if you could sometimes make it in 10 minutes? Puts a little perspective on how everyone got around that night -- such as the trips to look around the mall for SL, the drive from the theater to MMQC's house (which I think I remember is near SL's, right?), etc.

 

[Dushi]

I have been reading prior posts about the last seen time.

Still not sure about it all
If Mom was giving the statement to the police, it seems that the 6PMish time was when she last saw sylvia.

It seems to me that BF/F led people to assume that he dropped her off much later at a bus stop.
Asking MMQC to go find her at the buststop. Why would anyone think she would still be there hours later... unless they were left with the impression that BF/F had just left her

 

[rosemadderlake]

A place is like a fingerprint -don’t remember if this link to Secret SI has been posted before, but the list of geological hiding places is really long.

http://www.secretsi.com/2012/07/21/olde/

The 70’s was probably the last era of a teetering balance of nature and civilization before it hit a critical mass of people with subsequent development that paved over everything, built high density housing and malls on every square inch of wetlands that they could, and added an expressway running through it. Still, I am amazed at the natural wonders of Staten Island.

Sylvia must have had a few favorite places on this list. -I am sure every Staten Islander knows some of these places like the back of their hand. College kids have their favorite spots too. -I wonder if there was a shared love of nature in SL’s relationship. There are those who are detached from nature, see a place like SI as a dump, as a useful means to an end, whether tossing their trash out the car window, or knowing where the ancient burial grounds may be…

 

[epiphany]

Would there have been more traffic at one time than the other: 6/6:30 PM - closer to start of the movie versus traffic situation at closer to 10 PM (mall closed about 9:30 PM; Farrell's still open?)?

At this point, I don't have the foggiest notion when she was last seen nor by whom.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I was rereading Thread 1 last night and this same controversy had us completely hung up in the early days of this discussion. As hard as it is to swallow, maybe we just don't have enough information to resolve what happened to Sylvia between 5-10 PM the night of Sept. 6, 1975.

At some point, I think we "decided" it made more sense to ignore 6 PM as possibly being the BF/F's time last seen bc it didn't agree with what MMQC said about the time he came to her home and asked her to pick SL up at the bus stop (10 PM). But is that a decision we can make just like that? How do we know we are right? Does it potentially change or distort the facts of the case? Because to me, "things not fitting together" properly, in spite of the integrity of our VIs, could be emblematic of a problem that we should perhaps pay more attention to. What does it tell us? I don't know either! I don't know why the BF/F might tell MMQC to pick SL up from the bus stop at 10 PM and tell EL he last saw SL at 6 PM. I have no idea why ASWDH's date pickup time; the "time last seen" on the PR; and the BF/F's tale to MMQC about the bus stop might not fit together. I don't know what we are missing. But I think we must be missing something.

Some more thoughts about "time last seen:"

• If 6 PM is EL's "time last seen," where did ASWDeerHunter get 5 PM from as the time the BF/F picked SL up for their date? At 16, was he observant enough to make note of it himself? Or would he have gotten this from EL?

• If 6 PM is EL's "time last seen," how does it fit with the "place last seen" of K-Mart Plaza? Was EL at K-Mart Plaza? Did she see SL and the BF/F there herself? I do not think we have any actual statements that EL was at home when SL was picked up by the BF/F, so should we consider this possibility?

• If EL was home when the BF/F picked SL up for their date, WHY -- when she is so specific about the details of what SL was wearing and carrying when she disappeared -- would she be confused about the time she herself last saw her? (And why would this time be different that what ASWDeerHunter relayed?)

• I think it would be helpful to know, procedurally, if this is something LE would allow on an MP report: a "time and place last seen" that don't agree. IOW, time by one person, place by another. What does that tell LE? That the MP was in two places at once?!

• When EL called LE Sat. night, ASWDeerHunter says they told her she couldn't file a report until her daughter had been missing for 24 hours. The fact that EL showed up at 6 PM on the nose the next day to file the report suggests to me that by 6 PM Sunday, EL believed SL was MISSING for 24 hours. If she had meant 6 PM as the time SHE last saw SL, that would not be the case.

• EL called LE Sat. night after she came home from searching the mall for her daughter. If she knew the BF/F had left SL at a bus stop less than an hour earlier, would her level of alarm be that high? This is a judgment call, but many of us questioned in Thread 1 why EL declared SL a MP so quickly. IMO, two things may have caused her to hit the alarm button: (1) SL last being seen by the BF/F at 6 PM (already 4.5 hours "missing," as she has not come home), and (2) the BF/F relaying something he heard or SL told him about running away (pure speculation based on his comment of "she takes off").

• Prior to arriving at the 122nd precinct Sunday to file a MP report on her daughter, EL spent what I assume must have been at least two hours with MMQC Sunday morning, searching for SL. In that time, MMQC presumably told EL what she told us: That the the BF/F came to her house at 10 PM Sat. night saying he and SL had a fight "after the movie," that he left her at a bus stop, and that he wanted MMQC to pick SL up. Knowing this, when she went to the precinct later the same day, why wouldn't EL relay a "time and place last seen" of "9:45 PM" and "K-Mart Plaza"? Wouldn't she want LE to have the most accurate information possible in the interest of SL being found? Why would she report "K-Mart Plaza" but "6 PM?" Not even a hesitant "6-10 PM"?

As I have said, I lean toward a "time and place last seen" that agree. We can respectfully agree to disagree until we have more information. At the very least, I think we have to recognize that the pieces of our puzzle do not fit together neatly. I will be more than happy to give up my POV with verification of what "time and place last seen" really mean. It wouldn't be the first time in my life that something that made absolutely no sense to me turned out to be true anyway

 

[alliemay]

Does anyone know what time "0720" HRS., on a police report would mean?

 

[rosemadderlake]

Does anyone know what time "0720" HRS., on a police report would mean?

A cryptic question!

1. three days
2. 7:20 AM

 

[rosemadderlake]

I am thinking today that if the BF/F told the family she bolted from car at 6pm and contacted two households at 10pm, it would be a different legend, and we would be asking different questions.

For EL to withhold, maybe from LE, the 'throwing of the glasses on the dash' from the details in 1975 (MMQC did not know) tells me she was treading carefully on her daughters behalf. But, if the BF/F had big fight with Sylvia and she ran off at 6pm, why wouldn't he call her house, find out if she is there, and say, 'she stormed out at the mall, have her call me?'

At face value, IF SL storms off at 10pm, the story, makes sense that the BF/F would see if MMQC would go get her. And then over to her parents house. Maybe it has happened before? Which I am not sure would necessarily be shared in a semi public forum. Maybe El's alarm bells go off because she knows from SL what the trouble is about (fight was about).

The golden nugget this week? It is good to question what we think we know.

 

[Jmoose]

Does anyone know what time "0720" HRS., on a police report would mean?

I'm pretty sure that that's military time=7:20am. Did you see that someplace?