NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[GoingByMyGut]

Wish I could find more on Rand's whereabouts in 75, in the meantime I continue to be surprised at much this man was able to get away with.

"In 1983, while working for a school bus company in Staten Island, he was charged with unlawful imprisonment for taking several elementary schoolchildren on an unauthorized outing to New Jersey, officials said. He was convicted and sentenced to 10 months in jail."

BBM: Given Rand's proclivity for children, I'm surprised to find that he worked as a school bus driver! I wonder how long he held that job. I would think the temptation would have been so strong that there would be even more missing children -- esp. if his MO was already established (i.e., if he was indeed responsible, as is thought, for Alice Pereira in 1972; he had already been convicted for the attempted rape of a 9-year-old in 1969).

Is your quote from the NY Times article? I saw another write-up of this incident, but the way it was written made me think the "van" in the description was a personal vehicle (no mention of a job as bus driver). How is it that these kids got away unharmed by the "boogeyman"?! Here's the other version (BBM):

"On January 9, 1983, Rand collected eleven children from West Brighton, loaded them into a van, and set off on a five-hour jaunt into Newark, neglecting to ask parental permission.

They spent the day eating hamburgers and watching planes land at Newark airport, and while none of the children were harmed, Rand was arrested on charges of unlawful imprisonment, convicted in March and sentenced to ten months in jail. He was back on the street by August, listed as a suspect when ten-year-old Tiahese Jackson vanished on Staten Island. No trace of the three missing girls had been found by July 9, 1987, when 12-year-old Jennifer Schweiger disappeared from her home at Westerleigh."

ETA: The third of the three girls the quote refers to is seven-year-old Holly Hughes (1981).

 

[rosemadderlake]

Sylvia seems to have travelled by car and not public transportation. Sylvia’s father or MMQC drove her to and from college. I wonder if she was ever leered at or accosted on a MTA bus causing apprehension since then. Many young women had those experiences in the 70’s. –Often, it wasn’t talked about openly. When she had the fight and stormed out of the car, was taking the bus that night the “out of character” piece for her because of that known experience or fear? Did she accept a ride from someone because of it? Were the blockbuster movie crowds a factor?

Without knowing much about what her summer of ’75 was like, other than the pool party, I wonder if she had been stalked by someone, or pursued by someone else. She and MMQC were only separated by stalls in the ladies room while shopping that Saturday afternoon at the mall. What did she do that morning? Did she use the family car? Did she run errands? And where was she on Friday night?

I have a feeling Andre Rand was not the only bad guy running around back then either. I know that in the first few weeks when kids return to college, the crime rate spikes both in robberies and sexually oriented crimes. -Would a beautiful woman alone on a Saturday night in the 70’s, have been more vulnerable than today?

I think Fresh Kills Landfill is in close proximity to all of Staten Island but I don’t think it was necessarily that easy to just drive a body over there on a Saturday night after a movie, and not smell like the dump afterwards. But, if third party small businesses could obtain permits to dump directly it opens up many more possibilities (imo). And, there were also the lesser known landfills, too.

So, which way did she go? -Into the landfill at the hands of her fiancé? Or, who was the last person to see her after she stormed out of the car? Understandably a private investigator would track the bigger possibilities, all access points, hospitals, mental institutions, and the following of certain people. Perhaps it is only now the missed opportunities to search targeted areas, or verify she was seen at the movies, mall, ice cream shop, or on the MTA bus has come to light.

 

[Jmoose]

Sylvia seems to have travelled by car and not public transportation. Sylvia’s father or MMQC drove her to and from college. I wonder if she was ever leered at or accosted on a MTA bus causing apprehension since then. Many young women had those experiences in the 70’s. –Often, it wasn’t talked about openly. When she had the fight and stormed out of the car, was taking the bus that night the “out of character” piece for her because of that known experience or fear? Did she accept a ride from someone because of it? Were the blockbuster movie crowds a factor?

Without knowing much about what her summer of ’75 was like, other than the pool party, I wonder if she had been stalked by someone, or pursued by someone else. She and MMQC were only separated by stalls in the ladies room while shopping that Saturday afternoon at the mall. What did she do that morning? Did she use the family car? Did she run errands? And where was she on Friday night?

I have a feeling Andre Rand was not the only bad guy running around back then either. I know that in the first few weeks when kids return to college, the crime rate spikes both in robberies and sexually oriented crimes. -Would a beautiful woman alone on a Saturday night in the 70’s, have been more vulnerable than today?

I think Fresh Kills Landfill is in close proximity to all of Staten Island but I don’t think it was necessarily that easy to just drive a body over there on a Saturday night after a movie, and not smell like the dump afterwards. But, if third party small businesses could obtain permits to dump directly it opens up many more possibilities (imo). And, there were also the lesser known landfills, too.

So, which way did she go? -Into the landfill at the hands of her fiancé? Or, who was the last person to see her after she stormed out of the car? Understandably a private investigator would track the bigger possibilities, all access points, hospitals, mental institutions, and the following of certain people. Perhaps it is only now the missed opportunities to search targeted areas, or verify she was seen at the movies, mall, ice cream shop, or on the MTA bus has come to light.

I think at the time, the police treated Sylvia's disappearance like any other disappearance of an adult-the right of any adult to go where they please, and nobody else's business...after a while, and certainly by now, I am sure that the detectives of the 122 precinct realize that she was likely killed that night (I'm sorry ASWDH and MMQC!). There certainly were some missed opportunities that only now have come to light in retrospect-it really is hard to bear the thought that if a murderer makes sure that there is no evidence of foul play, they're safely out of trouble, because the police cannot investigate them, or even question them.

The landfill makes a lot of sense to me, regardless of who may have killed Sylvia, in whatever way it happened

 

[GoingByMyGut]

This is where I was going the other day-could a person easily get into a landfill-any landfill? I envision lots and lots of chainlink fencing, and limited access by way of gates at various places. I have been to Staten Island once at night, and it was a long time ago (early 80's)-do not remember the dump at all. Our detective friend did suggest the dump as a place where Sylvia could have ended up, considering the proximity to the shopping center on Richmond Ave. If that is the case, then she won't be found, and that bothers me more than anything. For me, it is mostly about finding Sylvia, and less about punishing someone, especially if it's Andre Rand.

BBM: I think it's unlikely that the whole place was fenced in. I remember going to the local dump here with my father to dispose of big things back in the day. I don't remember a lot of security at the time. Today, you need to go when Public Works has the place open. Fresh Kills was so big (2200 acres, acc. to this website; pic below), even if it was fenced, I am envisioning easy access. The seaport would have been busy with trash shipping in from NYC, but there were probably other entry points for different uses -- some for local trash haulers, maybe north and south entries for residents. In any case, they couldn't man the whole perimeter. There would probably be places where the fence was torn or broken. And how hard would it be to use wire cutters to get in at some point that was more isolated than others? The stories of mafia hit men using it as a body drop suggests to me that it was very easy, very private access. JMO

Here's a rendering of Fresh Kills relative to the rest of SI:

 

[GoingByMyGut]

[/B]

I think at the time, the police treated Sylvia's disappearance like any other disappearance of an adult-the right of any adult to go where they please, and nobody else's business...after a while, and certainly by now, I am sure that the detectives of the 122 precinct realize that she was likely killed that night (I'm sorry ASWDH and MMQC!). There certainly were some missed opportunities that only now have come to light in retrospect-it really is hard to bear the thought that if a murderer makes sure that there is no evidence of foul play, they're safely out of trouble, because the police cannot investigate them, or even question them.

The landfill makes a lot of sense to me, regardless of who may have killed Sylvia, in whatever way it happened

To me, too. The problem (for me) is that there are other places on SI where it might be very unlikely for a body to be discovered for a very long time -- if ever. I can't help holding out hope that she is in one of those places and will one day be recovered.

 

[FrankD]

If she did get on the Richmond Ave bus there should of been witnesses! Did the family put up missing posters of her at the bus stop and around Mall area? Did the B/F help or did he stay out of sight?

 

[alliemay]

It might be good to read previous threads on her, there was a lot of talk about the "no publicity" on the police report and also the BF/F's lack of involvement afterwards.

Thanks GBMG for posting that link, yes it was the NY Times.

 

[StJohn]

Had never heard of Andre Rand before following this thread. Looked him up on the internet and after reading several articles about him it occurred to me that Rand's MO was very similar to a more recently identified serial killer, Gary Michael Hilton. For anyone who hasn't heard of Hilton, he was a vagrant who camped in various areas mostly in northern Georgia. He never appeared to go for a "type" in selecting his victims, and at least twice he forced his victims to drive to ATM's and withdraw money for him prior to killing them. He is known to have raped at least one of his victims, Meredith Emerson, a young woman who was hiking with her dog in a Georgia park. One of the similarities to Rand seems to be that both he and Hilton seemed to sometimes operate in an opportunistic fashion. I wonder if Rand's motive in choosing adult victims could have included robbery? And could Rand have spotted Sylvia walking alone with her purse on her arm and saw this as an opportunity to kill and rob at the same time?

Like all of you, I would like to think that Sylvia developed amnesia and is living somewhere happy and oblivious to who she is and to the pain of the people who miss her. Gosh, I wish we knew more about what happened that night.

 

[rosemadderlake]

If she did get on the Richmond Ave bus there should of been witnesses! Did the family put up missing posters of her at the bus stop and around Mall area? Did the B/F help or did he stay out of sight?

Bbm: Now that the word is out there maybe someone will remember something. I remember seeing One flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in 1975. That was a long time ago. I am not sure I'd remember who I ran into at the theater but I might remember a woman storming off in traffic.

 

[Dushi]

If she did get on the Richmond Ave bus there should of been witnesses! Did the family put up missing posters of her at the bus stop and around Mall area? Did the B/F help or did he stay out of sight?

I am not sure that her presence on a bus would be noticed at all.
We are told they had a fight. We are told she stormed out of the car
We do not know how she may have conducted herself after that.
Unless someone was behaving oddly, I certainly would not remember who I rode the bus with. We don't know that she behaved oddly.

If there was no investigation, then nobody riding a bus would have been questioned.

The family requested no publicity.
The public was not aware of anything

 

[alliemay]

I still can't find a link to verify how late the buses ran on a Saturday night.

 

[Jmoose]

BBM: Given Rand's proclivity for children, I'm surprised to find that he worked as a school bus driver! I wonder how long he held that job. I would think the temptation would have been so strong that there would be even more missing children -- esp. if his MO was already established (i.e., if he was indeed responsible, as is thought, for Alice Pereira in 1972; he had already been convicted for the attempted rape of a 9-year-old in 1969).

Is your quote from the NY Times article? I saw another write-up of this incident, but the way it was written made me think the "van" in the description was a personal vehicle (no mention of a job as bus driver). How is it that these kids got away unharmed by the "boogeyman"?! Here's the other version (BBM):

"On January 9, 1983, Rand collected eleven children from West Brighton, loaded them into a van, and set off on a five-hour jaunt into Newark, neglecting to ask parental permission.

They spent the day eating hamburgers and watching planes land at Newark airport, and while none of the children were harmed, Rand was arrested on charges of unlawful imprisonment, convicted in March and sentenced to ten months in jail. He was back on the street by August, listed as a suspect when ten-year-old Tiahese Jackson vanished on Staten Island. No trace of the three missing girls had been found by July 9, 1987, when 12-year-old Jennifer Schweiger disappeared from her home at Westerleigh."

ETA: The third of the three girls the quote refers to is seven-year-old Holly Hughes (1981).

I read that he worked for a school bus company-but he may not have worked as a bus driver. He may have worked back at the bus garage, maybe washing and cleaning the buses, and possibly (hopefully) had no contact with any additional children aside from the ones he is suspected of harming, and these kids he took on the van.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I read that he worked for a school bus company-but he may not have worked as a bus driver. He may have worked back at the bus garage, maybe washing and cleaning the buses, and possibly (hopefully) had no contact with any additional children aside from the ones he is suspected of harming, and these kids he took on the van.

BBM: True -- so it's unclear as to whether the van was a personal vehicle or one owned by the school bus company (that's what I was thinking -- you know, one of the smaller vehicles they use for transporting kids to specialized programs).

 

[Jmoose]

BBM: True -- so it's unclear as to whether the van was a personal vehicle or one owned by the school bus company (that's what I was thinking -- you know, one of the smaller vehicles they use for transporting kids to specialized programs).

Were these random neighborhood kids or kids from some program that they were supposed to attend? Maybe the news accounts didn't say. It seems unlikely that he could have gotten a job as a bus driver with his record, but stranger things have happened

 

[FrankD]

Were these random neighborhood kids or kids from some program that they were supposed to attend? Maybe the news accounts didn't say. It seems unlikely that he could have gotten a job as a bus driver with his record, but stranger things have happened

I remember when this happened, I think it was at the YMCA on Broadway next to the SI Zoo! I haven't been able to locate any articles on him working as a cabbie but I might of heard it from an old timer from the North Shore! I remember Sam's Cabs to be black cabs with white lettering on the door.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Were these random neighborhood kids or kids from some program that they were supposed to attend? Maybe the news accounts didn't say. It seems unlikely that he could have gotten a job as a bus driver with his record, but stranger things have happened

There aren't enough details to be positive. The Daily News article that is so often cited for Rand (starts about 1/3 of the way down this page) says (BBM):

"And in January 1983, Rand drove to a Staten Island YMCA, enticed 11 children into his van and drove to Elizabeth, N.J., where he treated them to White Castle hamburgers. He then took them to Newark Airport, where they watched planes arrive and depart. On return to the YMCA five hours later, Rand was charged with unlawful imprisonment and served 10 months in jail."

Earlier on the same site -- in the first article -- it says the kids were from West Brighton.

I can't imagine how he found 11 unattended kids at a local Y -- can you?! In January?! There's something they're not telling us -- maybe he was known to some of them? How do you move a group like that without some kind of angle working for you? That's why the bus connection suddenly made sense to me. Ys and schools have always worked together (e.g., swim therapy for kids with disabilities), so a van or bus between the places wouldn't be unthinkable.

BBM: Well, the "record" was from an incident in the South Bronx. How would a Staten Island district get wind of that sort of thing back then? Today everyone in NJ schools gets fingerprinted and gets background checks, which are all computerized, whether or not they have contact with kids (e.g., I'm in the database: They actually scan your fingertips with a little gadget -- no more inky fingertips). I remember getting fingerprinted as a sub the old-fashioned way in the 80s as well (special trip to the police station). Bus drivers may have been off the radar? I don't know. I do know that it wasn't unusual for school employees to fall through the cracks.

 

[alliemay]

I was thinking about the tunnels under the Willowbrook building, now abandoned, closing in 1987. Twelve years after Sylvia went missing. There was 375 acres. I have to wonder where "Friends of Jennifer" conduct their searches since now the College of Staten Island sits on 200 acres of the land. Another 170 is used by the OPWDD. That comes out to 370 acres.

Willowbrook State School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A portion of the grounds and some of the buildings were incorporated into the campus of the College of Staten Island, which moved to Willowbrook in the early 1990s. The rest of the buildings sit abandoned and dilapidated in the Staten Island Greenbelt."

The rest of the buildings, I wonder how many there are left? Maybe these buildings and the grounds around these buildings are where Friends of Jennifer search??

Staten Island Greenbelt - The gold course that Joe mentioned is part of the Staten Island Greenbelt.

"After the developmental center closed, the site became the focus of intense local debate about what should be done with the property. In 1989 a portion of the land was acquired by the city of New York, with the intent of using it to establish a new campus for the College of Staten Island, and the new campus opened at Willowbrook in 1993. At 0.8 square kilometers (200 acres), this campus is the largest maintained by the City University of New York."

"The remaining 0.7 km2 (170 acres) of the state school's original property, at the south end, is still under the administration of the Office for People with Developmental Disabilities (OPWDD), an agency of the New York State Department of Mental Hygiene, and houses the New York State Institute for Basic Research in Developmental Disabilities and the Staten Island Developmental Disabilities Services Office."

So....I'm sure the College of Staten Island has many building's on the 200 acres they own. They would have had to excavate the land to construct these buildings. I would think that if there were something to be found (body wise, adult or child) that they would have found some remains, that's of course if their intent was to find missing people. If this was not their intent, would it be possible to overlook bones lifted by a back hoe, mixed with dirt, grass and tree roots? Hard to say, I just didn't realize how much acreage was involved with Willowbrook and also the Greenbelt. I guess when some say, "there are many places to hid a body" their not kidding, take your pick, the landfill or the area mentioned above. I really don't think one would have to drive out of state or very far for that matter to get rid of a body.

 

[alliemay]

Staten Island Register - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Staten Island Register was a weekly newspaper serving the borough of Staten Island in New York City as an independent alternative to other news sources, including the Staten Island Advance. It began publication in 1966....

"At least partial collections of the paper are available in the New York Public Library's main branch and the New York State Library in Albany."

To bad that don't have any archives on line for this newspaper.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I was thinking about the tunnels under the Willowbrook building, now abandoned, closing in 1987. Twelve years after Sylvia went missing. There was 375 acres. I have to wonder where "Friends of Jennifer" conduct their searches since now the College of Staten Island sits on 200 acres of the land. Another 170 is used by the OPWDD. That comes out to 370 acres.

Willowbrook State School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A portion of the grounds and some of the buildings were incorporated into the campus of the College of Staten Island, which moved to Willowbrook in the early 1990s. The rest of the buildings sit abandoned and dilapidated in the Staten Island Greenbelt."

The rest of the buildings, I wonder how many there are left? Maybe these buildings and the grounds around these buildings are where Friends of Jennifer search??

Staten Island Greenbelt - The gold course that Joe mentioned is part of the Staten Island Greenbelt.

"After the developmental center closed, the site became the focus of intense local debate about what should be done with the property. In 1989 a portion of the land was acquired by the city of New York, with the intent of using it to establish a new campus for the College of Staten Island, and the new campus opened at Willowbrook in 1993. At 0.8 square kilometers (200 acres), this campus is the largest maintained by the City University of New York."

"The remaining 0.7 km2 (170 acres) of the state school's original property, at the south end, is still under the administration of the Office for People with Developmental Disabilities (OPWDD), an agency of the New York State Department of Mental Hygiene, and houses the New York State Institute for Basic Research in Developmental Disabilities and the Staten Island Developmental Disabilities Services Office."

So....I'm sure the College of Staten Island has many building's on the 200 acres they own. They would have had to excavate the land to construct these buildings. I would think that if there were something to be found (body wise, adult or child) that they would have found some remains, that's of course if their intent was to find missing people. If this was not their intent, would it be possible to overlook bones lifted by a back hoe, mixed with dirt, grass and tree roots? Hard to say, I just didn't realize how much acreage was involved with Willowbrook and also the Greenbelt. I guess when some say, "there are many places to hid a body" their not kidding, take your pick, the landfill or the area mentioned above. I really don't think one would have to drive out of state or very far for that matter to get rid of a body.

BBM1: I wish they had a website, but if they do, I sure haven't been able to find it. Information about their past searches would be such good info to have. The only contact info I found was for DC, who runs it. It appears to be home contact info, so I shy away from using it. Perhaps LE is aware of where they've searched? They must be.

BBM2: In NJ, when there's a construction project of this scale, the DEP and Historic Preservation & Museum Commission put the construction project applicant through all kinds of hoops where excavation is concerned. At least one reason is that they consider these kinds of projects opportunities to find things of archeological significance, like evidence of prehistoric camp sites. There are procedures surrounding the early stages of excavation -- it's like an exploratory dig, run by state experts -- and if they find anything, the project can be slowed considerably because the goal of this "intervention" is to preserve any ancient remains or artifacts that are found. These kinds of things are also watched by university archeologists ... all waiting for the next big find.

I don't know how this is handled in New York. But we do often hear in the news about skeletal remains being found at construction sites so the possibility must be one someone's radar. While it's not a sure thing, I think there's a good chance that the disturbance of these 200 acres means SL's body was not there. This was only 15 years after SL's disappearance -- does anyone know what the level of decomposition would be after 15 years with an unprotected earthen burial? I am thinking the remains would be large and noticeable, but I don't actually know.

 

[Jmoose]

I was thinking about the tunnels under the Willowbrook building, now abandoned, closing in 1987. Twelve years after Sylvia went missing. There was 375 acres. I have to wonder where "Friends of Jennifer" conduct their searches since now the College of Staten Island sits on 200 acres of the land. Another 170 is used by the OPWDD. That comes out to 370 acres.

Willowbrook State School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A portion of the grounds and some of the buildings were incorporated into the campus of the College of Staten Island, which moved to Willowbrook in the early 1990s. The rest of the buildings sit abandoned and dilapidated in the Staten Island Greenbelt."

The rest of the buildings, I wonder how many there are left? Maybe these buildings and the grounds around these buildings are where Friends of Jennifer search??

Staten Island Greenbelt - The gold course that Joe mentioned is part of the Staten Island Greenbelt.

"After the developmental center closed, the site became the focus of intense local debate about what should be done with the property. In 1989 a portion of the land was acquired by the city of New York, with the intent of using it to establish a new campus for the College of Staten Island, and the new campus opened at Willowbrook in 1993. At 0.8 square kilometers (200 acres), this campus is the largest maintained by the City University of New York."

"The remaining 0.7 km2 (170 acres) of the state school's original property, at the south end, is still under the administration of the Office for People with Developmental Disabilities (OPWDD), an agency of the New York State Department of Mental Hygiene, and houses the New York State Institute for Basic Research in Developmental Disabilities and the Staten Island Developmental Disabilities Services Office."

So....I'm sure the College of Staten Island has many building's on the 200 acres they own. They would have had to excavate the land to construct these buildings. I would think that if there were something to be found (body wise, adult or child) that they would have found some remains, that's of course if their intent was to find missing people. If this was not their intent, would it be possible to overlook bones lifted by a back hoe, mixed with dirt, grass and tree roots? Hard to say, I just didn't realize how much acreage was involved with Willowbrook and also the Greenbelt. I guess when some say, "there are many places to hid a body" their not kidding, take your pick, the landfill or the area mentioned above. I really don't think one would have to drive out of state or very far for that matter to get rid of a body.

It is absolutely possible that remains could be overlooked while doing construction, and as you said, quite a large space to search for remains-kind of like looking for a needle in a haystack, I would think. I have always thought that Sylvia is still someplace on Staten Island, and not 2 1/2 hours away. To that end, I sent a note to Donna Cotugno of "Friends of Jennifer Schweiger", to tell her of Sylvia's disappearance, and to ask how and where they search, but have received no answer.